Non Continuation for passed over Majs

[Bobby]

Navy just started offering retirement at 15yrs for enlisted. That's a good step that will thin the heard.

I herd that too...

[HossHarris]

I herd that too...

Ha!

[SuperWSO]

I know I am dredging up old news, but I remember a couple of people were planning legal action after being non-continued on the 2011 LC board. Anybody have any ideas what happened there? I decided to steer clear since I was going into a Guard job. At the time, it seemed like their best case scenario was to be let back in as a passed over Maj and spend 4 more years doing back to back 365s.

[Champ Kind]

Don't know anything about the 2011 guys, but all of the twice-passed over guys I know of from this year were offered continuance.

[Catbox]

I know I am dredging up old news, but I remember a couple of people were planning legal action after being non-continued on the 2011 LC board. Anybody have any ideas what happened there? I decided to steer clear since I was going into a Guard job. At the time, it seemed like their best case scenario was to be let back in as a passed over Maj and spend 4 more years doing back to back 365s.

Totally just a rumor, but I heard recently that these guys were very likely to win the case. Granted, I just heard this from a friend but his "friend of a friend" told him that everything from reinstatement to early retirement (with possible back payments to separation) were on the table. I am very curious to see when and if news comes out about this because it doesn't look good for the AF at all and the guys who are offered packages may by happy enough to not go public with the results.

Another very interesting development this year in passed over land is that we all have to submit PRFs, regardless of how many times you've met the ABZ board. There's no details from AFPC that I can find and my command is referring to me as promotion eligible. I have a feeling its a purely a paperwork drill but apparently this hasn't happened in a long time.

[Champ Kind]

Can the PRFs be blank with a "P" or is there a narrative required?

[sputnik]

No narrative required, but some senior raters might not be wiling to do it.

[albertschu]

Can the PRFs be blank with a "P" or is there a narrative required?

In my unit PRFs for BTZ and 2+ ATZ w/ 'P's were REQUIRED to be blank.

[Catbox]

Can the PRFs be blank with a "P" or is there a narrative required?

my boss required a narrative as if it was my in the zone board, but I highly, highly doubt I am going to get anything other than a P.

I know other people were doing a narrative as well but if others are being sent up blank and its not standardized across the community that's BS

[BitteEinBit]

Sorry, I know we're all busy and stuff, but if a PRF is ever being sent up blank, that is a foul and an absolute failure in leadership. Doesn't surprise me at all that some CCs are too lazy to write something for their people. Yes, I know, a BTZ P will probably not make the cut, but inputs from that PRF can still be used on subsequent PRFs.

If someone is APZ and has a blank PRF sent up that is an even bigger foul, because you're essentially writing off any chances of that officer ever being considered for promotion. I don't care how many APZ PRFs have been written on that guy, unless he is just a complete worthless bag-o-donuts, they should be considered for promotion. Yes, I've seen 5 times passed over Capts make Major (two of them, but still)....but that wouldn't have happened had their PRFs gone up blank. I'd rather a spineless CC just use "code" in a PRF rather than a blank one all together. I know it is common practice at many wings....I still consider it a fail.

[Rusty Pipes]

