What's wrong with the Air Force?

[edcadore]

As a 2dLT, looking at all of these problems with the AF is kind of depressing to know that I have to deal with this BS in my career. Is there any hope of change? There's obviously a lot wrong with AF but what are some solutions to fix these? Where in your career do you have to be to start fixing these problems or are they only manageable when you have some stars on your shoulders?(Or by that time are you too out of it to even know whats going on?)

[Guest]

As a 2dLT, looking at all of these problems with the AF is kind of depressing to know that I have to deal with this BS in my career. Is there any hope of change? There's obviously a lot wrong with AF but what are some solutions to fix these? Where in your career do you have to be to start fixing these problems or are they only manageable when you have some stars on your shoulders?(Or by that time are you too out of it to even know whats going on?)

Stop.

You're a Lt. Life is better than good. Stop worrying and start enjoying.

[TrainerModel]

As a 2dLT, looking at all of these problems with the AF is kind of depressing...

Yea, this thread started bumming me out as well, then I was at MPF, looked around at everyone in there, and felt awesome again. We have a pretty awesome job...

Edited August 26, 2011 by TrainerModel

[nsplayr]

Wait, what? Who said that? (WRT no excuse for not getting a MA done as a LT...)

Bergman. Those direct words. Check his post, then check my post again where I quoted him directly. That's part of why I'm giving him sh*t because that's so far from making any kind of sense...one really big excuse for not having it done as an LT and that applies to most here is flight training, which unlike in Bergman's experience perhaps, frequently can take 3+ years to produce a mission-qual'd aviator at an operational squadron.

How much time does your masters degree demand of you? Not an accusation, a real question.

Depends on what program you do and if it's in person, online, etc. For me, not a whole lot, maybe 4-5 hours per week for 1 class at a time (and ridiculous 16 week courses have really stretched out that timeline but don't get me started on that...) I felt like I could get it done while in the FTU and still perform to the level I wanted so I started when I did. For other dudes who wanted to do one of the in-person programs on base or in town, PEXing yourself out for every Tuesday and Thursday from 6-9pm wasn't gonna cut it when they were still in training.

YMMV is the bottom line. I didn't have kids at the time, my FTU was probably not the hardest one out there, I was motivated by personal reasons to get my Masters anyways. Encouraging guys to do the same to the point where it's taught as procedure when their situations are different is BS. As you're fond of saying, it was technique only.

You've got to be kidding me if anyone out there really thinks that the gnat's ass timing of your masters degree completion matters. Let's just throw out content or actual learning altogether! Hell, let's throw out the content of the actual officer's job performance and look not only at the box being checked, but how long the ink's been dry! Craziness...it shouldn't be a freaking race to look good, a MA should be an ancillary measure of actually being good.

[Guest]

You didn't acknowledge my comment about what Jumper really meant. Did you catch that? I only ask because I don't want you (or anyone else around here) to get smoked someday when you say that out of context in front of someone who knows the true context of that statement.

flight training, which unlike in Bergman's experience perhaps, frequently can take 3+ years to produce a mission-qual'd aviator at an operational squadron.

No, this is what I was reacting to. Over three years for a guy to be MR in a squadron now? Seriously?

Yikes.

Either things got REALLY fucking hard to learn in the past couple years or the pace of training is very slow for what I would imagine are a wide variety of reasons based primarily upon the impact of real world combat ops tempo on the training programs/assets.

If it is the latter I would think you might have some spare time in those 3+ years...as you stated you did. What you do with that time is your choice. However, if it is dwell time during/between training I would not think you are also asserting people should somehow be "learning how to not suck in the jet and how to employ his weapons system downrange" on their own program outside of some formal training course they are already enrolled in.

How, exactly, do you propose to increase "mission focus" for a Lt caught up in training program with an additional 50% dwell time?

Depends...

Exactly.

I don't care if guys get their master's as Lts but I do think they should if they can because it gives them more, not less, turning room in the future...but that's technique only (in case you also wanted to accuse me of spouting procedure).

Again, I feel for you guys but I am also advising everyone to be aggressive and drive the fight instead of finding yourself out of options at the floor. That's not being careerist, that's winning the engagement.

