Non Continuation for passed over Majs

[matmacwc]

Well, it is the AIR Force

[Homestar]

I personally know two 11Ms that were non-continued. They have separation papers in hand. So pilots weren't immune.

[Guest Crew Report]

I personally know two 11Ms that were non-continued. They have separation papers in hand. So pilots weren't immune.

McConnell?

[tac airlifter]

And they pointed out quite directly that no pilots were cut in this group, only nav's and non-rated officers.

Not ture, I personally know x2 11S who made the list of 157.

[Rusty Pipes]

And they pointed out quite directly that no pilots were cut in this group, only nav's and non-rated officers. Just curious, how does that, the fact that they didnt push the pilot's out the door, affect everyone's thinking? It appears that the pilots in this group were getting the good deal, so might this not be reason for pilots to feel ok about staying in?

I know 3 11M's getting the boot... all 3 were completely blindsided. I know a larger group of 11M's who were just passed over for the first time on this last board that are stuck in limbo. The biggest bull shit about their situation is that if they use the same criteria as this year's board then all but one of them (OTS grad with a Jan or Feb service date) will have the same fate next year, but they're being kept in the dark. The biggest dilemma for them is whether or not to punch out now while there is a chance they can get on with the Guard or Res at 14+ yrs in or wait to see what happens. Of course if they do that then they don't get the $120K (pre-tax) invol-sep pay, so they walk away with literally nothing. If they wait then they will probably have a much harder time finding a unit that will hire a 15+ yr guy... especially one that is twice passed over!

It is sickening to see the AF putting these guys and their families in this situation! Of the guys I know, two of them have the wife who doesn't work to stay home with the young kids so they are the sole earner in the house. The other's wife had a really good job when they got married and would have most definitely been making more money than him right now, but had to essentially put her career on hold for the past 10 yrs because she had to obviously follow him to shitty locations where they didn't have good jobs in her career field (and its not like she can just jump back into the industry and make $150K after being out of it for so long). Just like the rest of us, these guys and their families sacrificed what was by every account the most important 10-15 yrs of their lives by saluting sharply and just taking every shitty TDY/deployment that came their way... literally years away from their families; and this is how Big Blue thanks them?!? And for the guys who were just passed over for the first time who have done the same exact thing, they don't even have the moral courage to be straight with them? Hmmm... I don't remember seeing any of this come up during the "Year of the Family" e-mails or power point slides!

I have one buddy (11M/Eval Pilot) who finally had to show his cards to his boss last week when he turned down a PCS telling him that he was going to be getting out next fall when his UPT ADSC is up (I'm sure the 179 to shit hole X will be soon to follow), but more importantly know 3 other guys in the same year group who said they are waiting to see what happens to the guys just passed over this year to see if they get booted next year to decide what they're going to do. These are the fence sitters that everyone keeps talking about and the AF is making their decision pretty easy; the topic came up in a discussion about all of them scheduling their ATP, which tells you what direction they are most likely leaning in... all from the same Sq! I know a few guys down at AFPC (O-3 to O-5 types) who see the writing on the wall and are screaming as loud as they can (mostly because they know the mess they're going to have to deal with), but nobody in management is listening.

I really hope that they are way smarter than all of us who can see the writing on the wall and there won't be a mass exodus of pilots in the next few years for all the various reasons, but the track record shows that they are simply looking at dealing with today and saying we'll deal with tomorrow... tomorrow! Not only does this suck for the guys who are getting pink slips after 15+ yrs, but what is going to happen to those of us left behind? The guys getting booted or who will be leaving, for the most part, are your line flyers who have been taking the brunt of the last 9 yrs on the road. Your fast burners will still be off at some High Flight deal or planning the Wing Change of Command or doing Habitat for Humanity... and we all know that there is no way that the Ops tempo and 179's will go down. That leaves us with the guys who can't get out because of ADSC and the guys who have 4-5 yrs left until retirement that aren't on the command track and currently flying the line who are going to once again carry the extra weight.

