New Powered Flight Program Aircraft at USAFA

[i.o.w.a]

The Air Force has to screen pilot candidates somewhere down the line, it mind as well be at the zoo. Since 1/3rd of USAF pilots come from the zoo it isn't the most fiscally irresponsible thing the AF has done to screen them as cadets as opposed to 2LTs at pueblo after they have already PCS'd them to a UPT and TDY'd them back to Colorado. Every year Juniors make their AFSC dream sheet based on what their roommate has or academic instructor suggested instead of whether or not they blow chunks every time they do a break turn. Every IFS class has an Academy grad who graduates IFS but quits UPT because he realized it wasn't for him/her (applies to 2008-later classes). This program helps the undecided go ugly early.

Other rationale I've heard, commanders have to decide who to send to ENJPPT and who "deserves" P-cola. Right now there are Comm officer commanders making these decisions based on GPA and quality of shoe shine. Presented with a performance report from the SR-22 flight line those commanders might do a better job of keeping skill-less tool bags out T-38s and so on.

Bottom line, we can all agree Academy cadets need to be humbled, 10 hours in an SR-22 can do that.

Motto for Academy Flight Screening:

"You don't have hands of gold, you aren't Robin Olds, no they won't rename Sijan hall after you, yes you can have a career not as a pilot."

(Long post, but it was 6$ pitcher of Fat Tire night and I have to make up for all the fun I didn't have in college...)

[HuggyU2]

Can someone explain the need for these programs? What is the point of Academy guys getting jump wings, or 10 hours in XX aircraft?

Do you really need an answer to this question? You cannot figure it out?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Huggyu2

[SurelySerious]

Here's your AF answer

Gliders: The program is the largest glider operation in the world. Its mission is to form the foundation of cadet exposure to military aviation, build character, and help motivate cadets toward a career in the United States Air Force.

Powered Flight:To screen for aptitude, attitude, and adaptability while developing pilot candidates towards a military flying career.

Jump: What started as a club training 25 students a year has grown into a premier character development program training 600 to 1,200 cadets annually and field nationally recognized competition and demonstration teams.

Character development, screening, and intro to military flight programs; nothing too surprising.

[Dukeorions]

Can someone explain the need for these programs? What is the point of Academy guys getting jump wings, or 10 hours in XX aircraft?

Edit: stoleit asked it first, but still waiting for an answer.

Keep in mind all aviation programs offered to academy guys are also offered to ROTC cadets as a portion of their summer training, including SPACE.

[osulax05]

whether or not they blow chunks every time they do a break turn.

Break turns eh?

What is the threat? What is the standard gameplan? 1 or 2 circle?

[Bronco130]

Waste of money. Complete glass cockpit? Unless they are getting 10 VRF hours followed by a CAT II ILS certification...completely unnecessary.

[sputnik]

The Air Force has to screen pilot candidates somewhere down the line, it mind as well be at the zoo. Since 1/3rd of USAF pilots come from the zoo it isn't the most fiscally irresponsible thing the AF has done to screen them as cadets as opposed to 2LTs at pueblo after they have already PCS'd them to a UPT and TDY'd them back to Colorado. Every year Juniors make their AFSC dream sheet based on what their roommate has or academic instructor suggested instead of whether or not they blow chunks every time they do a break turn. Every IFS class has an Academy grad who graduates IFS but quits UPT because he realized it wasn't for him/her (applies to 2008-later classes). This program helps the undecided go ugly early.

Kinda sorta, they still do have to go to IFS after they graduate. And this actually counts for nothing in terms of their ranking (as cadets and/or in terms of awarded AFSC). In fact, they take it as seniors, up till this year they got their AFSC as juniors. I have had a number of cadets tell me this summer they aren't sure what they want to do, and took this to help them figure out if flying was it. So for them, it's a good thing they don't have AFSCs yet.

Don't forgot, you can not take this program, or do absolutely terrible in it, and still go onto IFS and UPT. It is intended as a motivational/educational program open to all cadets. You have to be PQ to solo, but not to take the course.

They get a pass/fail down here. And I don't know if anyone actually fails, you'd have to try hard, very hard. There is no report that goes anywhere. Those deciding who gets to be a star bellied sneetch ENJPPT student have no idea how they did or didn't do in PFP, there are no reports generated. All they know is who took it and who finished it.

I'll point out, gliders and jump are both excellent programs (IMO) not so much for the students, but the instructors. Both are run and instructed entirely by cadets. Yeah they are supervised by officers/NCOs, but they really do the majority of instruction, that's a pretty cool responsibility for a 21 year old cadet.

I think I answered it a while back, but why do we have PFP? After we moved IFS out of here, the CSAF came to the realization that the AF Academy didn't have any powered airplanes on it (tow planes don't count). They even got rid of the motor gliders. He apparently thought it was a bad thing that cadets would spend four years here and never have a chance to operate a powered airplane. Your opinion may vary, his won. What will happen to the program....who the hell knows. The going guess is that it'll turn back into IFS again. As far as flying squadrons go, costs are a drop in the bucket (I flew 3.2 hours today, burned about 30 gallons of gas).

Some may say it's a lot of money for a fam program when we're going to send them to IFS in a year anyway. I dunno. Bottom line, it exists and I'm having fun.

Waste of money. Complete glass cockpit? Unless they are getting 10 VRF hours followed by a CAT II ILS certification...completely unnecessary.

