AFI 36-2903 and dress/uniform regs and issues

[Goblin]

A guy in our squadron is ordering morale patches that say "No Morale" on them since no morale patches are authorized.

What would it take to get in on that...I'd take a couple

[nsplayr]

I stand corrected on the MAJCOM sups issue, but this is one of those things that I think MAJCOMs may not have the authority to alter. Just because a local law states you don't have freedom of speech, it doesn't mean that it's legal.

In any case, it still seems like a dick move

Your example of local law trumping federal law is not the same at all. Local regs can be more restrictive and while sometimes they seem to violate the spirit of the AFI, that's the way it works. I'm not sure why you think MAJCOMs may not have the authority to order their members to all wear the same patch. You have no "right" to wear the flag patch whatsoever just like you have no right to wear black boots, a flight suit (unless flying) or anything else that the AF deems not proper to wear.

Do I like wearing the flag patch, sure; that doesn't change the fact that my CC can tell me to take it off tomorrow and wear something else.

A guy in our squadron is ordering morale patches that say "No Morale" on them since no morale patches are authorized.

That is f*cking brilliant! PM me if there's a way I can order a couple as well.

[Guest GFYHUA?]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/05/airforce_patches_053010w/

“Allowing flying units to keep their patches while eliminating them from all other units only further perpetuates the stigma that in our Air Force, there are fliers, and then there’s everybody else,” wrote 1st Lt. Benjamin Moritz, a maintenance officer with the 55th Wing at Offutt Air Force Base, Neb. “Why should fliers be the only ones allowed to show pride in their units and their jobs?”

“It really bugs ... me that pilots and aircrew can wear a morale patch that reads ‘YGBSM’ on their arm, but I’m not allowed to have an American flag on my shoulder,” wrote O’Connor, a communications craftsman with the Nebraska Air National Guard’s 155th Aerial Refueling Wing.

Prior to the new AFI, but clearly shows where this change came from. Sounds like the younger child complaining that they didn't get a new toy on his brother's birthday and whining until they get one...then when they can't get the youngest to STFU, the parents take it away from the older brother to appease the youngest and stop the argument. Fine! If we can't have patches, neither can the pilots!

[GKinnear]

Quote

“Allowing flying units to keep their patches while eliminating them from all other units only further perpetuates the stigma that in our Air Force, there are fliers, and then there’s everybody else,” wrote 1st Lt. Benjamin Moritz, a maintenance officer with the 55th Wing at Offutt Air Force Base, Neb. “Why should fliers be the only ones allowed to show pride in their units and their jobs?”

Quoted for posterity. I know Ben, this will make excellent FTU/Naming fodder.

Perfect example of "RAINMAN's Guide to Life Rule #1: Never talk to the media."

[TAMInated]

For all those wanting patches:

The guy from our squadron is going to put a drone on them, which I refuse to wear, so I'll be putting in a different order. They'll be subdued standard black writing on green. We have more than enough orders to get bulk pricing. Companies in the states want about tree fitty per patch, but I'll see how much my bros on the ROK can get them for at the BX-nida. Order is closed Wednesday night, I'll PM all that ordered with payment info.

[BQZip01]

If you put something on your left shoulder, other than a 'Merican Flag, you are wrong. There is no argument here.

How about both? I know quite a few who proudly sport their wing patch plus an American Flag tab patch.

On a related note, my dad finished his career at the Wing level and the numbered Air Force didn't have many clear regs, so he wore an American flag on the left shoulder. Since there were no specifications as to the size allowed, he went with 4" x 6". It was "stick-it-to-the-man"-ostentatious and he got nothing but compliments from both superiors and subordinates...until he visited Randolph prior to retirement. There was a SSgt at AFPC that mentioned his patch was out of regulations. My father (a full bird Colonel) asked the little pipsqueak what regulation that might be. He quoted the latest version of our not-so-humble AFI 36-29OhSuckIt verbatim from memory (what a shoeclerk!) regarding wing patches; it turns out he wrote the damn section for the latest uniform board in response to some wings' patches being bigger than others (it wasn't "fair"). My father calmly pointed out that the regulation regulates wing patch sizes, not the size of the American flag (which at 3 inches by 3 inches would be woefully out of compliance with US law...).