Again, I'm not sitting in the meeting with the CSAF or the boss at AFPC when they are discussing this and therefore don't have the ever elusive "Big Picture". Those guys wearing stars on their shoulders are way smarter than this crew dawg... even with my rather impressive and extremely marketable Embry Riddle masters!!! Unfortunately they are always surrounded by a bunch of "yes men" who are either so far removed from the line (if they were ever really on it) or have just drank so much blue kool aide that they won't tell their boss what he DOESN'T want to hear. They may be brilliant and all of their town criers can yell "more with less" as loud as they want, but when you have those 5 lowly toll booth collectors and you suddenly cut it down to only two lowly toll booth collectors... you're going to cause a traffic jam that we're all going to have to sit in, no matter how brilliant you are or how many "yes men" you surround yourself with! We're in some pretty heavy traffic right now... I'm worried that we may end up in grid lock. Damn it... I knew I should have taken the train!!!

Edited July 19, 2011 by Rusty Pipes

[Van1]

I know an 11R getting the boot, so add another pilot to the list. I'm a 12R being shown the door. I was even inside 5 years of retirement eligibility when board met (TAFMSD of 26 Jan 96, May 96 OTS grad, board met in Mar 11). Apparently the board didn't closely follow the SECAF MOI. So for those once passed over OTS grads that signed on early in the year, I wouldn't look at the being within 5 as your golden ticket next year. Best thing would be to volunteer for RPAs now.

And as a side bar, according to AFI 36-2005, para 2.7.6, even rated dudes once passed over are ineligible for appointment with the Guard or Reserves. So, if you are once passed over might as roll the dice and see what happens next year before trying Guard or Reserves. Waiver process will be the same. Unless you have a Guard gig lined up already.

[ThreeHoler]

I know an 11R getting the boot, so add another pilot to the list. I'm a 12R being shown the door. I was even inside 5 years of retirement eligibility when board met (TAFMSD of 26 Jan 96, May 96 OTS grad, board met in Mar 11). Apparently the board didn't closely follow the SECAF MOI. So for those once passed over OTS grads that signed on early in the year, I wouldn't look at the being within 5 as your golden ticket next year. Best thing would be to volunteer for RPAs now.

And as a side bar, according to AFI 36-2005, para 2.7.6, even rated dudes once passed over are ineligible for appointment with the Guard or Reserves. So, if you are once passed over might as roll the dice and see what happens next year before trying Guard or Reserves. Waiver process will be the same. Unless you have a Guard gig lined up already.

As I understand it, you're eligible for retirement on 1 Feb 2016. Therefore, I would think either the line, "Majors who will qualify for retirement within five years of the convening date of the board shall normally be continued," or the line, "However, as we are in a period of force reductions you normally should not continue an officer with negative quality indicators documented in his or her record, or who will not qualify for retirement within five years of the convening date of the board, or who does not have a critical skill described above, unless it is clearly in the best interests of the Air Force to do so," applies to your situation.

I guess it all depends on what they consider "negative quality indicators documented in his or her record," but I'd sure as hell be raising a stink in your situation.

[SuperWSO]

And as a side bar, according to AFI 36-2005, para 2.7.6, even rated dudes once passed over are ineligible for appointment with the Guard or Reserves. So, if you are once passed over might as roll the dice and see what happens next year before trying Guard or Reserves. Waiver process will be the same. Unless you have a Guard gig lined up already.

Regarding the waiver process, A person I trust at AFPC (Very short list) told me that 12Xs are on the critically manned list in the reserves and are eligible for bonuses in some cases. Supposedly, they are going to provide a blanket waiver for twice passed over dudes on this board looking to transition to the Guard or Reserves. I don't know if that will continue to be the case as the ANG/AFR will have a limit to how many guys they can absorb. The good news is that there are still plenty of options at the moment.

PM me if you want additional details.

[Bergman]

Supposedly, they are going to provide a blanket waiver for twice passed over dudes on this board looking to transition to the Guard or Reserves.

Good news for those guys at least. Basically proves that this is nothing more than a thinly veiled RIF.

Big Blue on this one. Another fiasco in the making.

Fearless Prediction: NLT Dec 2013 the USAF will be offering incentives for rated officers to return to AD.

[matmacwc]

Good news for those guys at least. Basically proves that this is nothing more than a thinly veiled RIF.

Big Blue on this one. Another fiasco in the making.

