What's wrong with the Air Force?

[pcola]

I get what you're saying, but everyone knows what this means. We can bitch and nit-pick, but we all know what constitutes an "inappropriate" so to speak. That's what makes it funny. If you don't understand that, please stop using STS because you're not doing it right.

Yes, we all know what a suggestive phrase is. And it's not actually even that funny, but even though (as a MAF guy) I don't understand or partake in it, it makes me sick that "leadership" is making an effort to highlight and eliminate an integral part of the CAF culture in an effort to appease a minority group of hyper-sensitive non-essential personnel.

In any case, I was actually referring to the "will no be tolerated" part when I asked what that even means. How are they planning to un-tolerate it when it would be extremely difficult to prove any actual wrong-doing if any resulting paperwork was actually challenged by the "offender?"

I'd bet my balls that the official paperwork says something along the lines of "CGO used sexually suggestive verbiage specifically barred by the CC." You can split hairs over what is a legal word and what's not. Anything that comes close to "sexually inappropriate" is a hot potato for leadership and you will most certainly be considered guilty immediately.

I agree, you will most certainly be considered guilty by your leadership (assuming your leadership are the douchebags in the chain of command associated with the posted MFR.) And there are avenues to challenge the "guilty" consideration by your leadership. I don't see a vague explanation by leadership of "used sexually suggestive verbiage specifically barred by the CC" holding water if challenged in a legal proceeding.

I can see it now:

IG/JA: And what was the sexually suggestive verbiage?

CC: Mbr said "so to speak" after I specifically forbade it in writing.

IG/JA: And what was the context of the offensive verbiage?

CC: Umm, I don't know, I think he was insinuating a double entendre of a sexual nature.

IG/JA: But you're not sure?

CC: Yes, I'm sure, I know it when I see it.

IG/JA: Umm, yeah, thanks for your time.

Obviously a simplified example, but an illustration none-the-less of how difficult this would be to find someone guilty of wrongdoing for the use of a double entendre such as the phrase "so to speak."

I know, people are thinking "yeah, it's shitty, but I'm not willing to risk my strat, job, upgrade, assignment, etc over this." The bottom line is this: if it's that important to your culture, stand up and challenge it. I don't think the author of this particular MFR has a leg to stand on WRT this particular decree (the banning of specific common phrases.) If it's not important enough to risk your standing in the Sq over, then SUAC. I don't have a dog in this fight, but as an outsider, this effort smells of yet another instance of cockbreath leadership to me.

Edited September 29, 2013 by pcola

[Toro]

So if, for example, you calculate your rotate speed at 69 knots, must you now rotate at 70? Will all briefings now be 10 minutes to avoid offending someone by falling in the 6-9 minute range? We should also probably ban the ILS into KBQK.

6 and 9 are just numbers and they happen to comprise 20% of available digits. It would be very difficult to operate with only 80% of digits for those of us having jobs involving numbers merely to avoid possibly offending those who sexualize every comment and are then offended by their own interpretation. Sometimes this feels like high school.

Please tell me you're not being serious.

This is the problem.

You can't blindly rattle this shit off sounding like a douchebag totally disregarding your audience. I will admit that it so ingrained in me that I have to pause and stop when I'm talking to somebody who may not appreciate or understand it. These days most folks don't understand why you're saying it, and if they don't you look like an asshole. Know your audience. We can continue doing our things, but if you put your *cranium* down and try to run forward at full speed with your agenda, you're not proving a point. You're being a dickhead.

[matmacwc]

I think the problem is fighter pilots are turning on fellow fighter pilots.

AND sts.

But seriously.

Edited September 29, 2013 by matmacwc

[HU&W]

Please tell me you're not being serious.

This is the problem.

You can't blindly rattle this shit off sounding like a douchebag totally disregarding your audience. I will admit that it so ingrained in me that I have to pause and stop when I'm talking to somebody who may not appreciate or understand it. These days most folks don't understand why you're saying it, and if they don't you look like an asshole. Know your audience. We can continue doing our things, but if you put your *cranium* down and try to run forward at full speed with your agenda, you're not proving a point. You're being a dickhead.

