What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Champ Kind]

God this guy sounds like a douche-bag. His "response" to the Chaplain, IMO, only made it worse.

"STRATEGIC" reasons? Abbreviating Airman's Creed (AC) and Air Force Song (AFS)? Give me a fucking break, shoe.

[ExBoneOSO]

Found this buried in the Military Times forum about this E-9...apparently the Chaplain pulled him aside and basically asked him WTF was he thinking...

blah blah and more blah.....

Correct me if I'm wrong (this old fart is getting old..), but can't the Chief's message be summed up like this:

a. "I didn't want to answer the Chaplain's questions (even though he outranks me), but he made me do it.."

b. "I want the Wing to look good for all the dog and pony shows coming downrange."

c. "Oh yeah, there's a mission..but I'm more interested in everyone knowing the Creed"

ETA: Timing is everything - what Champ Kind said too

Edited September 6, 2011 by ExBoneOSO

[SuperWSO]

Found this buried in the Military Times forum about this E-9...apparently the Chaplain pulled him aside and basically asked him WTF was he thinking...

"BLUF: Answers to Airman’s Creed and Air Force Song requirements.

Never thought I’d be compelled to answer the “Why’s” on this AGAIN, but after the Wing Chaplain asked for a sit-down with me this morning he passed on a perspective I hadn’t thought about.

words, words, words.

BOTTOM LINE: I guarantee that some will continue to poke holes and cast dispersions into this exercise in uniformity, leadership, and followership. Have at it. Some will argue that the words to the Creed are all just words. I guess that’s where the basic problem begins and ends.

ROCK BOTTOM LINE: I’m more interested in the mission than ANYTHING else. I am more interested in our Airman than in our stuff. I am more interested in Professional Development than in making sure nobody gets their feelings hurt. I expect good order and discipline. And, if you remembered this from previous emails…I asked all of US to make the AC personal to you…especially since those stanzas begin with I.

V/R"

Three thoughts on this.

1) Chaplains aren't frequently discussed on this forum, but hats off to the Chaplain for providing feedback to the Chief ->

2) Someone needs to discuss what a "Bottom Line" is. This guy has three of them.

3) Question for the Weapons Officers - when you cast dispersions, what is the anticipated CEP? I've heard of casting aspersions, but maybe he was going for something different.

[ExBoneOSO]

Apparently the good Chief doesn't know his own uniform wear regs...as seen on the Military Times forum.

6.3.2. Eyeglasses/Sunglasses/Contact Lenses. Will be worn in the manner for which they are made. Eyeglasses and sunglasses will not be worn around the neck or on top/back of head or exposed hanging on the uniform.

"Chief, those aren't sunglasses I see hanging around your neck, right?"

[herkbum]

Apparently the good Chief doesn't know his own uniform wear regs...as seen on the Military Times forum.

"Chief, those aren't sunglasses I see hanging around your neck, right?"

Busted!

[Goblin]

Someone needs to compose a 4 page e-mail with 5 bottom lines about how unprofessional the AF looks because of that picture

[Bergman]

Apparently the good Chief doesn't know his own uniform wear regs...as seen on the Military Times forum.

"Chief, those aren't sunglasses I see hanging around your neck, right?"

I'm no expert on 35-10, but isn't there a line in there that says, roughly, "Don't ride a fucking camel in uniform"??

[nsplayr]

Can someone at ASAB with some balls reply to his original email and attach that pic of him on the camel? That would be epic.

Edited September 6, 2011 by nsplayr

[Guest]

3) Question for the Weapons Officers - when you cast dispersions, what is the anticipated CEP? I've heard of casting aspersions, but maybe he was going for something different.

The GAU-8 has a 5 mil dispersion. That means an average combat shot will have 45' of dispersion for 80% of the rounds at 9k slant range. It is important to note that mils subtend a greater distance at longer slant ranges so you would not want to open fire any further than 9k. Flashlight effect aside, that means 0.075 bullets/square foot on a 9k slant range three second burst...and that is with the perfect Track-Shoot-Track and no Aiming Error (which is the greatest and most common of all errors in weapons delivery by any platform).