The glass cockpit probably isn't necessary, but can you buy a Cirrus without one? What's VRF?

[tac airlifter]

Some may say it's a lot of money for a fam program when we're going to send them to IFS in a year anyway. I dunno. Bottom line, it exists and I'm having fun.

Good on you bro, that's the best answer for anything we do.

[B*D*A]

Do you really need an answer to this question? You cannot figure it out?

Huggy, my question should have been, "How beneficial is this program at getting cadets into and through IFS/UPT."

It just seems unnecessary to me since we all go to IFS, just looking for some opinions from the Academy bubbas. No doubt it's fun and a motivating activity, but I didn't go through it and it wasn't an option when I was in ROTC so I have no idea how beneficial the program is.

I guess since it's the Air Force Academy, might as well have some shit going on in the air.

[HU&W]

What's VRF?

I'm thinking "Vectored Radar Flight." You know, where the controller does most of the work for you.

[flynhigh]

Here's your AF answer

Powered Flight:To screen for aptitude, attitude, and adaptability while developing pilot candidates towards a military flying career.

Character development, screening, and intro to military flight programs; nothing too surprising.

More from the acquisition solicitation;

The principal mission of the aircraft is to provide the USAFA cadets with capstone airmanship experience to expose them to aviation principles. This document identifies that the aircraft is Commercial-Off-The-Shelf (COTS), FAA Type Certified to fulfill the needs of the USAF.

With regards to glass cockpit;

Waste of money. Complete glass cockpit? Unless they are getting 10 VRF hours followed by a CAT II ILS certification...completely unnecessary.

Most GA aircraft come standard with glass cockpits these days. As mentioned above, the request was for a Type Certified aircraft. Sure, an SR20 could be stripped down and certified with steam gauges, but the certification costs to do so would far outweigh the cost savings associated with removing the avionics (at least on the scale of 25 aircraft). Glass panels may be unnecessary for the current PFP mission at USAFA, but the economics don't make sense.

Regarding;

The glass cockpit probably isn't necessary, but can you buy a Cirrus without one?

See above. Not an option. Fairly certain you can't buy a Cessna or Diamond without a glass panel either (I could easily be wrong).

Edited July 7, 2011 by flynhigh

[flynhigh]

Oops. Glad they're okay.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/10/ap-two-ok-after-academy-crash-100212/

[Cap-10]

I bet it still had the new airplane smell...glad they are OK!

Cheers,

Cap-10

[drewpey]

a training plane crashed into an Air Force Academy hangar while landing.

taxiing is for pussies!

[raimius]

Looking at the airfield layout, I have to ask...how did that one happen?

[sputnik]

Hey, at least they landed at the right airport.

Been flying it for 9 months, never knew it was called the Kadet 2. I learned something from AF Times

[HuggyU2]

Been flying it for 9 months, never knew it was called the Kadet 2. I learned something from AF Times

The original Kaydet: https://www.opencockpit.net/kaydet.html

[Archa3opt3ryx]

Talking to some Academy dudes in my IFS and UPT classes who have flown both the DA-40 and the SR-20 while they were at the zoo, the universal consensus is that the 40 is a much better airplane for the DA they get there. The Cirrus just doesn't have the power they need in the summer at that altitude.

[sputnik]

Considering there were exactly zero cadets who flew both airplanes I wonder how they came to that conclusion.

There are pluses and minuses to each.

Personally, the Cirrus is far more comfortable and stable, but I thought the 40 was slightly easier to fly. Cirrus flight controls are goofy and that makes it a little harder to learn to flare, but we're soloing cadets so they're figuring it out.

Both planes suck at high DA, I can't tell a difference between the two performance-wise and doubt anyone else could unless they were running a test card.

[Guest]

Talking to some Academy dudes in my IFS and UPT classes who have flown both the DA-40 and the SR-20 while they were at the zoo, the universal consensus is...

Considering there were exactly zero cadets who flew both airplanes I wonder how they came to that conclusion.

Copy kill.

did you mean "talking to some academy dudes, expert pilots with over 20 hours flying time, the universal consensus is..." ?

LOL...dead man, missiles back.

[ZoomieRugby]

When I left the Academy I remember seeing a flyer offering a DA-40 for just under $200,000 in the Aero Club building. Not sure if they ever sold one.

Edited July 15, 2013 by ZoomieRugby

[Guest]

Did you ever see a DA-40 for sale?

[Archa3opt3ryx]

Considering there were exactly zero cadets who flew both airplanes I wonder how they came to that conclusion.

I believe they were freshman when they flew the DA40 and seniors when they flew the SR20. No idea about number of hours, but at least one guy was an IP in the SR20, so I'm hoping more than 20. I guess they have seniors instructing freshman? I'm a ROTC guy so I have zero personal experience with what's going on over there, but considering I heard the same story from multiple people on multiple occasions, either they're all collectively bullshitting, I keep misunderstanding something, or there's a grain of truth somewhere in there.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Archa3opt3ryx

[Breckey]

Powered flight has a grand total of 0 cadet instructors. Soaring and Jump have cadet instructors.

[HuggyU2]

I've flown the SR-20, 22, and 22 Turbo.

I've not flown them at high DA.

Great airplanes.

Nothing 'goofy' about the Cirrus flight controls.