Negative. Sarcasm. Check fire. I can see how you may have misread my intent because I worded my post poorly. My post was not a dig on our culture. It was commentary on those who are external to our culture, seize on a single element, and then take offense. It was also meant to highlight leadership policies that presuppose offense and generate a blanket restriction without considering second and third order effects.

[BitteEinBit]

Remember guys, the new focus is on "grading" commanders on how well they stop sexual harassment in the workplace. Banning the use of these terms is scoring this guy extra credit points. 4 stars for this guy!

As long as we continue to openly celebrate sexuality in this service as a distinguishing characteristic (ie homosexuality), I will continue to publically voice the fact that I love boobs, women, 69, everything else that goes with it...I want to celebrate my heterosexuality! This thread needs boobs.

Edited September 29, 2013 by BitteEinBit

[Liquid]

Have I missed this gem being posted somewhere on baseops?

Can someone explain to me how sexist and inappropriate sexual actions and language at work makes fighter pilots better at their job?

Personally, I am not offended easily. I enjoy crude language and jokes, alcohol, gambling and our American culture that values sexuality and violence in our entertainment. Professionally, however, I have little tolerance for words and actions that degrade, humiliate and disrespect our coworkers. It is against the law to sexually harass someone at work and it is clearly not accepted by our civilian and military leadership. Military officers should know not only how to act professionally, but how to lead Airmen to get the mission done without illegal and inappropriate actions and words.

On forums like this, it doesn't matter how many sexual innuendos or jokes you use to entertain yourself and others. At work, it does matter. Our AF leadership at all levels has tolerated and participated in this corrosive behavior for too long and it is changing.

Defend why you need to be able to make sex jokes to or in front of a 19 year old female Senior Airman to be good at your job, motivated to continue to serve or have high morale. And don't give me this "we only say this stuff in front of our bros" shit. The sexist culture is seen and understood by virtually everyone in our AF and many of us don't understand it and/or are disgusted by it.

I challenge you to enlighten me and those like me without resorting to excessive personal attacks and predictable 69 jokes. Fire away.

[Tulsa]

I was just watching a Southwest commercial which said the fuel saved by winglets allowed for $69 fares. Someone should show them this letter and get the sexual harassment courses spun up. As a consumer, I'm offended at such language on TV, on a Sunday no less. I wonder if the 12AF folks are calling up Southwest to voice their disgust as well.

[di1630]

Can someone explain to me how sexist and inappropriate sexual actions and language at work makes fighter pilots better at their job?

You are missing the point. Did boozing and growing a mustache make Robin Olds a better pilot? This is about traditions, fun, work hard/play hard, fun competition via verbal BFM being taken away because some chick who didn't earn her stripe threw the whole fighter community under the bus. And because all the leadership involved are at a level where they have traded their wings and balls to become politicians, ever in fear that not making their next star will lead them to the BX where they have to wear the USAF retired hat while knowing that nothing they did really fvcking mattered.

I'm tired of being treated like an 18 yr old amn basic. I did well enough in life to get where I am, I expect a little goddamn respect and not to be lumped in with every f-stick that actually causes trouble. Lastly, who is the USAF to preach morality and decide what is offensive and not?

[magnetfreezer]

Can someone explain to me how sexist and inappropriate sexual actions and language at work makes fighter pilots better at their job?

Personally, I am not offended easily. I enjoy crude language and jokes, alcohol, gambling and our American culture that values sexuality and violence in our entertainment. Professionally, however, I have little tolerance for words and actions that degrade, humiliate and disrespect our coworkers. It is against the law to sexually harass someone at work and it is clearly not accepted by our civilian and military leadership. Military officers should know not only how to act professionally, but how to lead Airmen to get the mission done without illegal and inappropriate actions and words.

On forums like this, it doesn't matter how many sexual innuendos or jokes you use to entertain yourself and others. At work, it does matter. Our AF leadership at all levels has tolerated and participated in this corrosive behavior for too long and it is changing.

Defend why you need to be able to make sex jokes to or in front of a 19 year old female Senior Airman to be good at your job, motivated to continue to serve or have high morale. And don't give me this "we only say this stuff in front of our bros" shit. The sexist culture is seen and understood by virtually everyone in our AF and many of us don't understand it and/or are disgusted by it.