[SocialD]

No, this is what I was reacting to. Over three years for a guy to be MR in a squadron now? Seriously?

Yikes.

Either things got REALLY fucking hard to learn in the past couple years or the pace of training is very slow for what I would imagine are a wide variety of reasons based primarily upon the impact of real world combat ops tempo on the training programs/assets.

I know two dudes who were Captains before the even made it to the FTU! Also knew quite a few guys that made Capt while in the B-Course. These were all guys who had no previous jobs...extended time on casual, UPT delays (38 crashes), >400 days from UPT graduation to starting IFF, Hog wings cracking, Eagles breaking apart, Viper bulk heads cracking! Most took adavantage of the situation and finished their masters...all used their time wisely, took leave and partied their asses off!

There were even a few guys who gave up their Viper/Hog assignments after being told their wait to start IFF would be >450 days...I think they went the the C-17 and KC-10.

Edited August 26, 2011 by SocialD

[nsplayr]

You didn't acknowledge my comment about what Jumper really meant. Did you catch that? I only ask because I don't want you (or anyone else around here) to get smoked someday when you say that out of context in front of someone who knows the true context of that statement.

I did...I don't understand how someone would "smoke" me for saying I thought that if the AF wants you to get a masters they should send you and that previous leaders has entertained thoughts similar to that.

Over three years for a guy to be MR in a squadron now? Seriously?

Seriously.

If it is the latter I would think you might have some spare time in those 3+ years...as you stated you did. What you do with that time is your choice.

Exactly, it should be a choice and it shouldn't come back to bite a guy who chooses not to do what I did and start their MA. That's not the case however when you start looking at, "Well gee, when did he get it done?"

However, if it is dwell time during/between training I would not think you are also asserting people should somehow be "learning how to not suck in the jet and how to employ his weapons system downrange" on their own program outside of some formal training course they are already enrolled in.

Nope, absolutely not. So if a guy chooses to start his MA during BITs, great. I'd say you're hard pressed to actually finish the degree in there however, and once mission training starts that should be the focus. I'd also argue that the first year you're mission qual'd should be totally focused on learning your job in the jet and in the squadron versus worrying about schoolwork that has no bearing on your ability to perform/lead/etc. So, now you've been in the squadron for a year, maybe have some MA work knocked out but most likely not the full degree, and you've been a Captain for over a year because you arrived at the squadron with two bars on each shoulder already. How does that common scenario fit into Bergman's mythical timeline for success?

How, exactly, do you propose to increase "mission focus" for a Lt caught up in training program with an additional 50% dwell time?

That's not the time I'm talking about, it the first year in the squadron after you're checked out. Right now that's prime time for guys to be told to "finish up that masters" and that's a total foul. They should be being told to study their pubs, ask questions, and pick up the slack on additional duties a distant third.

I don't care if guys get their master's as Lts but I do think they should if they can because it gives them more, not less, turning room in the future...but that's technique only (in case you also wanted to accuse me of spouting procedure).

Agreed...it gives you more options later and you certainly don't get less busy as your career goes on, but it's technique. Not something that should be constantly debriefed to guys who choose to focus on the mission or their squadron duties or their families.

I just think the system needs to change, bottom line. To expect dudes to have their masters done well before their first look at the Major's board, considering most MA programs take 2-3 years to complete, is stupid. If guys come into the squadron as Captains as many, many do at least in my community, that puts them working hard on their MA when they should be working hard to be competent copilots. They should be worrying about AC upgrade, not a MA in Basketweaving or whatever.

[BitteEinBit]

As a 2dLT, looking at all of these problems with the AF is kind of depressing to know that I have to deal with this BS in my career. Is there any hope of change? There's obviously a lot wrong with AF but what are some solutions to fix these? Where in your career do you have to be to start fixing these problems or are they only manageable when you have some stars on your shoulders?(Or by that time are you too out of it to even know whats going on?)

What Rainman said. Enjoy your time while you're young and innocent! We bitch about a lot of things bad about the Air Force, but there are 10X as many things GOOD about the Air Force. Very few, if any, of these things we bitch about would make ME leave the Air Force by themselves. The last thing I want to do is discourage new bubbas from joining the Air Force.