So, you can see you do not want to cast any more dispersion than is inherent in the system since bullet density is the key to Pk.

Does that help?

[TrainerModel]

show pride for those Marauders not in attendance ...you can make a statement about being an American Airman and a Marauder

What is this Marauder stuff he's talking about? Some unit nickname or does he really think that Airman and Marauder are interchangeable terms now? Or even worse, thinks himself as some type of raider etc.

[Prosuper]

There seems to be allot of cross flow between this thread and one the AF times forum https://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1590814-Any-Truth-In-This

plus it is now very interesting reading the back and forth between the diamond and star wearers and the regular SNCO's. Maybe it is time in the Senior NCO Corp which I was a member of to have a meeting in the club get drunk and get some stuff off our chests or a little blood letting between the mission first guys and the perfumed princes.

[sky_king]

The GAU-8 has a 5 mil dispersion. That means an average combat shot will have 45' of dispersion for 80% of the rounds at 9k slant range. It is important to note that mils subtend a greater distance at longer slant ranges so you would not want to open fire any further than 9k. Flashlight effect aside, that means 0.075 bullets/square foot on a 9k slant range three second burst...and that is with the perfect Track-Shoot-Track and no Aiming Error (which is the greatest and most common of all errors in weapons delivery by any platform).

So, you can see you do not want to cast any more dispersion than is inherent in the system since bullet density is the key to Pk.

Does that help?

That's fine and all, even though I'm not sure why that would matter. The real question is, what's the third verse of the AF song?

[HercDude]

Finally, to clear-up the misconception about calling people out. Here’s how that will go down. It’s not going to be me doing the majority of the call-outs. It will primarily be the Junior Airmen calling us senior folks out. SFS folks are doing it now. Honor Guard members are doing that now. Sure, the CC and I have asked for gathered groups to recite in unison. Those who could…did. So, will I ever make a public spectacle of someone over this? Absolutely not. Will I ever humiliate someone over this? Never. Do I still expect folks to know it. Absolutely yes. Ask around…there haven’t been any Airmen singled out to recite. There have been groups though. And every sortie went perfectly.

So now a sortie is defined as a group of Airmen with more inportant shit to do getting Chiefed?

This absurd abuse of aviator terminology has got to stop.

[BattleRattle]

So now a sortie is defined as a group of Airmen with more inportant shit to do getting Chiefed?

This absurd abuse of aviator terminology has got to stop.

I guess you have to find a way to stay relevant...

[skinny]

So now a sortie is defined as a group of Airmen with more inportant shit to do getting Chiefed?

This absurd abuse of aviator terminology has got to stop.

Kind of like how the OTS cadre have FCIFs and a "mission planning" room?

[BattleRattle]

On the MilitaryTimes.com forum, the writer of post #214 suggests that the CCM wishes he could have that (first) e-mail back--truer words never spoken.

[MKopack]

On the MilitaryTimes.com forum, the writer of post #214 suggests that the CCM wishes he could have that (first) e-mail back--truer words never spoken.

I guess there's always a chance that this could be a "teachable moment", but there's probably just as good a chance that he's now sitting in the corner of a mental bunker, wearing a helmet, declaring victory and thinking that there are so many left to educate about the contamination of their precious bodily fluids...

[SuperWSO]

There seems to be allot of cross flow between this thread and one the AF times forum https://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1590814-Any-Truth-In-This

plus it is now very interesting reading the back and forth between the diamond and star wearers and the regular SNCO's. Maybe it is time in the Senior NCO Corp which I was a member of to have a meeting in the club get drunk and get some stuff off our chests or a little blood letting between the mission first guys and the perfumed princes.

WOW, there is some outstanding reading to do there. Can someone capture that and turn it into PME?

My favorite is having someone blink "douchery" in morse code while singing/reciting.