I challenge you to enlighten me and those like me without resorting to excessive personal attacks and predictable 69 jokes. Fire away.

We don't "need" it to do our jobs. We also don't need masters degrees, wellness days with bouncy castles for the kids, or even weekends off. People do work better when they have morale and a tight knit culture (one that can't be imposed - it has to develop). In addition, we need aggressive professionals - someone with a corporate mentality won't be as effective at taking a 60 into a hot LZ or Hogs/Vipers on a one way trip across the Fulda Gap/DMZ. Part of developing the aggressiveness and trust among those you will kill with is knowing they will always have your back and you theirs; no matter how offensive the situation, you will always protect each other as brothers/sisters. Finally, I have known people who were harassed; equating so to speaks, bar songs and 69 jokes with their situations or the trauma of some of the Invisible War stories cheapens what was suffered by true victims.

[Lawman]

While we are up for this massive culture shift in the military, lets get rid of Betty.

I am offended for.... For someone I'm not sure who but I am. The implication at men can only respond to the shrill sound of what can only be presumed to be an Angry 33 year old divorcee collecting yet another child support check while she tells me everything I'm doing is wrong is just insulting.

It can't be a hot sounding chick either... If I listened any better to pretty girls my wife wouldn't be so pissed off I was ignoring her all the time.

[Longhorn15]

Liquid,

The death of the fighter pilot culture is destroying the morale and brotherhood in fighter squadrons. Being a fighter pilot used to be a lifestyle, but you and those like you have reduced it to simply being another job. Roll calls and bar stories are dying, because everyone knows that it isn't safe to hang out there. All the informal learning that used to happen over beer/scotch is dying too, so yes our culture did make us better at our jobs.

When you see retention numbers drop in the next few years, I'm sure you'll point to some other factor, but I won't be staying one day past my ADSC.

[Azimuth]

Can someone explain to me how sexist and inappropriate sexual actions and language at work makes fighter pilots better at their job?

Personally, I am not offended easily. I enjoy crude language and jokes, alcohol, gambling and our American culture that values sexuality and violence in our entertainment. Professionally, however, I have little tolerance for words and actions that degrade, humiliate and disrespect our coworkers. It is against the law to sexually harass someone at work and it is clearly not accepted by our civilian and military leadership. Military officers should know not only how to act professionally, but how to lead Airmen to get the mission done without illegal and inappropriate actions and words.

On forums like this, it doesn't matter how many sexual innuendos or jokes you use to entertain yourself and others. At work, it does matter. Our AF leadership at all levels has tolerated and participated in this corrosive behavior for too long and it is changing.

Defend why you need to be able to make sex jokes to or in front of a 19 year old female Senior Airman to be good at your job, motivated to continue to serve or have high morale. And don't give me this "we only say this stuff in front of our bros" shit. The sexist culture is seen and understood by virtually everyone in our AF and many of us don't understand it and/or are disgusted by it.

I challenge you to enlighten me and those like me without resorting to excessive personal attacks and predictable 69 jokes. Fire away.

Why was it never a big deal with the songs, callsigns, etc until the past two years? Have you always felt that way about fighter pilot culture? Did you do anything to change it before the USAF conducted witch hunts?

[JarheadBoom]

Have I missed this gem being posted somewhere on baseops?

[Letter of Weakness]

Holy shit, this is a FIGHTER SQUADRON commander?

I would understand (and even expect) this kind of weak sauce from an AETC or AMC SQ/CC.

[brabus]

I have little tolerance for words and actions that degrade, humiliate and disrespect our coworkers.

Great, we DO NOT do that. You say don't "give me that in front of bros shit," but actually it's true. Sure things have slipped out (sts) at an ops desk or two, but you and others on this bullshit bandwagon have this grandiose horrible viewpoint of our culture when in fact your view is ludicrously far from reality. We're very respectful to the 1COs, AFE troops, etc. Stop acting like at every step brief we throw down with our favorite S&M Man verse, right after telling the 1CO she should wear less clothes. This shit does not happen.