I personally bitch about these things because it wasn't always that way, and somehow we managed to promote people back then (to Capt/Major specifically) without using Master's degrees as a discriminator. We really aren't helping anyone by FORCING young dudes to get a Masters 2 years into their careers...especially those who make a career out of the military. What exactly are you going to do with an 18 year old Masters degree when you get out at 20? You're going to go back to school to get current again...

Lt, you're in a good position (STS) with your fresh perspective to help identify and fix some of these inefficiencies. Don't be discouraged...at least you know they are out there! Yes, I think things will change for the better...

Edit for spelling...

Edited August 26, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[Bergman]

Mods, can you change a dude's avatar? If so, I found one for Bergman.

Well played. Couldn't be further from the truth. But well played nonetheless.

It's only defeatist if the primary goal is to be promoted. Bold for emphasis.

True. My going-in assumption was career longevity is the ultimate goal here. I personally want to continue to fly USAF jets for as long as possible. If having to get a masters is a requirement for that, then so be it. I hated every minute of it and absolutely no other desire to get the degree than to satisfy the BS Air Force requirement. If you weren't planning on staying in, then there is no way in hell I would get a masters unless you wanted it for future opporunities.

That's part of why I'm giving him sh*t because that's so far from making any kind of sense...one really big excuse for not having it done as an LT and that applies to most here is flight training, which unlike in Bergman's experience perhaps, frequently can take 3+ years to produce a mission-qual'd aviator at an operational squadron.

How does that common scenario fit into Bergman's mythical timeline for success?

I call bullshit. 3+ years for training? NFW. 6 months casual, 12 months UPT, 12 months FTU (longest FTU?), 6 months MQT. That is three years and is worst-case. KC-135 initial qual, for example, is only 5 months. If it's taking longer than that, then there were obviously significant delays during training or a year+ in casual, which was likely spent smoking and joking in the squadron and obviously not working on a masters.

Look, my point here is not to argue semantics of who took this long to do what. My point is that if you are planning on staying in and hoping to make rank, get your masters done ASAP. Your life and career will become more busy the longer you wait.. You don't want to be the guy who waits until the year before the major's board to start the program and then gets shafted on his PRF because an unexpected TDY or PCS derailed your masters plan.

Get it done early and you will have one less thing to worry about for the rest of your career.

Bergman, nothing against you personally, but that attitude and line of thinking is exactly the reason why we waste money and no one cares to change it. You are correct, that is the way it is TODAY and if you want to get promoted high enough to help make changes, you have to do it. But continuing the attitude of "that's the way it is or has always been" is the reason why officers who bitched about these very things 10 years ago are the same ones dishing it out today. They are in a position to change it but they don't because now that they have been promoted things like that don't seem that important and why? "That's what they had to do to get promoted."

Don't worry, I'm not taking it personally. I stand by my statement that if you don't play the game the way it is TODAY, you won't be around TOMORROW to help fix it. I can't speak to the douchebags who are responsible for this crap continuing but I can assure you that if I personally am ever in a position to fix it, I will. Don't get your hopes up; that doesn't seem likely any time soon.

All I'm saying is how we mandate it TODAY promotes inefficiencies and wasteful spending. Using when you complete a masters as a measuring stick for promotion is backwards thinking.

I agree 100%. It's box checking and it is bullshit. But I would hate for good dudes/operators to get passed over for promotion simply because they didn't just suck it up and get it done. That is the whole reason I pitched into this argument in the first place.

Again, I feel for you guys but I am also advising everyone to be aggressive and drive the fight instead of finding yourself out of options at the floor. That's not being careerist, that's winning the engagement.

SHACK! Maybe they'll actually listen when you say it.

I know two dudes who were Captains before the even made it to the FTU! Also knew quite a few guys that made Capt while in the B-Course. These were all guys who had no previous jobs...extended time on casual, UPT delays (38 crashes), >400 days from UPT graduation to starting IFF, Hog wings cracking, Eagles breaking apart, Viper bulk heads cracking! Most took adavantage of the situation and finished their masters...all used their time wisely, took leave and partied their asses off!

