magnetfreezer Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Seriously? Is this by the AF in general? I wouldn't be surprised. In every OG I've been in, WIC DG was held in much higher regard...of course, leaders in the OG generally understand what it means to earn that distinction as opposed to the shoes outside the OG. DP's are assigned at the wing. Guess who looks better on paper, the Capt wing WO/WIC DG or the personnel Capt with SOS DG and 6900 hours feeding the homeless.
sky_king Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Can you gin up a couple dozen ppt slides on this? Please? Clever...
17D_guy Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 WAY too true. How many outside the Ops group can honestly say they know what WIC even is... I didn't know what WIC was until I worked with a... [drumroll] Space guy (exec) who went. Then my wife started talking about going. They announced the call for initial cadre for cyber. I'm too old, and have too much TIS to go. Then I read the book someone on here mentioned about Boyd and learned a whole lot more. I can't believe it doesn't rate higher than SOS DG. Not surprised, just demoralizing.
BB Stacker Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Flip side argument regarding WIC...do you honestly expect non-flyers to understand what something like WIC is? I mean, I'm not saying I agree with giving SOS DG more weight than that (not at all), but making this out to be some conspiracy on the part of the evil shoes to keep flyers down isn't really seeing the whole picture. Here's a test: how many of you guys know (without googling) what AMMOS is? How about ALROC? (No, I'm not saying those are in any way comparable to WIC, I'm just trying to make a point.)
Guest Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Flip side argument regarding WIC...do you honestly expect non-flyers to understand what something like WIC is? If they were reviewing records on a promotion board? Absolutely. In fact, I would consider them derelict if they didn't.
BQZip01 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Flip side argument regarding WIC...do you honestly expect non-flyers to understand what something like WIC is? Yes, I expect them to have a modicum of understanding. I certainly don't expect them to know exactly, but they should know the basics of what it is/entails/provides for the AF. I'm not going to claim that I understand everything a Maintenance Officer goes through, but if I'm supposed to rank them, I'm sure as hell going to learn about the high points of their career path along with the stuff I already know. #1 at WIC should be racked SIGNIFICANTLY higher than DG from SOS. Edited July 12, 2012 by BQZip01
Chuck17 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Flip side argument regarding WIC...do you honestly expect non-flyers to understand what something like WIC is? I mean, I'm not saying I agree with giving SOS DG more weight than that (not at all), but making this out to be some conspiracy on the part of the evil shoes to keep flyers down isn't really seeing the whole picture. Having some experience with these, I can tell you that at the MLR, the Promotion Board, and at the DT, the wing commanders, etc in attendance that are reviewing records are told EXACTLY what to look for. And they are given specific guidance on what different AFSC identifiers mean (W, K, T, S, etc), on what the standout discriminators are (WIC Graduate, AF-level "Of the Year" awards, DG's, strats, etc.). Not only that, these dudes (in our case) are Line AF colonels. They can read a record, all-be-it with some coaching... The promotion boards are VERY fair. The DT boards where wing commanders fight for their dudes to get a good school or get schools at all, THOSE can come under heavy influence... Huge difference. From what I have seen, you need to show SEVERAL things, not just one, to make the biggest splash. To go far (no particular order): - PME (In-Res preferred) - Masters / AAD's (note, I did NOT say BAC+, guys love telling each other a BAC+ is enough - it is not anymore) - DG from something, the more the better - WIC / TPS is good, gives you a one-up in a lot of areas over your peers - Instructor / Evaluator helps. - Awards (not nominations), the higher the level the better. Nominations are good, not great. Annual awards are a big deal. - Have your house in order - SURF, duty history showing progression, Medals, etc should be correct, present - Push lines on OPRs help - Good Strats - from as large a population as possible - group-level or higher When it comes time to go to things like School Selection at a DT Board, it is a little different. Hard work and a great record will get you school, but having someone fight for you is all the better. Doesn't always happen, but at the Major level is where things REALLY start to get political. Love it or hate it, having someone pull for you (made easier by being a hard worker and a good dude) is a good thing. That's the way it is... Chuck Edited July 12, 2012 by Chuck17 1
Gravedigger Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) When I was an exec I was told by a Lt Gen that SOS DG was particularly important because the demographics of your SOS class mimic the demographics of the Air Force fairly closely. If you can stand out amongst your peers there and be the "inspiring leader" of your flight, you can probably do the same thing in your Sq, OG, WG, NAF etc. He was not naive to the fact that many great officers don't give a shit about SOS and therefore self-eliminate from DG contention. As for non-flyers knowing about WIC. Keep in mind that not all patches are aircrew, and the majority of O-6s in the Air Force come from the Ops community, to include Space, Cyber, ICBM and Intel, all of which have WICs. The only thing I would add to Chuck's list is the sample size matters, but strats really need to be from your peer group to mean anything. For example, I have seen numerous OPRs for Captains that say #X of XX CGOs. It's better than nothing, but how many of those CGOs were 2d Lts? I saw a Lt Col OPR with the strat "My #3 of 70 officers". Seriously? In some cases, it comes down to the rater just not understanding how to strat. I looked at an OPR for a Capt that said #2 of 37 CGOs. I asked the rater how many of the CGOs were Captains, and it was 28. #2 of 28 Captains is MUCH stronger than #2 of 37 CGOs. Edited July 12, 2012 by Gravedigger
Jaded Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 #2 of 28 Captains is MUCH stronger than #2 of 37 CGOs. What a stupid ######ing system. 5
Vetter Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) This thread is the reason I am taking my services elsewhere. And WIC grads have the highest promotion rate of any demographic...SOS DG or not. Edited July 12, 2012 by Vetter
Chida Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This is the most f*ked up bs I've ever read. Keep jerkin each other off, fools. I'm so glad I'm done with active duty. 1
hindsight2020 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This is the most f*ked up bs I've ever read. Keep jerkin each other off, fools. I'm so glad I'm done with active duty. A fuckin' men...