My father retired shortly thereafter, but the next uniform board capped American flag sizes at 2x3 inches. Coincidence?

[Hacker]

If you put something on your left shoulder, other than a 'Merican Flag, you are wrong. There is no argument here.

Uh, no, actually there is quite an argument. Again, there are thousands of USAF pilots who don't, and haven't for decades.

[StoleIt]

When I was in the Army, you only wore the flag when your unit deployed overseas. I got out though in 2000, and to be honest I'm not sure about current guidance.

Definitely not that way with ACU's. They sport a reverse red/white/blue flag when CONUS and then slap on an IR flag for in the AOR (which aren't authorized for us according to AFI's).

[nsplayr]

On a related note, my dad finished his career at the Wing level and the numbered Air Force didn't have many clear regs, so he wore an American flag on the left shoulder. Since there were no specifications as to the size allowed, he went with 4" x 6".

Wait, what? You're saying your father wore a 4 inch by 6 inch flag patch on his uniform? Like it was hanging off the velco area? 4x6, like a common photograph?

I challenge anyone out there to hold up a photograph to their shoulder in uniform to understand how ludicrous that would look.

Great story...

[Guest]

You guys crack me up with all this American flag bullshit.

This is nothing. You would've loved listening to all the tear filled uber passionate American flag patch bullshit flowing every patch night at Nellis when the C-130 guys became part of the school and they tried to justify wearing their weapons school patches on their right arms.

[sky_king]

Upon hearing the news, shoe clerks around the AF rejoice!

[TAMInated]

Maybe just "Morale" with a slash through it would be better?

[brwwg&b]

MORALE with slash through is what I originally thought of here at our SQ level...I think that's the way to go

[Swizzle]

Whilst reading the new AFI 36-29-oh.shenanigans. I discovered perhaps this little gem....

8.5.1.1. Configure Velcro on the Flight Jacket like the FDU/DFDU

Which means the pen/pencil pocket should have velcro and doesn't. Stick with me here...and the no morale are authorized in the subsection covering the flight suit pen/pencil pocket(8.3 FDU/DFDU) but flight jackets are in section 8.4...

...and since it says, "If the pen and pencil pocket cover is removed, a morale patch is not authorized on the remaining Velcro." Which the pocket cover wasn't removed but velcro must be added to match the FDU.

I submit to you Morale patches authorized on flight jackets (and ignoring the original intention of no moral patches).

[BQZip01]

Wait, what? You're saying your father wore a 4 inch by 6 inch flag patch on his uniform? Like it was hanging off the velco area? 4x6, like a common photograph?

I challenge anyone out there to hold up a photograph to their shoulder in uniform to understand how ludicrous that would look.

Great story...

Yup! But to be fair, he got the velcro sewn on his flightsuit large enough to match and he had big shoulders/arms, so it didn't looked ok, just obnoxiously patriotic.

Whilst reading the new AFI 36-29-oh.shenanigans. I discovered perhaps this little gem....

8.5.1.1. Configure Velcro on the Flight Jacket like the FDU/DFDU

Which means the pen/pencil pocket should have velcro and doesn't. Stick with me here...and the no morale are authorized in the subsection covering the flight suit pen/pencil pocket(8.3 FDU/DFDU) but flight jackets are in section 8.4...

...and since it says, "If the pen and pencil pocket cover is removed, a morale patch is not authorized on the remaining Velcro." Which the pocket cover wasn't removed but velcro must be added to match the FDU.

I submit to you Morale patches authorized on flight jackets (and ignoring the original intention of no moral patches).

A+ for reading the fine print! I would expect similar restrictions to follow on the next uniform board just because some shoeclerks are butthurt that they don't wear a bag (we've had 98 in 64 years, sooooo...the next one should happen in September?)

Edited August 3, 2011 by BQZip01

[Champ Kind]

Come on guys.... Are you really implying that pointy-nose types don't give a shit about the American flag because they do not wear it on their uniform?

Face it - MAF and CAF are not the same. Yes, we all fly for God & country and all that... but does it really matter? MAF dudes wear the flag. Cool. CAF dude's don't. So what? There are a lot more things that we do differently, too. I'll go out on a limb and say I'm sure that we could all become better by exchanging some more plays out of our respective books. But a patch? Come on....