You mean they didn't sit around whining about the requirement, not complete it, then 10 years later shake their heads when they are passed over for promotion? Say it ain't so.

I just think the system needs to change, bottom line. To expect dudes to have their masters done well before their first look at the Major's board, considering most MA programs take 2-3 years to complete, is stupid.[ /quote]

At last, we agree.

[JarheadBoom]

A serious question, related to the original topic, for those who have been around long enough/are high enough on the food chain to provide a good answer:

Is 10 "support" personnel per aircrew member, in a deployed location, too many?

It sounds like it should be too many, but I honestly don't know enough about the details of the AF logistics tail to bitch too loudly about that ratio. I understand that some MDS's need more support folks than others...

[BitteEinBit]

If having to get a masters is a requirement for that, then so be it. I hated every minute of it and absolutely no other desire to get the degree than to satisfy the BS Air Force requirement.

Exactly the reason it is wasteful spending...(in this case) it benefits NO ONE. I'm sure your record is probably good enough to get promoted without it...

And that is my point...

Edited for context

Edited August 26, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[pawnman]

A serious question, related to the original topic, for those who have been around long enough/are high enough on the food chain to provide a good answer:

Is 10 "support" personnel per aircrew member, in a deployed location, too many?

It sounds like it should be too many, but I honestly don't know enough about the details of the AF logistics tail to bitch too loudly about that ratio. I understand that some MDS's need more support folks than others...

Depends...are you talking about services guys (finance, MPF, persco) or maintenance folks? I submit that 0.5 services to 1 aircrew member is too many.

[Guest]

I did...I don't understand how someone would "smoke" me for saying I thought that if the AF wants you to get a masters they should send you and that previous leaders has entertained thoughts similar to that.

By getting smoked I meant make fun of you.

Look, you can argue with me about this if you want but you are fucking wrong about what Jumper meant and you sound like a fucking punk when you spit it back at me like I'm somehow full of shit for trying to help you out.

Agreed...it gives you more options later and you certainly don't get less busy as your career goes on, but it's technique. Not something that should be constantly debriefed to guys who choose to focus on the mission or their squadron duties or their families.

They should be worrying about AC upgrade, not a MA in Basketweaving or whatever.

You know what, you can say whatever you want but getting your master's degree and being good in the jet and paying attention to your family are not mutually exclusive.

I know for a fact that they are not.

FWIW, I think people are getting promoted WAY too early. That's a big part of the problem. You shouldn't even be looking at your O-4 board until the 12yr point (12 solid years as a Capt flying the line) or your O-5 board until your 15-16 yr point (pin on by 17 as the goal). That would relieve a lot of stress on the system.

[AZwildcat]

You shouldn't even be looking at your O-4 board until the 12yr point (12 solid years as a Capt flying the line)

That's basically my dream

[nsplayr]

True. My going-in assumption was career longevity is the ultimate goal here. I personally want to continue to fly USAF jets for as long as possible. If having to get a masters is a requirement for that, then so be it. I hated every minute of it and absolutely no other desire to get the degree than to satisfy the BS Air Force requirement. If you weren't planning on staying in, then there is no way in hell I would get a masters unless you wanted it for future opportunities.

All of that is valid, I just look at it like career longevity shouldn't be the goal for anyone really, especially dudes who are inclined to punch anyways. Not everyone needs to play the game nor should they, and those who do plan on staying should endeavor to change the game rather than just bend over and take it.

I call bullshit. 3+ years for training? NFW. 6 months casual, 12 months UPT, 12 months FTU (longest FTU?), 6 months MQT. That is three years and is worst-case. KC-135 initial qual, for example, is only 5 months.

Oh yea, I forgot, I was making it all up. /sarcasm

WTF man, do you think I'm f-ing lying to you here or what? Call BS all you want, say NFW, I'll tell you I have seen it with my own pair of MK-1s and it applies to a great number of pilots in-processing to my community.

You don't want to be the guy who waits until the year before the major's board to start the program and then gets shafted on his PRF because an unexpected TDY or PCS derailed your masters plan. Get it done early and you will have one less thing to worry about for the rest of your career.

