DoD "ready" for DADT repeal

[pawnman]

Disheartening...preach tolerance and acceptance, except for those that disagree. The American dream lives on.

The bigger point is that it falls into the same bucket as criticizing any civilian leadership decision. You can raise issues, you can argue your point, but at some point, the decision has been made and you are expected to salute and follow orders. Especially for a first sergeant who is responsible for getting the rest of the squadron on-board. Just as we all bitch about losing morale patches, or ROE changes, or the giant witch-hunt for sexual predators...but at the end of the day, you are expected to take off the morale patches, follow the ROE, and clean the Maxims out of your desk.

You can hold whatever personal opinions you want, but when you represent the Air Force, especially in a leadership capacity, you must also represent the Air Force's official policy on these things.

Edited August 15, 2013 by pawnman

[Fuzz]

Right but now we are in the thought police area, its no longer a matter of what you do but now what you think. Taking one side of the argument or the other is not discrimination, acting on it against Air Force policy is discrimination.

[Fuzz]

There is nothing stating that he didn't uphold air force policy, he was fired for not saying he though homosexuality/marriage/ect. was OK, when asked by the SQ/CC. Again its the thought police, he did his job and from the article was objective when it came to dealing with the young MTI, however the SQ/CC is all about diversity only when she agrees with it, that my friend is not diversity, it is hypocritical discrimination.

[HeloDude]

Had this happened to pretty much anyone else in the unit, I would agree, but the First Shirt being a policy cheerleader for the commander is pretty much one of the primary job requirements of being a shirt. Other people in the unit can bitch about whatever, but you're not going to fire them from their job because they don't like the policy. A shirt may not like the idea of women in combat roles, but he would still have the toe the line on that policy. Same thing about hands in pockets, the PT test, or whatever else.

Having said that, freedom of expression is limited in the military, but it's especially limited for a shirt. It's the nature of that particular job.

You missed the point. You're not allowed to have your hands in your pocket, and you're not allowed to discriminate against gender (ie tell a woman they can't/shouldn't serve in certain career fields if they're legally allowed to do so) because it goes against the AFI. But saying you don't believe/agree with gay marriage has nothing to do with the military as you don't have to be married/not married to do a job in the military...marriage is a lifestyle choice, pure and simple. If I loved to watch porn and gamble in Nevada but a First Shirt said he didn't agree with people watching pornography or gambling, then it's just his opinion, same as this situation as I read it (within the last 2 months I have personally heard an O-6 tell his folks that it's not good to watch pornography). Smoking is also a lifestyle choice--we are free to smoke, but there are several programs to help you stop doing it. It doesn't mean that you are allowed to discriminate against smokers, but you can have your opinion in that you don't think it's a healthy lifestyle choice (as the Air Force tells us).

This is all PC bullshit, plain and simple. I'm still waiting though for dudes to be able to wear earrings and nail polish while in uniform--I mean if chicks can do it, why can't we?

In other news...unless AF Crimes got it wrong, this article makes it sound that the '10 days of leave for gays to get married' is indeed going to happen.

To compensate for the fact that same-sex couples cannot legally marry in 37 states, DoD will grant special leave to gay troops who want to get married but are stationed more than 100 miles from a state that legally recognizes same-sex marriages.

That leave will be for seven days for troops stationed in the continental U.S., and 10 days for those stationed outside the continental U.S., according to a memo signed by Jessica Wright, acting undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness.

[Learjetter]

Joe, you're wrong. Go re-read the article. The shirt was FIRED for NOT saying he AGREED with the CC that "anyone who doesn't support gay marriage is guilty of discrimination".

Think about that.

[Hercster]

The bigger point is that it falls into the same bucket as criticizing any civilian leadership decision. You can raise issues, you can argue your point, but at some point, the decision has been made and you are expected to salute and follow orders. Especially for a first sergeant who is responsible for getting the rest of the squadron on-board. Just as we all bitch about losing morale patches, or ROE changes, or the giant witch-hunt for sexual predators...but at the end of the day, you are expected to take off the morale patches, follow the ROE, and clean the Maxims out of your desk.

You can hold whatever personal opinions you want, but when you represent the Air Force, especially in a leadership capacity, you must also represent the Air Force's official policy on these things.

I think it was pretty well said after your post, but to reiterate, he didn't come out and say he was against the policy or her endorsement. He was enforcing the lawful regs as far as I can tell, but he (and I) are entitled to our opinions. I don't have to agree with the new DOD policy of same-sex marriage benefits but it is the law and if I'm in a position to affect it, I will make sure that the law is followed.

But that's not enough, I have to conform not just outwardly, but inwardly. My thoughts can no longer be my own, only what have been approved and endorsed by the reigning authority or popular public opion. That crosses the line. And it's downright scary.