[Hacker]

The guy in that other thread (fantastic read, BTW...it's great to see stripe-wearers in there duking it out with the shoe clerks!) who lumped McPeak, Jumper, and Moseley together in the same boat as being responsible for the USAF jumping the tracks needs to be choked. His message is correct, but 2 of the 3 targets of his spears are right out.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I don't understand what all the rant is anyway...if you do not know the Airman's Creed or the Air Force Song and you wear the USAF uniform...don't call yourself a leader. PERIOD.

One of my favorite quotes defending the idiocy there. So knowing the Airman's Creed and singing the AF song makes you a leader? Really? So what did we all do prior to the Creed being developed? I'm an O-4 and I honestly don't know the creed, nor do I think memorizing it will make me a better leader. It's moronic attitudes like the above that's killing our organization. It's simple-minded box-checking eyewash, not actually being a real leader.

[pawnman]

Since 90% of those voices will be ENLISTED, 90% of the opportunity to show uniformity in those LIMITED engagements will be OURS. Similarly, 90% of the opportunity to look disjointed will be ours as well. Say what you may, but this is where we can collectively show pride for those Marauders not in attendance . Granted, there’s no technical sense or mission sense in reciting the Creed or Singing the Song. But for those who can and will, you can make a statement about being an American Airman and a Marauder. I’m confident that we’ll display being of one function, form, and voice during those Airman’s calls on the horizon. One of those is tomorrow afternoon and the CC will be leading us all in the Airman’s Creed and the AF Song. We won’t let him down.

Well, at least he recognizes he's adding nothing to the fight.

[TrainerModel]

I don't understand what all the rant is anyway...if you do not know the Airman's Creed or the Air Force Song and you wear the USAF uniform...don't call yourself a leader. PERIOD.

This is terrifying

[GovernmentMan]

Yeah, a little bit. I have a feeling that one of the most common mental blocks out there (among the "knowing it means you're a great leader" crowd) is the simplistic notion that people resist the Creed/Song simply because they don't know it, can't be bothered to learn it, or simply don't want to do it in public. I wonder how that misplaced, smug sense of cultural superiority would fare if somebody got Chiefed, recited the Creed/Song on command, and then politely explained to the REMF that his shitty priorities are laughable and counterproductive.

Edited September 7, 2011 by GovernmentMan

[Hacker]

I'm surprised that we are not also having widespread malign for this E-9's boss, who has allowed this mindset to take hold. After all...this E-9 was pretty clear that this was HIS BOSS' idea "vector".

[disgruntledemployee]

My turn.

I was back home not too long ago and somehow ended up chatting with a few gents that just happened to be elected officials. At one point, we chatted about the military. Want to guess what impresses them? I ain't no creed, chant, or cheer. They see right through that shit! Its the personal stories and seeing our guys in action. Take some of them out on a range and show them a team taking on the "enemy" and they just beam with pride. Tell them a story like the "Pedros" rescue, and they'll eat that morning noon and night for a month. Listen to them in their speeches. They never say, I went to base x and all the airmen chanted a creed and sang a song. No, they pull the personal connection string, "Let me tell you about SrA Joe Somebody, he's a real hero." Dogs and miniature horses shows are a waste of everyone's time. There are so many other great ways to tell a story of our efforts and not one of them involves a chant or song. Besides, looking a little disheveled adds to our true salty nature. There's a reason why Americans love the Dirty Dozen and any other scrappy team.

So, to our deployed command chief, I offer this viewpoint. Make mission first. When a codel shows up, show them people doing the mission. Let them step on a hot, dirty Herk as maintainers are getting her ready for a mission. Show them EOD taking care of business. Let them sit down for chow in the main room (not the special little room) with everyday joes. You get the point. When they leave, they will have seen the mission and gotten a few personal stories to tell their constituents. Lastly, since when is it the job of the US Military to please and stroke politicians? I thought it was to fight wars or do some of that Constitutional defending stuff. Reciting a chant will not protect the defense budget.

Now that everyone is doing mission first, there's no need to recite any songs or chants. However, I will offer this about the chant. If it was such a great and inspiring piece of literature, people would want to know it more that the latest Katy Perry song.

Lastly, I will end with some leadership. It stuff like this that makes my job essential. And that is to reset the priorities of those I work for, but more importantly, those that work with me.

Out