This is all true and good, it's good technique to have it done rather than not because then your bases are covered. Where I disagree is whether, because this is true, dudes should just bend over and take it. I say no...do what you need to do to ensure success (may involve checking the box), but do everything possible to make the system better for the next guy versus just educating him on how to game the current, shitty system more effectively than you did.

... I can assure you that if I personally am ever in a position to fix it, I will. Don't get your hopes up; that doesn't seem likely any time soon.

Who has a defeatist attitude now?

Look, you can argue with me about this if you want but you are fucking wrong about what Jumper meant and you sound like a fucking punk when you spit it back at me like I'm somehow full of shit for trying to help you out.

Got it, I won't quote Jumper if that's not what he meant and people are getting butt-hurt over it (unlikely in real life conversations because I've said it before). I'll leave it at "this is what I think" and I know many, many heads have nodded and said the same thing before I came along anyways. That was the whole point of even referencing recent history...I'm not making this sh*t up and this whole conversation probably has happened 6-9 before and will happen again until someone gets it fixed.

You know what, you can say whatever you want but getting your master's degree and being good in the jet and paying attention to your family are not mutually exclusive.

Regardless of if you can balance everything, I still stand firm on that dudes that are < 1 year into their MWS should not be worrying about their Masters. That's your prime time to become at least a book expert on your weapons system so by time you can get some experience and hours you can marry the two together nicely. Time is a finite resource and you can't tell me that time spend on a masters is not better spent in the squadron learning your job instead of with your head in an econ book or whatever. You should be getting an MA in KC-135 ops or "insert MWS here" ops.

FWIW, I think people are getting promoted WAY too early. That's a big part of the problem. You shouldn't even be looking at your O-4 board until the 12yr point (12 solid years as a Capt flying the line) or your O-5 board until your 15-16 yr point (pin on by 17 as the goal). That would relieve a lot of stress on the system.

Agreed sort of, but 8 years as a captain before your first look? Specifics aside, yea, if you promoted later it all work work out fine and you'd have plenty of time to get that MA done while in the squadron but after what I consider the most important first year learning your primary job. But in the real world, if you show up at an O-3, spend a year learning your MWS and getting seasoned, then spend 2-3 years doing a masters, you're just barely getting your shit in order for your first look. Thus the problem.

Edited August 27, 2011 by nsplayr

[Prozac]

FWIW, I think people are getting promoted WAY too early. That's a big part of the problem. You shouldn't even be looking at your O-4 board until the 12yr point (12 solid years as a Capt flying the line) or your O-5 board until your 15-16 yr point (pin on by 17 as the goal). That would relieve a lot of stress on the system.

2. Isn't this the way it was not so long ago? Then the Air Force realized that, oh god say it ain't so, Army and Marine officers were promoting on a faster timeline than the AF. If we were only more like the Marines...a cool motto, high collared dress uniforms, and quicker promotions could only help our service right?

[JarheadBoom]

Depends...are you talking about services guys (finance, MPF, persco) or maintenance folks?

Dunno - the distinction was not made.

We were too busy looking at each other going "WTF?!?", since the previous sentence had been about how many crews per MDS were here.

[matmacwc]

It is 3 years for an MR wingman in the fighter community. 1 year UPT, 5 month wait for IFF and then IFF is 3 months. You get 3-4 months of BIT (break in training) until RTU. RTU is 6-9 months, then PCS to your combat base and then spin up MQT of 3 months or so. These are the cards that are being dealt, at least in the CAF. Not those young LT's to Captains fault, just the way it is. You should see a captain going through UPT, they may only have 2 OPR's as a combat asset when their PRF is due, ouch!

[Guest]

Then the Air Force realized that, oh god say it ain't so, Army and Marine officers were promoting on a faster timeline than the AF. If we were only more like the Marines...a cool motto, high collared dress uniforms, and quicker promotions could only help our service right?

This.

[Guest]

people are getting butt-hurt over it

The only person acting butt hurt is you.

many, many heads have nodded and said the same thing before I came along anyways.