You want the playboy pinups taken out of the bathroom, out from behind some guy's desk, fine I get it. But to be quite frank, that's about the only thing I've seen that can in any logical way be considered harassment to others. The number 69 is just a number, so to speak is a common phrase, etc. What we sing in our bar with the door closed (no shit) is none of your business and I fully mean this when I say, you are NOT allowed to be offended of something you've neither seen nor heard or will ever be "forced" to hear, but only have an inflated and incorrect opinion of based off of bullshit premises.

Now, before you blow your lid, I think a dude should get crushed for REAL harassment at work. If some guy's making passes at the A1C in life support, telling her "nice tits, you should take your shirt off," then fuck yeah, that guys an asshole and should get what's coming to him. As you're well aware, there are shitbags in EVERY AFSC, base, etc. I don't think it's much to ask to leave the 99% of us alone that do not do this shit and actually put effort towards doing something about the 1% who actually "do the things" the anti-fighter pilot community erroneously thinks runs rampant in our community. Going after 69, songs and callsigns is the weak dick response of spineless leadership who are too afraid/unable to tackle the real problem, so instead they go after what's easy and visible.

[Disco_Nav963]

I would love to see an actual breakdown of where sexual harassment/sexual assault claims are coming from (sts) in the Air Force. I guarandamnedtee you the Operations Group will be significantly underrepresented (and within the OG, the OSS will be significant overrepresented... just as they are for DUIs).

[Danny Noonin]

I agree with most of your post, but...

The number 69 is just a number, so to speak is a common phrase, etc.

Gimme a fucking break. It's colossally low SA like this that has caused this little bit of unwanted attention.

If 69 is just a number, no different than any other number, than start throwing 25 into sentences instead. It's just a number as well.

You can't throw that stuff around in public (which happens all the time and we all know it) then claim innocent intentions when anyone points that out. No one is that naive.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Danny Noonin

[busdriver]

you are NOT allowed to be offended of something you've neither seen nor heard or will ever be "forced" to hear, but only have an inflated and incorrect opinion of based off of bullshit premises.

Those traditions are in civilian politicians' sights. Generals can fall on their swords to your heart's desire, it won't change anything. Doesn't mean you can't have fun or hang at the bar.

I don't disagree that it won't fix the true problem. I also resent being lumped in with a bunch of assholes as if my actions create would be rapists.

[Liquid]

Great, we DO NOT do that. You say don't "give me that in front of bros shit," but actually it's true. Sure things have slipped out (sts) at an ops desk or two, but you and others on this bullshit bandwagon have this grandiose horrible viewpoint of our culture when in fact your view is ludicrously far from reality. We're very respectful to the 1COs, AFE troops, etc. Stop acting like at every step brief we throw down with our favorite S&M Man verse, right after telling the 1CO she should wear less clothes. This shit does not happen.

You want the playboy pinups taken out of the bathroom, out from behind some guy's desk, fine I get it. But to be quite frank, that's about the only thing I've seen that can in any logical way be considered harassment to others. The number 69 is just a number, so to speak is a common phrase, etc. What we sing in our bar with the door closed (no shit) is none of your business and I fully mean this when I say, you are NOT allowed to be offended of something you've neither seen nor heard or will ever be "forced" to hear, but only have an inflated and incorrect opinion of based off of bullshit premises.

Now, before you blow your lid, I think a dude should get crushed for REAL harassment at work. If some guy's making passes at the A1C in life support, telling her "nice tits, you should take your shirt off," then ###### yeah, that guys an asshole and should get what's coming to him. As you're well aware, there are shitbags in EVERY AFSC, base, etc. I don't think it's much to ask to leave the 99% of us alone that do not do this shit and actually put effort towards doing something about the 1% who actually "do the things" the anti-fighter pilot community erroneously thinks runs rampant in our community. Going after 69, songs and callsigns is the weak dick response of spineless leadership who are too afraid/unable to tackle the real problem, so instead they go after what's easy and visible.

https://protectourdef...N_COMPLAINT.pdf

Bullshit, it happens too frequently and "you" encourage it and protect it. No other "culture" or AFSC actively defends their "right" to act like a sexist asshole like some (not all or most) in the fighter community. Many regularly post here.