[pawnman]

This is one of the reasons why someone like the shirt needs to be on-board with the policy. When Amn Joe comes to the shirt because finance isn't paying out dependent BAH/FSA/slow-rolling DEERs enrollment (I know that one isn't finance) for his new husband Bob, the shirt should be supportive in Amn Joe's attempts to un-fuck his pay and benefits. Do you really think a shirt who so strongly believes gay marriage is wrong will put in the same effort for Joe and Bob that he would put in for Joe and Barbara?

[Fuzz]

It's nobody's business what his personal thoughts on the subject are, as long as he does his job. You really want to go down the thought police road? Cool come talk to me when you loose you job not because of what you do but because of what you think.

The problem is this commander believes that you must absolutely support gay marriage or you are wrong, there is no other side, and frankly why the hell is this commander even bringing this up? The commander had no right to ask him his personal beliefs (nor take any action due to them), now if she wanted to ask if he would execute his duties in accordance with AF policy, that is fair game.

I may not agree with Tom having a husband, but I need Tom focused on properly loading my jet or sitting in the other pilot seat, so yes I will help him get his stuff squared away.

[Grabby]

This is one of the reasons why someone like the shirt needs to be on-board with the policy. When Amn Joe comes to the shirt because finance isn't paying out dependent BAH/FSA/slow-rolling DEERs enrollment (I know that one isn't finance) for his new husband Bob, the shirt should be supportive in Amn Joe's attempts to un-###### his pay and benefits. Do you really think a shirt who so strongly believes gay marriage is wrong will put in the same effort for Joe and Bob that he would put in for Joe and Barbara?

Yes I do. I'd say it's pretty apparent you were never a Shirt. Or known one that well. At least not one worth a shit.

[brickhistory]

Gotta love the "support mind, body, and soul" mantra for gay rights and marriages within the USAF being displayed.

Ok, the rules now are it's all good and everyone's equal.

Right, play by those rules or get out. Fair enough.

But enthusiastically support, even in your private opinions, something you find objectionable? Being a professional is not good enough in that you carry out those rules despite any private thoughts on the matter?

Did and would you make the same argument when gays were getting kicked out for being gay and the 1st Sgt was involved in that process and may have thought differently, i.e., "I don't agree with the 'no gays' rules, but I have to do my job." It appears that only one view is permissable, let alone acceptable now. 'Tolerance,' indeed.

Off to 're-education' camp for you.

Also regarding the "cheerleader" first sergeant theme:

True, that individual is supposed to help sell the commander's, and Big Blue's, policies and rules to the troops (BTW, not just the enlisted).

But he or she is also supposed to be the voice of the troops back to the commander: "Hey, boss, got a minute? Lemme close the door..."

Sad what you think of them and sadder still if that is all you've experienced.

[tac airlifter]

Gotta love the "support mind, body, and soul" mantra for gay rights and marriages within the USAF being displayed.

Interesting to note the hypocrisy as well; progressives weren't advocating that a homosexual first sergeant profess loudly his personal disdain for gay marriage a year ago..... No, no, they all thought it was a foul that he was forced to lie about himself just for a job. But now a heterosexual first sergeant must really and truly believe in the rules he administers, it's not enough to just do so competently, he needs to be a true believer or the thought police come after him. This isn't about equality, never was. This is about power eradicating other points of view.

You can't argue with hypocrites, they'll always have a reason why it's ok to justify their way of operating. There will be more of this stuff, anytime I hear talk about tolerance it's always a cover for "give me power so I can be intolerant towards other beliefs."

[brickhistory]

The guy was asked his personal opinion on a new, still controversial subject that affects both straights and gays.

He was sacked because his commander didn't like that opinion.

Not, based upon the article, on how well he did or did not do the job, but for having a different private opinion.

Nice diversion of the argument, but I am sticking to the topic at hand, a differing private opinion. And, by the way, as a commander, you don't get to "fire" your first sergeant based upon your perception. You have to prove, via documentation and formal proceedings, on why you want to replace your first sergeant.

Command by personal whim. I think there have been a few threads on that.

And I pity the future of the USAF because I see it is strong with you...

[Duff_Man]

https://www.stripes.com/news/air-force/first-air-force-same-sex-couple-granted-joint-spouse-assignment-happy-to-be-moving-forward-together-1.241381

I bet they'll fit right in with all the judgmental Mormons in Salt Lake City.

[SurelySerious]

https://www.stripes.c...gether-1.241381

The comments on the article are unbelievably stupid, standard.

[pawnman]

I'm not sure I see the problem here. We know the AF has said that as an institution, they approve of homosexual marriage. What basis would they have to deny a join-spouse assignment after all the preaching about tolerance and acceptance we've just had?

I'm not looking forward to the AF having a public affairs field-day with this couple..."First gay couple to shop in the commissary", "first mil-to-mil gay couple to buy a house in SLC", "first gay join-spouse couple separated because one is deploying"...