I know. And they are wrong, like you. I have heard Jumper himself regret having said that because it has been so widely misunderstood.

Regardless of if you can balance everything, I still stand firm on that dudes that are < 1 year into their MWS should not be worrying about their Masters. That's your prime time to become at least a book expert on your weapons system so by time you can get some experience and hours you can marry the two together nicely. Time is a finite resource and you can't tell me that time spend on a masters is not better spent in the squadron learning your job instead of with your head in an econ book or whatever.

Stand firm if you wish. It didn't fuck me up or the other guys I knew who did it.

It's work but it can be done and you're better off in the long run. There's no amount of standing firm or arguing the contrary that changes that fact. You're better off.

Agreed sort of, but 8 years as a captain before your first look? Specifics aside, yea, if you promoted later it all work work out fine and you'd have plenty of time to get that MA done while in the squadron but after what I consider the most important first year learning your primary job.\

Are you saying it should be more of fewer than 8 yrs as a Capt before your primary O-4 board?

But in the real world....you're just barely getting your shit in order for your first look. Thus the problem.

Yeah, that's what I said.

[Stunna]

It makes all officers look bad. I would be embarrassed to show this thread to anyone with stripes.

My stripes agree with the general sentiment of this thread...

Gotta get back to working on that class for my CCAF and stop reading officer complaints...

[pawnman]

You know, of all the threads that come through this board, the same damn thing keeps popping up, whining about career stuff. Everyone complains about how they hate PME and how they hate getting a master's degree. If you don't want to play the damn game, accept the consequences. If you want to play the game, then stop whining about the damn rules! It's really that simple, but that's not enough for some people, and they want to bitch about their "hardships".

nsplayer, if guys are so busy satisfying career requirements that they are neglecting their primary duties, then they are bad aviators, period dot. If you had any balls whatsoever, you would call them out on their decision to put their careerism ahead of everything. Otherwise, stop bitching about it. Life is a series of decisions, and each one has consequences. Hell, the biggest hypocrites in the world are the people who get out at 20+ years as an O-5 and then bitch about how the Air Force ruined their marriage or kept them from their kids or whatever.

A man accepts the consequences of his actions. But deciding to climb a mountain, and then whining about how steep the climb is, is just being a whiny fucking SNAP (and I hate using that term). If you want something to worth complaining about, complain about the PTSD cases that go undiagnosed all the time. Complain about people getting screwed over by their supervision for no reason. Complain about stupid policies. Or even complain about benefits! But for the love of God, stop complaining about fucking master's degrees. It makes all officers look bad. I would be embarrassed to show this thread to anyone with stripes.

The problem is, as a LT, nsplayer has very little power to affect the system. You can call those guys out to their face, but the boss will still promote them because they have an MA and SOS done (X2). That is the core problem....Air Force leadership doesn't seem to care if you can operate on a tactical level, as long as you are checking the right boxes. I've flown with O-5s who are absolutely terrible in the jet, I mean not even IQC level knowledge...but they did the MA, they did SOS and ACSC in correspondence and some joint school in residence, so they were the competitive guys, while the real tactical leaders in the squadron got passed over for not doing ACSC fast enough or not having enough outside activities.

[AEWingsMN]

No, this is what I was reacting to. Over three years for a guy to be MR in a squadron now? Seriously?

Yikes.

Either things got REALLY fucking hard to learn in the past couple years or the pace of training is very slow for what I would imagine are a wide variety of reasons based primarily upon the impact of real world combat ops tempo on the training programs/assets.

If it is the latter I would think you might have some spare time in those 3+ years...as you stated you did. What you do with that time is your choice. However, if it is dwell time during/between training I would not think you are also asserting people should somehow be "learning how to not suck in the jet and how to employ his weapons system downrange" on their own program outside of some formal training course they are already enrolled in.

uhh... this is pretty much how it is now days. 3 Yrs. I'm almost mission qual'd and when I get to it, I will be just short of 3 years. I'm probably toward the front end of being MR outta my UPT class. Couldn't have streamlined it more, I even got bumped up 2 months before UPT and then started FTU 3 months earlier than scheduled. Pretty similar for just about every ROTC guy I know. Academy guys get through about 6-9 months quicker (literally), at least from my class, because they went straight to IFS, skipped ASBC and went right to pilot training without stalling. God forbid you're a ROTC guy who went to Whiting, even the academy guys I know who went to Whiting and graduated UPT when I did are about to pin on captain and just getting Mission Qual'd.