HuggyU2 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I'm so glad I'm done with active duty. What are you doing now? Is it a better lifestyle?
zrooster99 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This is the most f*ked up bs I've ever read. Keep jerkin each other off, fools. I'm so glad I'm done with active duty. Noted. Now go fuck yourself. Over.
nsplayr Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 ...but how many of those CGOs were 2d Lts? Was this officer rated? In that case probably none. The fact that you need a combination of voodoo and the Rosetta Stone to tell if a person's OPR is actually good or just sounds good tells you something is rotten in the way we do performance reports and feedback... 2
17D_guy Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 The fact that you need a combination of voodoo and the Rosetta Stone to tell if a person's OPR is actually good.... I got my hands on a couple of other OPR's from my Sq when I had to provide my first set of "OPR bullets". Reading them I was just baffeled that 2 of the biggest DB's in the Sq rated such high praise. One of the dudes put the CC in a druken headlock during the Christmas Holiday party. The other renowned among my Amn for picking up the new enlisted chicks that showed up, and he was married. Mentioned my thoughts/concerns carefully to my CC and he sat me down with his OPR (strat heaven), and we compared and he told me the way to "read". I thought then, and do now: what total horse shit. Anyone seen older reports? Are the ones from the 60/70/80's any better? I will automatically exclude 90's because of Skeletor, and TQM.
Day Man Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 It's amazing how strongly some people feel over the idea of getting unplugged from the Matrix. I'm guessing it was the "keep jerking each other off, fools" comment that prompted zrooster to suggest to chida to fornicate himself.
zach braff Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) Anyone seen older reports? Are the ones from the 60/70/80's any better? I will automatically exclude 90's because of Skeletor, and TQM. I wrote the script for a 3-Star's retirement ceremony once and got his OPRs going all the way back to the 70s. It was pretty cool to see the progression of a GO going all the way back to his UPT training report. I expected to see stacks and stacks of #1s but it became obvious pretty quickly that at different points in time other things were important. There were strats but not all were like the ones we're told are important today. The officer was clearly always the superstar but you had to read the whole OPR to tell that. You could almost see the point where the real strat game started though. It appeared to me to be around the downsizing era of the 90s (from these records anyway). I wonder if that's it - we got too small and too busy for leadership to write and read the meat of an OPR so we turned to the topline/bottom line system that tells you in a 10 second glance whether someone's a dirtbag or superstar... zb Edited July 13, 2012 by zach braff 1
Chida Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 All right, all right. I apologize. I shouldn't have said something so inflammatory. In the future, I won't be insulting to such an ill-defined target.
Duck Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I figured by the circle jerk comment you were talking about AF leadership.
busdriver Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 One of the dudes put the CC in a druken headlock during the Christmas Holiday party. Sounds like a party, what's the problem? 1
genie90 Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I got my hands on a couple of other OPR's from my Sq when I had to provide my first set of "OPR bullets". Reading them I wasn't baffelled that 2 of the biggest DB's in the Sq rated such high praise. One of the dudes put the CC in a druken headlock during the Christmas Holiday party, which he planned. FIFY
Danger41 Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 Check out this article about Officer retention in the Army. Apparently it's not just us dealing with the clown act. https://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/why-our-best-officers-are-leaving/8346/1/
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