You call me dickless and spineless for not tackling the real problem, when you don't demonstrate knowledge of the real problem or solutions. I and other senior leaders know that these policies are not the only thing we need to do, but changing the unprofessional culture is definetly a part of it. Don't be so naive to think that these policies are the only things being done to address the unacceptable number of sexual assaults and incidents of sexual harassment. The FS/CC memo that was posted should have created absolutely no comment except, "Of course. Why is this memo even necessary?" Instead, we get a bunch of whining jackasses who attack it and cry that without moronic songs, innuendos and word games, our fighter pilot force will quit.

Your obsession with using and defending the use of the number 69 to sexualize workplace situations that should not be sexualized is absurd. Your argument that we have mistakenly misinterpreted your persistent use of this number in inappropriate situations is also absurd. It is not just a number, it is a fighter centric word game tradition based on inappropriate sexualization in the workplace. Does it equal rape, absolutely not. Nobody is saying it does. But this tradition, along with sts, "that's what she said" and inappropriate call signs do not belong in the work place, period. A fighter squadron commander said so in his memo and so did Lt Gen Rand, who is an exceptional leader and fighter pilot. I truly don't understand why this is so hard for some to understand or embrace.

We have a fundamental disagreement about what REAL harassment looks like. You seem to think private (in the vault, no females or easily offended males around) sexist behavior, with the occasional slip up at the ops desk, is ok. I don't. Neither does Congress, JCS, HAF or your GO leadership. Demanding your group of "bros" goes along with your inappropriate traditions in order to get along is wrong and it will no longer be tolerated.

In ten years, we will look back at the fighter-centric culture that embraced these unprofessional, sexist and inappropriate traditions and we will wonder why our institution allowed it to happen for so long. sts, 69, sexist callsigns, squadron song books and word game traditions will die and our AF will be better off for it.

I'm not posting this to pick fights. I'm trying to relay one senior leader perspectvive about what is happening and why.

Holy shit, this is a FIGHTER SQUADRON commander?

I would understand (and even expect) this kind of weak sauce from an AETC or AMC SQ/CC.

Why is it weak sauce and why do you expect non-fighter pilots to say it more than fighter pilots?

[Liquid]

Why was it never a big deal with the songs, callsigns, etc until the past two years? Have you always felt that way about fighter pilot culture? Did you do anything to change it before the USAF conducted witch hunts?

Yes. During pilot training, I realized I didn't want to be a fighter pilot. Not saying I would have made through FTU but I chose to go to AFSOC and I am glad I did. I deeply respect fighter pilots and most of their culture, as much as I respect the other AFSCs that make up our great AF. I do not care for the sexist traditions and I have told every fighter pilot friend and peer at every opportunity. Most of them agreed with me and strengthened my faith in our ACC talent and leadership.

I think it wasn't a big deal because we never had a CSAF willing to directly take the culture on. I respect the hell out of Gen Welsh for making this a priority.

I would love to see an actual breakdown of where sexual harassment/sexual assault claims are coming from (sts) in the Air Force. I guarandamnedtee you the Operations Group will be significantly underrepresented (and within the OG, the OSS will be significant overrepresented... just as they are for DUIs).

Why would you love to see this? To show we are wasting our time addressing these issues? The MSG and MXG don't need to release MFRs that say don't use sexual innuendo, inappropriate call signs, explicit lyrics and early afternoon drinking. Their enlisted and officer leadership does not tolerate it. Some in the Ops Group do. The Ops Group has a ridiculously larger number of officers than the other groups and a much smaller number of young enlisted, so there are fewer discipline incidents. So what is your point? Commanders shouldn't release memos like this or talk about this because the ops group never commits sexual harassment/assault crimes?

You are missing the point. Did boozing and growing a mustache make Robin Olds a better pilot? This is about traditions, fun, work hard/play hard, fun competition via verbal BFM being taken away because some chick who didn't earn her stripe threw the whole fighter community under the bus. And because all the leadership involved are at a level where they have traded their wings and balls to become politicians, ever in fear that not making their next star will lead them to the BX where they have to wear the USAF retired hat while knowing that nothing they did really fvcking mattered.

I'm tired of being treated like an 18 yr old amn basic. I did well enough in life to get where I am, I expect a little goddamn respect and not to be lumped in with every f-stick that actually causes trouble. Lastly, who is the USAF to preach morality and decide what is offensive and not?