The whole system doesn't make sense if you ask me. BPZ and APZ are less than 1%, so essentially you have one chance to get promoted. Each Wing CC gets one BPZ DP to give, they should do the same for APZ as well. Having worked in the front office at the Group, Wing and on GO's Staff, every single time I was there for a board there was an O-6 or GO scratching his head wondering how the hell at least one person didn't get selected. You know they aren't going to use a DP on an APZ guy (extremely rare) and statistically you have a 0% chance of making O-5 with a P APZ... so what is the incentive for a pilot passed over as a Major to do anything but breathe and log IP time for the next 6+ years? I don't mean to cross threads here, but if you look at the new pay scale for the US Air/AA merger in 2017 you can START at $93K as a first year FO! Is that check of the month club worth sticking around to lose 6+ yrs of seniority when you can switch patches and pin on O-5 within 2 yrs across the street at the Res or Guard Sq? I know several of the 157 from a few years ago... every one of them is now an O-5 and many of them just got the call from SWA or United (some from both) in the past month. The pendulum is swinging very quickly back in favor of the pilots... too bad the shoes and the box checking Yes Men have their faces too buried in the Power Point slides for "Pride Month" to figure it out. Talking to my old boss who is now a 1 Star and has sat on a few promotion boards; sending up a blank PRF and an APZ PRF with just a P is the same thing... they essentially go into a separate pile and are not even considered. For the past 10+ yrs Big Blue just assumed that they had these folks (pilots) until 20 either way (and they were right)... that may not be a good assumption anymore.

[Champ Kind]

Great post, Hoss.

I'm on my cell so I'm not going to go crazy snipping quotes, but you backed a lot of your post up with actual data--somethjng that a lot of people who get emotional about this discussion fail to do.

The only thing we can't control are senior raters failing to make that quality cut of who their real stars are making things happen for the good of the organization and who simply looks good on paper.

[Bender]

The only thing we can't control are senior raters failing to make that quality cut of who their real stars are making things happen for the good of the organization and who simply looks good on paper.

This is not the first time I've heard this sentiment, and I still struggle to internalize it. How is it that the "real stars making things happen for the good of the organization" don't look "good on paper"?

There are many paths to success and there is no one right answer. Here is my humble viewpoint on this for the younger cats:

1) Find a few people they look up to that have made O-4 already and get their PRFs,

1a) You should look at these PRFs and go, "Holy Shit!", if you don't...find a different one.

1b) At some point along the way, you should find a few sharp O-5's (by most people's standards already a successful career) that are aiming at full bird and start doing this with theirs.

2) Starting with your very first OPR, start writing your own PRF,

2a) With each iteration, compare it to the completed PRFs you acquired from your mentors (identify the "white space" in yours that needs to be filled),

2b) With each OPR, replace weaker content with your stronger content (you are creating a super OPR that covers your career, get guidance on what PRFs look like...there are multiple versions that work).

3) Work very hard to ensure that every single OPR has something worthy of filling in that "white space"...a good OPR may have many things,

3a) By identifying the "white space" and looking at your examples, you should have an idea of what kinds of things you'll need to seek out to do

3b) Be your own person and steer towards what interests you, this will help keep your motivation and passion along the way (the military doesn't change that much though, innovation be damned).

4) Continue this until you have a PRF that's as good, if not better, than your mentor's to meet your board with.

4a) Many people think that doing a good job in what you're handed is enough. If you only do what is asked of you, you will be successful...but, you will NEVER fulfill your potential. This is why you don't want "endless potential" written on your shit. It says you could, but you don't.

5) If you are a "real star that is making things happen for the good of the organization", and you don't look good on paper...you may be a "real star", but you are also likely an idiot. At a minimum, people in the know have seriously let you down along the way. A lot of your peers found (likely sought out) people that did no such things.

You must do well at the things that are tasked to you, you must go beyond the minimum, and you must seek out opportunity. If you do not, do not complain about being in a situation where no one gives two shits if your PRF for the next board has a narrative or not. If you do everything you can, and it still doesn't work out...shut up and enjoy your paycheck flying the line and teaching the young guys (there are plenty of guys who won't get continuation or get tossed to the curb just shy of the finish line).

Bendy

Edited February 27, 2014 by Bender

[Rusty Pipes]

Maybe I'm a dick, but I don't understand this point of view. At some point....yes....dude....it's over. You're an O-4. From 2BPZ to 2APZ (5 years), a dude can spend a quarter of a typical 20-year career meeting his O-5 board with a chance of making it. After that, yes, realistically he's finished. Sorry, your record isn't competitive for O-5. Again, you have to realize the AF can only have so many Lt Cols. If everyone could be promoted, there'd be no reason to have a board in the first place.