Fearless Prediction: NLT Dec 2013 the USAF will be offering incentives for rated officers to return to AD.

Not so fearless, it's already on the fighter porch page, post if I have time tomorrow.

[SuperWSO]

Fearless Prediction: NLT Dec 2013 the USAF will be offering incentives for rated officers to return to AD.

I may have to post a question on the web site. "Do I have to complete my separation before volunteering for the Return to Active Duty Program?"

Actually, if I succeed in getting a job in the ANG/AFR, I will not be coming back voluntarily.

[Catbox]

I'm sure that there are some dirtbags being shown the door with this policy...

but in every flying squadron I've been in it was the passed over majors with nothing to lose who were the first to give the big F-U to crap like this:

Edited July 22, 2011 by Catbox

[HuggyU2]

"Do I have to complete my separation before volunteering for the Return to Active Duty Program?"

Two people in my squadron did it last year. I'm one of them.

We both left the AF on 31 Oct, and came back on active duty 1 Nov.

[SuperWSO]

Two people in my squadron did it last year. I'm one of them.

We both left the AF on 31 Oct, and came back on active duty 1 Nov.

I was joking - It doesn't sound like you are. How F'd up can this possibly get when I can't make up stupid shit that the AF hasn't already done.

[Hacker]

How F'd up can this possibly get when I can't make up stupid shit that the AF hasn't already done.

Is it really a surprise that, collectively and over time, that Big Blue can be more retarded than you can as just one individual in just one career span?

The possibilities for idiocy are endless!

[Van1]

As I understand it, you're eligible for retirement on 1 Feb 2016. Therefore, I would think either the line, "Majors who will qualify for retirement within five years of the convening date of the board shall normally be continued," or the line, "However, as we are in a period of force reductions you normally should not continue an officer with negative quality indicators documented in his or her record, or who will not qualify for retirement within five years of the convening date of the board, or who does not have a critical skill described above, unless it is clearly in the best interests of the Air Force to do so," applies to your situation.

I guess it all depends on what they consider "negative quality indicators documented in his or her record," but I'd sure as hell be raising a stink in your situation.

I'm trying to raise a stink but talking with anybody at AFPC is like talking to a wall. I do have the attention of both of my state's senators which is nice. We'll see what they can do. I already have a job offer from one of the contractors on base that pays the same as my current base pay (nice to have a TS SCI). If I can work a traditional Guard gig as well with the unit on base, I'll be set. And in fact better off as I won't have to worry about 179s and 365s.

[Rusty Pipes]

A guy in my Sq was recently passed over for the 1st time and talked to some Lt Col promotions shoe down at AFPC for his "non-selection counseling". The short story is that he was told that due to over manning, when he likely gets passed over for the second time next year that he will most likely not be offered continuation and it was suggested that he should start preparing for that. So he then tells the shoe that the Res Sq at his base told him they were looking to hire someone and would love to hire him... he just needed to get out of the 1 year left in his PCS commitment. He asked what either the ADSC waiver or Palace Chase process would be or if he could point him in the right direction for who he needed to talk to about it. The shoe told him that he could apply if he wanted, but it was extremely unlikely that his Palace Chase package would even make it past the initial stages... BECAUSE HE IS IN A CRITICALLY MANNED CAREER FIELD!!!!!!!

Edited July 25, 2011 by Rusty Pipes

[matmacwc]

Tell him to apply anyway, shoe's know nothing.

[hobbitcid]

Really sad... I saw first hand the Major RIF in the early 90's. The difference here is that during that RIF, majors who could reach 15 years were offered early retirement with a penalty for years lost. Big time unfair but still the money and the benefits were there. I had a few friends in that group and they were told - OK you've been passed over once - you can retire or you can take your chances with the next board. You lose that board you are out... Most took the money and ran. There were some knuckleheads that thought they could game the system and make it - they of course did not... But you cannot cure stupid... It is telling that this option was not offered this time and in my opinion unfair.

BTW, about three years later we were so short of officers that the USAF was offering 100 percent continuation to 20 years for Capts and 24 years for Majors. The sin wave of personnel mismanagement continues undisturbed by reality or common sense.