Quit feeding the trolls on this one, boys. You make us all look silly. And, in the end, shouldn't this thread be about bashing shoe clerks and their mindless changes to uniform regulations while we are out there hacking the mish?

[Guest]

You guys are too much. Let me modify the statement a bit...American flag PATCH bullshit cracks me up.

FWIW, I have installed 30' flagpoles with 6x10 flags, illuminated and flown 24/7 at every house I've owned. I flew with an American flag in my pocket on every sortie I ever flew. I also had a flag in the canopy on every sortie. That may seem like a bit over the top with the flag action but I love the American flag.

I didn't need to wear it on my uniform, since the uniform itself seemed to speak to my patriotism and willingness to serve. I felt there were ample opportunities to show my pride in the flag and I didn't need to make a big deal of having a flag on my sleeve. I certainly did not feel the need to fall on my sword over it. I guess you could accuse me of being like the POTUS if you want.

Calm down.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Rainman A-10

[BQZip01]

To quote the new AFI:

6.5.1.2. Females. Appropriate undergarments are required to be worn with all uniform combinations. Wear bra and underpants with all uniforms...

Really..."underpants"?

[GovernmentMan]

Collateral damage from the repeal of DADT. Real men on the board would have made sure these items remained "optional"

Edit to add: "optional, with weight/aft CG restrictions"

That's procedure.

Loadmaster's Report - "IN THE BUNK WITH A FAT CHICK" (LM)

After Takeoff Checklist - "COMPLETED" (PM)

[DFRESH]

Mandatory attendance at a chief's panel tonight ( three chiefs mentoring ~150 studs), and somebody asked about Friday shirts, follow up question was about heritage and the ways the air force is killing it. Answers included "The color t-shirt you wear should have nothing to do with morale" and "I don't see how the color of the t-shirt you wear has anything to do with heritage" as well as "well all the younger airmen look up to you, and they see you wearing stuff and they want to do it too".

[Boxhead]

Mandatory attendance at a chief's panel tonight ( three chiefs mentoring ~150 studs), and somebody asked about Friday shirts, follow up question was about heritage and the ways the air force is killing it. Answers included "The color t-shirt you wear should have nothing to do with morale" and "I don't see how the color of the t-shirt you wear has anything to do with heritage" as well as "well all the younger airmen look up to you, and they see you wearing stuff and they want to do it too".

Follow up question/statement should have been "Well then Chief, you are obviously so far gone and separated from reality, that I think you need to be mentored by us, not the other way around". Then a nice little walk out should have ensued. (well, depends on the audience vs Panel rank wise I suppose)

[discus]

Follow up question/statement should have been "Well then Chief, you are obviously so far gone and separated from reality, that I think you need to be mentored by us, not the other way around". Then a nice little walk out should have ensued. (well, depends on the audience vs Panel rank wise I suppose)

Correct answer should have been: "Well, Chief, if they want to do it too, they can bust their ass through four years of college, working full time, and sweating out multiple board results so that they can get an aircrew slot, and then they can do it too." (Much more effective if you have a prior E saying it)

[BADFNZ]

Another correct answer: "Well Chief, once they file my fucking travel voucher that's been sitting in the queue for 6-9 weeks, I won't give a shit what they wear."

[Dukeorions]

Mandatory attendance at a chief's panel tonight ( three chiefs mentoring ~150 studs), and somebody asked about Friday shirts, follow up question was about heritage and the ways the air force is killing it. Answers included "The color t-shirt you wear should have nothing to do with morale" and "I don't see how the color of the t-shirt you wear has anything to do with heritage" as well as "well all the younger airmen look up to you, and they see you wearing stuff and they want to do it too".

I was sitting in the front row and almost puked all over their sage green boots when they fumbled with the amswer to this question. Although the question could have been asked a little more eloquently, their sorry ass excuse for the reasoning behind it really had me gagging. I wanted to say that I've never seen an A1C trying to sew a fun-meter on their ABU sleeve...shit I wanted to say a lot of things but I figured I'd keep my mouth shut.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Luke

[TAMInated]

The patches are going to be a buck a piece plus postage. I'm trying to find out if the vendor will ship directly to you guys to make things a bit easier for me. Standby for more words.