And what you're not understanding when you say "they should be considered for promotion" is that they are considered for promotion...that's why their PRF continues to meet every board. It's just that every time they're considered for promotion, the overall recommendation from their SR is a "P", which under current guidelines doesn't require the narrative section to be filled out.

It's not being a dick and I understand everything you are saying, but it isn't entirely realistic based on how the structure is really set up. I'm just basing this on my various years of working for Bosses at the decision making level of who does or doesn't get DPs (OG/CC and higher) where I was involved in the process which has probably been for 5-6 different boards. As far as getting a DP BPZ goes, unless you are the AF Intern type or the Homestead scholar or (insert whatever fast burner program you want here) you are not part of the conversation at your typical Base. I'd say that of those who are technically eligible as BPZ, 95% are not even considered... and that's fine. For those in that 5% range the question isn't if, but when they will get promoted. For those 2 years APZ (again, only the experience I've had working the process) none of them were realistically considered. In fact two different O-6's I've worked for said they would push hard for a DP for a few APZs, but their boss told them straight up that nobody APZ would be considered in their DP allocation and they would not fight for an additional DP at an MLR for anyone APZ. Are they technically considered, yes... but reality is something different. That leaves you with your one shot IPZ... and if you say that your bottom 25% are those who checked their boxes later than the other guys then I will buy that theory, but I will tell you that the organization that I work for has the decision making O-6 using the date of AAD completion (the actual date, not whether you have one or not) as a top criteria for DP/P... and he strats accordingly.

This isn't sport bitching and I don't know the perfect solution, but I do see it as an upcoming problem for the pilot force. Maybe it’s a dedicated APZ DP based on percentages, maybe it’s a realistic 2-3 year window to compete (seems to work for the E's as well as the old way to select candidates for school). I don't think it is rank for incentive, but bonuses and daily threats against retirement/pension benefits aren't exactly enticing pilots to stay these days either. The only dog I have in this hunt is looking at our pilot force (both MAF/CAF) that is bleeding experience at an alarming rate and even with a "good guy" sitting as CSAF who seems to get it, we are still having O-6s through O-8s making queep a defining quality of what makes a good Officer.

Less than a year ago I sat in a briefing with the now recently retired AMC/CV who came right out and said, "I don't need pilots, I can train any kid off the street to be a pilot... I need Officers; and if you don't like that you can quit…you will be easily replaced." I hate to break it to you, but unless that MX or LRS Officer you have left over randomly knows how to fly an F-16 or a C-130... you need pilots... and you are REALLY going to need those gray beard pilots! You know, the ones that you have beaten the hell out of for the past 12 years that you said you didn't need and would easily replace. I just don't want to see future Class A's that they try to blame on training or basic pilot error while they ignore the experience level of guys they are losing due to queep. Of course we need well rounded Officers from every AFSC, but at some point we need to remember that we are the "Air" Force and stop sacrificing the mission (i.e. losing needed experienced pilots) for political correctness. We all know you have your top 10% and your bottom 10% that define themselves with the other 80% relatively close in comparison... I guess I'm just saying we need to take another look as to how we define that cut off in making that 75%.

[ThreeHoler]

Hoss, another good post. That said, we in AMC have been briefed multiple times by the O-6s that "some people (inferred the SRs and board members) are considering date of completion in addition to yes/no.

Our leadership are perpetuating these rumors. It is tough to distinguish truth from reality out here.

[Rusty Pipes]

Ehh, depends. As with every aspect of the promotion system, it all depends on the level of competition meeting that particular board. If the records on your base are weaker, an average or slightly above average record can float to the top of a smelly pile. Not every wing has AF Interns, Olmstead scholars, or even enough guys that are on the IDE/staff track, ….especially these days, and even more so in the near future.

(28.3% of people with a BPZ DP got promoted on the last board, so if you do get a DP there’s a chance, albeit about 1 in 4.)