My ROTC bros on the other hand got the generous 6 months of no pay, no scholarship eligibility, no TA, and no G.I. bill. Work full time to pay rent/food, not enough time to then work for the money to pay for a masters and take the masters class. DOR is 3 months into that 6 months.

Those 6 months + 5 months ASBC/IFS/random weeks in between trainings/Casual + 1 year of pilot training + 10 months for PCS/SERE/FTU/Mission Qual'ing = just short of 3 years from commissioning streamlined to Mission Qual. I don't really care that it took me this long, and I plan on having my masters early enough into being a Captain that it won't matter. But I had to throw in my 2 cents because evidently those who saw what must have been a better system just seem to really have a hard time fathoming that it is currently taking this long now to get pilots Mission Qual'd.

There's plenty of ways to streamline the overall system even more. Evidently we just have to go back to the way it was when some of the older members of the board went through. Maybe this AF wouldn't be so fucked up if you could make rank by using the mind set of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Instead, now we have everything "fixed".

Edited August 27, 2011 by AEWingsMN

[nsplayr]

If you don't want to play the damn game, accept the consequences. If you want to play the game, then stop whining about the damn rules! It's really that simple, but that's not enough for some people, and they want to bitch about their "hardships".

Bullshit. Change the system so the next guy doesn't have the same stupid ass rules you had. I refuse to either do the full-stiff arm that results in total career failure or the bend over and can I please have some more sir. There is a middle ground where you know the rules, check the boxes when appropriate, but do everything possible to both change the system and steer those younger than you on the correct path, which to me is focusing on the mission first and doing anything else second.

nsplayer, if guys are so busy satisfying career requirements that they are neglecting their primary duties, then they are bad aviators, period dot.

It's not even that most people are bad aviators. I'm perfectly capable of doing my MA and being competent in the jet and so is any other bro except maybe the bottom of the barrel. My point is that as I've grown in the squadron and experienced more, I'm realizing more and more all the stuff I don't know. Because of this, I want the next guy who'll replace me not to make the same mistakes I did and I strongly believe that involves focusing more attention on primary duties and less on MAs, SOS, snacko, etc. Hell, there supposedly was a mythical time in AFSOC where new guys didn't even have additional duties for a period of time (rainman, feel free to kick me in the balls if my history is wrong here). What a concept...the mission is so important that it's all we want you to focus on when you're fresh out of the school house.

It makes all officers look bad. I would be embarrassed to show this thread to anyone with stripes.

Go F yourself...really? I'm more than happy to explain this concept to any airman in my squadron and I'm sure they'd agree that the AF puts too much emphasis on looking good and box-checking education versus being good at your primary job. Ask them about the pressure to finish up that online Bachelors in General Studies if they don't really want to and don't need it for their job...

Are you saying it should be more of fewer than 8 yrs as a Capt before your primary O-4 board?

I don't really know, it just seems like a really long time since dudes are now pinning major around 11 years total, to not even get a first look until 12 and then pin on 6-9 months later. Haven't been around enough to know the consequences of promoting slow versus promoting fast and obviously there are positives and negatives to both. I'm still pissed that my army buddies all put on O-3 after 3 years but whatever...they have to be in the Army so that more than makes up for it.

[ThreeHoler]

I don't really know, it just seems like a really long time since dudes are now pinning major around 11 years total, to not even get a first look until 12 and then pin on 6-9 months later. Haven't been around enough to know the consequences of promoting slow versus promoting fast and obviously there are positives and negatives to both. I'm still pissed that my army buddies all put on O-3 after 3 years but whatever...they have to be in the Army so that more than makes up for it.

Exactly. You have no reference. Your argument is about as useless as saying we should go back to the old way, circa the World Wars: you don't promote to 1Lt until you achieve basic qualification in your job.