[Toro]

Gay, lesbian troops perform in drag at Kadena Air Base fundraiser

Sophie's Choice - this, or

[xaarman]

TIB spends government funds in an era of tightening fiscal policies, this was a freebie fundraiser where people paid their own money to see a show.

I don't really think it's much of a choice.

[SuperWSO]

Gay, lesbian troops perform in drag at Kadena Air Base fundraiser

Sophie's Choice - this, or

Kadena, don't they fly light grays there? I hate to stereo type, but sometimes the shoe just fits.

[panchbarnes]

Gay, lesbian troops perform in drag at Kadena Air Base fundraiser

Sophie's Choice - this, or

How can the Air Force allow such promotion of excessive sexuality to take place on base and at the same time crack down on workplace display of personal items that might be interpreted as sexually offensive. The attendees should be labeled as bystanders and cowards for not reporting this violation to leadership and SAPR.

Regardless of your sexual preference this is just total hypocrisy. Would it be okay if someone held a heterosexual female pole dancing contest at the O-club? No, it would be an outrage in this day and age. The organizers and attendees would be punished severely and kicked out of the AF.

On the other hand, the GLBT fundraiser organizers will probably get rewarded with quarterly awards and firewall 5s for this little event.

Last thing, GLBT activists should be outraged at them for perpetuating the stereotype (unless it's true) that gays and lesbians are nothing but freak shows & cross dressers instead of the regular hardworkin' warfightin' airmen that they should be.

Edited March 3, 2014 by PanchBarnes

[Egghead]

How can the Air Force allow such promotion of excessive sexuality to take place on base and at the same time crack down on workplace display of personal items that might be interpreted as sexually offensive. The attendees should be labeled as bystanders and cowards for not reporting this violation to leadership and SAPR.

Regardless of your sexual preference this is just total hypocrisy. Would it be okay if someone held a heterosexual female pole dancing contest at the O-club? No, it would be an outrage in this day and age. The organizers and attendees would be punished severely and kicked out of the AF.

On the other hand, the GLBT fundraiser organizers will probably get rewarded with quarterly awards and firewall 5s for this little event.

Last thing, GLBT activists should be outraged at them for perpetuating the stereotype (unless it's true) that gays and lesbians are nothing but freak shows & cross dressers instead of the regular hardworkin' warfightin' airmen that they should be.

I missed the pole dancing in there. Drag isn't sexual (at least that show wasn't). It's no worse than the hilarious powderpuff games I've watched at high school games with the guys in cheerleaders outfits and chicks in football jerseys. What about all the youtube vids of soldiers/marines/airmen/sailors in only short shorts singing madonna or Brittany spears?

Mountains out of molehills.

[panchbarnes]

The point is if we are going to play gotcha games with a picture of a girl in bikini at your desk and throwing out runner's world, then the show was in gross violation of the AF's policy of a healthy work climate (people do work at the club).

Pole dancing was just hypothetical. Okay, how about a swimsuit contest at the O-club? The video highlighted one of the male cross dressers prancing around suggestively in corset and stockings. I'm no prude, but again the AF is trying to promote sexual assault prevention awareness and workplace professionalism. They need to get with the program.

Edited March 3, 2014 by PanchBarnes

[hispeed7721]

The point is if we are going to play gotcha games with a picture of a girl in bikini at your desk and throwing out runner's world, then the show was in gross violation of the AF's policy of a healthy work climate (people do work at the club).

This.

There is blatant hypocrisy with the sole objective of "being fair" at the expense of consistency.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's no worse than the hilarious powderpuff games I've watched at high school games with the guys in cheerleaders outfits and chicks in football jerseys.

Really? What does high school have to do with this? When was the last time you saw "guys in cheerleaders outfits and chicks in football jerseys" in the AF? Comparing drag to HS powderpuff has dick (sts) to do with anything in the military

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Egghead]

Really? What does high school have to do with this? When was the last time you saw "guys in cheerleaders outfits and chicks in football jerseys" in the AF? Comparing drag to HS powderpuff has dick (sts) to do with anything in the military

OK, history fun fact of the day: WW2 U.S. Soldier Drag Show (1942) | The Public Domain Review

Panch, someone seriously thought runnersworld was distasteful? Holy $H**. I can understand where you're coming from better now.

[HercDude]

Panch, someone seriously thought runnersworld was distasteful? Holy $H**. I can understand where you're coming from better now.

What rock have you been living under?

[hispeed7721]

OK, history fun fact of the day: WW2 U.S. Soldier Drag Show (1942) | The Public Domain Review

Panch, someone seriously thought runnersworld was distasteful? Holy $H**. I can understand where you're coming from better now.

Not to drag your previous statement out, but a WWII drag show still doesn't have dick to do with a HS powderpuff game. A drag show then vs a drag show now, got it.

Hopefully that second statement is a joke, my sarcasm detector may be inop this morning