Fair enough... especially concerning what will happen in the future with only actual selects going to school. I do apologize for pulling random numbers out of my ass, but you keep catching me at airports or out of the office with no .mil ability to get actual stats. Seriously, thanks for providing the correct numbers.

Maybe it is just my community or previous bases, but the last three assignments have had multiple Intern/Olmstead/Cross Flow types so the competition for BPZ DPs was between a very select group.

Of course. Makes sense though, doesn’t it? The 2APZer got passed over IPZ, and then again the next year. To get promoted 2APZ, something really significant has to change for a SR to decide to take a DP from competitive IPZ records and give it to a guy who’s already had the opportunity to meet the board 2 times and didn’t make it.

Like I said above, it all depends on the level of competition. I talked about a potentially smelly pile of records. IPZ DP allocation is 55%, …so man, unless this guy won the fucking MOH, we’ve gotta be talking about a really smelly turd pile of IPZers for him to suddenly have a better record than 45% of them after already being passed over twice.

Maybe I worded that incorrectly... I meant during either of those 2 years where you are APZ and they don't submit a blank PRF.

I understand the allocation system, but here is an example of how it sometimes doesn't work. I had just started working in the OG front office when we had an O-5 board. 4 in the Wing were eligible (relatively small group that year) so the Wing CC had 2 DPs to give and 2 of the 4 eligible were from the OG. Our guys in the OG we sharp guys... both EPs with good strats and all the right boxes checked; unfortunately for them the other 2 guys in the Wing were sitting Sq CCs in the MSG as O-4's so the Wing CC had to give the DPs to them (no arguments... everyone assumed all 4 would get picked up). Neither of the pilots got selected for O-5. This was one of the Wing CCs who said he would not consider anyone APZ for a DP and he was new (i.e. he would still be there for the next board); it was also the same board the 157 got booted... both of these guys turned in paperwork and are now O-5s in the Reserve, but both were also a hell of a lot sharper than some of the guys in the next year group who did get selected (I worked those PRFs too). Yes, timing is everything, but sometimes stats don't tell the right story.

Top criteria? Really? …and you have proof of this, of course?

This isn’t at all what I’ve seen. I’ve seen AAD treated purely as go/no-go. If you don’t have it, you’ve eliminated yourself. That’s it. But at ~14 years of service when you meet your IPZ board, there are so many other huge discriminators in the record that I find it extremely hard to believe that a SR would resort to the date of AAD completion to strat people. If that’s the case, that’s pathetic but it’s not the way the average SR is stratifying.

Besides, look at the statistics: 1,410 of 1,515 people meeting the board had AAD complete. That’s 93.1%. ....But only 75% got promoted. So absolute worst case imaginable, even if every SR was using AAD (completion date or otherwise) as his sole criteria for strats, the board still has to use some other performance discriminator other than AAD to cut the 18.1% of people that have an AAD but won’t make it.

Proof? You mean other than him requesting exact completion date of AAD/PME with every OPR/PRF and sitting in Officer rack/stack meetings with him where he justifies strats for all year group/ranks in the organization on the basis of these completion dates (i.e. "Capt Snuffy can't be #1, he doesn't even have a Masters")? Granted I am not at a Wing now, but this isn't the first time I've seen this. Maybe it is a CAF/MAF thing, but Wing CCs have been briefing this "not if you have your AAD/PME, but when you got it" in the MAF for years! And this doesn't only apply to DP/Ps on PRFs either. I've had several Sq CC's that would not strat any Capt without an AAD and/or SOS complete above anyone who did have it complete. As the Chief of Stan/Eval, I argued (and lost) over one of my guys who was a Capt EP being stratted below another Capt AC on his OPR because the AC had a Masters complete and the EP was 2 classes short. There was another Sq CC at this same base when I was an OG Exec who refused to give a Sq CC strat to any Capt without an AAD. When the OG asked him why a guy went from a #1 Sq CC strat on his last OPR (from the previous Sq CC) to no strat at all, the lack of an AAD was the answer he gave him. How does that look on a PRF or to a promotion board... "Top 5%, #1 in Yr Gp, #1 Pilot... no strat, no strat..."? Looks like the kid must have done SOMETHING pretty bad to fall out of favor, right?