Hobbit

[Van1]

Found out another 11R that I know didn't get offered continuation. That's 2 11Rs I know of to add to the list. Pilots definitely not immune to these kinds of actions.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

A guy in my Sq was recently passed over for the 1st time and talked to some Lt Col promotions shoe down at AFPC for his "non-selection counseling". The short story is that he was told that due to over manning, when he likely gets passed over for the second time next year that he will most likely not be offered continuation and it was suggested that he should start preparing for that. So he then tells the shoe that the Res Sq at his base told him they were looking to hire someone and would love to hire him... he just needed to get out of the 1 year left in his PCS commitment. He asked what either the ADSC waiver or Palace Chase process would be or if he could point him in the right direction for who he needed to talk to about it. The shoe told him that he could apply if he wanted, but it was extremely unlikely that his Palace Chase package would even make it past the initial stages... BECAUSE HE IS IN A CRITICALLY MANNED CAREER FIELD!!!!!!!

Same here in tac airlift world. Had several people get the boot after not making Lt Col. Others are standing before a RIF board soon. Several others are applying for Palace Chase with minimal time left on their ADSCs and being told it likely will get disapproved due to manning. WTF?

[PolyestherDuck]

A guy in my Sq was recently passed over for the 1st time and talked to some Lt Col promotions shoe down at AFPC for his "non-selection counseling". The short story is that he was told that due to over manning, when he likely gets passed over for the second time next year that he will most likely not be offered continuation and it was suggested that he should start preparing for that. So he then tells the shoe that the Res Sq at his base told him they were looking to hire someone and would love to hire him... he just needed to get out of the 1 year left in his PCS commitment. He asked what either the ADSC waiver or Palace Chase process would be or if he could point him in the right direction for who he needed to talk to about it. The shoe told him that he could apply if he wanted, but it was extremely unlikely that his Palace Chase package would even make it past the initial stages... BECAUSE HE IS IN A CRITICALLY MANNED CAREER FIELD!!!!!!!

Tell him to get the guy's name and document all applications, etc. Why? There's a little thing called a "Congressional Complaint and Inquiry."

[ClearedHot]

FW: AFPOINTS, August 2011

3. Air Force offers voluntarily-recalled officers extension. Air Force Personnel Center officials is in the process of contacting selected rated officers brought back on to active duty in 2009 as part of the Voluntary Retired Rated Officer Recall Program and the Voluntary Rated Officer Limited Period Recall Program to encourage voluntary extensions. The voluntary extension is being offered specifically to fighter pilots, and in some cases navigators filling 11F, Fighter Pilot, billets already on extended active duty. Under the current recall program, extensions to current recall contracts are capped at a maximum of 48 months for the entire length of the original contract plus the extension. For some, this may allow up to an additional 24 months of active duty service.

The 2009 program voluntarily recalled pilots, navigators and air battle managers who were either in the air reserve components or retired as lieutenant colonels or below, and who were younger than 60 to come back onto active duty, said Lt. Col. Damon Menendez, AFPC Officer Accessions Branch chief. These officers were used in myriad positions including intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; rated staff; and other rated functions. With the extension, recalled retired officers may now stay past 62 years of age with an approved waiver, Menendez said. The voluntary extensions are being offered despite the Air Force’s downsizing efforts to meet the congressionally-mandated end strength of 322,800 Airmen by Sept. 30, 2012.

“We currently have too many people in the Air Force, but the overages are in the wrong Air Force Specialties,” Menendez said. “The Air Force regularly reviews its manpower and personnel capabilities to ensure they align with current, emerging and future Air Force missions. Today, one of our greatest needs is experienced fighter pilots. These recalled officers fill a void that would take years to cover. The skills and experience these officers possess is critical to our current and future success and their continued service to our nation is both desired and appreciated.” To submit an extension application, individuals should scan and e-mail a memorandum endorsed by the requesting member’s commander and senior rater to AFPC.DPPAES@US.AF.MIL for processing. Each extension request will be considered on a case-by-case basis.

[HuggyU2]

Ha! You knew this was coming.

And it will probably expand next year, when the 2010 recalls come up for the voluntary 1-year extension.

[Champ Kind]

the overages are in the wrong Air Force Specialties," Menendez said. .

I'd be curious to see what 11/12/13XX AFSCs have overages, according to AFPC.