Ohh dude….people say things like this all the time. It’s a little bit of theatrics to prove a point about the importance of officership. It’s not to be taken literally. They know they need pilots. They talk about it all the time, trust me. ...They just don’t meander down to the squadron to BS with line C/FGOs about it.

I'll agree that it is theatrics from some, but this was the direct response from the AMC Vice to a question about a potential upcoming pilot shortage and it is a response I've heard echoed from several senior leaders (O-6 to O-9). It was refreshing to hear two 4 Stars answer the same question by saying they think we are going to have a serious problem on our hands in the near future for 11Xs in general, but especially in the 11F and RPA community. I won't call out Liquid on this because I don't recall his exact position on the matter, but Chang definitely agreed with the "we don't need you and you'll be easily replaced" sentiment. I know the MAF and CAF are two different worlds, but I think maybe the MAF is a little lagging behind on recognizing priorities that the CAF management is starting to see.

[matmacwc]

Blah, Blah.....go guard.

[amcflyboy]

Blah, Blah.....go guard.

Even that is turning into a stretch...sadly.

[Skitzo]

I have seen 3 x passed over dudes thrown into 365s. As I understand them they are based on your short tour return date but I would like to point out if you take continuation irregardless of your strd you are now at the top of the list for a 365. Because you are passed over and not promoted.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vetter]

I heard a rumor somewhere that the 157 who were non-continued a few years back won a law suit against the Air Force. Is that true? If so, does anyone know what law firm they used? I was separated with no involuntary sep pay (offered continuation) after being passed over after applying for VSP back in 2011. I'm out for blood now...

Thanks!

[HeloDude]

I heard a rumor somewhere that the 157 who were non-continued a few years back won a law suit against the Air Force. Is that true? If so, does anyone know what law firm they used? I was separated with no involuntary sep pay (offered continuation) after being passed over after applying for VSP back in 2011. I'm out for blood now...

Thanks!

I'm confused...you were passed over and then offered continuation to only then later separate on your own and now you're upset that you didn't get any form of separation pay? The Air Force said they wanted to keep you, so if you don't want to stay in past your commitment, then you don't get anything. Maybe I'm missing something...that is unless your gripe is with how the 2011 VSP process was ran in which case I'll concur that it was totally messed up.

[ThreeHoler]

I heard a rumor somewhere that the 157 who were non-continued a few years back won a law suit against the Air Force. Is that true? If so, does anyone know what law firm they used? I was separated with no involuntary sep pay (offered continuation) after being passed over after applying for VSP back in 2011. I'm out for blood now...

Thanks!

Those rules were clearly articulated in the reg before you declined selective continuation, unlike the situation where the AF changed the selective continuation criteria with little to no warning.

[Vetter]

I know the rules. It's actually in Title 10 that if you are offered continuation and decline, you don't get Invol Sep pay. I'm more interested in what happened before the point I got passed over. I'd just like to talk to a lawyer, that's it. Anyone know?

[Butters]

I know the rules. It's actually in Title 10 that if you are offered continuation and decline, you don't get Invol Sep pay. I'm more interested in what happened before the point I got passed over. I'd just like to talk to a lawyer, that's it. Anyone know?

The 3 guys I know that were booted all got reserve jobs and are all Lt Cols now. They know nothing about a law suit.

[Azimuth]

The 3 guys I know that were booted all got reserve jobs and are all Lt Cols now. They know nothing about a law suit.

Same with a guy I work with. In fact he just got hired by United and pinned on Lt Col.