Are you saying that I have traded my wings and balls and nothing I have done matters? And you want some respect? And authority?

The AF absolutely should decide what is offensive and what is not. Leaders at all levels, including our officer pilots, should have an opinion about whether what we say at work complies with specific federal laws and DoD guidance. Why do you think we shouldn't?

[BCan]

What are the new rules for crud in our great Air Force?...I'm guessing the Wing/CC isn't going be refereeing under the old verbiage?

Wikipedia:

Failing to be within the end of the table while making contact with the object ball and the shooter ball is a foul, called Balls (or Lips if female), and the offending player is assessed a life.

[nsplayr]

Why would you love to see this? To show we are wasting our time addressing these issues? The MSG and MXG don't need to release MFRs that say don't use sexual innuendo, inappropriate call signs, explicit lyrics and early afternoon drinking. Their enlisted and officer leadership does not tolerate it. Some in the Ops Group do. The Ops Group has a ridiculously larger number of officers than the other groups and a much smaller number of young enlisted, so there are fewer discipline incidents. So what is your point? Commanders shouldn't release memos like this or talk about this because the ops group never commits sexual harassment/assault crimes?

The point is there seems to be a lot of attention being paid to a very small part of what is causing actual problems. Is my using "69" in a sentence causing Congressional-level problems? Certainly not. What's causing the big problems, and what is unacceptable, is actual, no-shit sexual assault and harassment. I know you know the difference. Let's focus our limited amount of fire and brimstone on dudes who are actually hurting their fellow airmen and save the "counseling" for those inappropriately using 69 for the squadron-level leaders if they find it to be a problem in their squadrons. Threatening paperwork in an emailed memo is weak dick leadership and reeks of a witch hunt waiting to happen.

Are "69," "so to speak," etc. somewhat unprofessional, probably, but then again I never was one harping on that professionalism should be the highest priority we pursue. Way too often those advocating that we act "professionally" in all circumstances are "funges" (fun-sponges) who are worried about CYA, their next promotion, and catering to the most easily-offended person imaginable.

Can we start judging professionalism based on how we perform the mission and take care of our people rather than how often we use 69 and go out and drink on the weekend? I thought we were supposed to be professional mission-hackers and leaders of war fighters, not professional golden-boy Ward Cleavers.

[magnetfreezer]

Yes. During pilot training, I realized I didn't want to be a fighter pilot. Not saying I would have made through FTU but I chose to go to AFSOC and I am glad I did. I deeply respect fighter pilots and most of their culture, as much as I respect the other AFSCs that make up our great AF. I do not care for the sexist traditions and I have told every fighter pilot friend and peer at every opportunity. Most of them agreed with me and strengthened my faith in our ACC talent and leadership.

I think it wasn't a big deal because we never had a CSAF willing to directly take the culture on. I respect the hell out of Gen Welsh for making this a priority.

Why would you love to see this? To show we are wasting our time addressing these issues? The MSG and MXG don't need to release MFRs that say don't use sexual innuendo, inappropriate call signs, explicit lyrics and early afternoon drinking. Their enlisted and officer leadership does not tolerate it. Some in the Ops Group do. The Ops Group has a ridiculously larger number of officers than the other groups and a much smaller number of young enlisted, so there are fewer discipline incidents. So what is your point? Commanders shouldn't release memos like this or talk about this because the ops group never commits sexual harassment/assault crimes?

The AF absolutely should decide what is offensive and what is not. Leaders at all levels, including our officer pilots, should have an opinion about whether what we say at work complies with specific federal laws and DoD guidance. Why do you think we shouldn't?

On the MXG/MSG issue, if you've been around crew chiefs, cops or EOD to name a few they like drinking and dirty/ dark humor just as much as we do.

Honest question on the second point then, what is the end state WRT offensiveness? Some vegans I've met have the same reaction to beef as an EO manager would have to so to speaks. Will we discourage squadron burger burns? Then, many Baptists are offended by alcohol - close the class six? Ban coffee makers to support conservative Mormons who believe caffeine is wrong? The idea of trying to be non-offensive to everyone (vs making it clear that regardless of language, harassment and assault will be dealt with swiftly by any member of the squadron) quickly becomes a slippery slope.

[Azimuth]

I think it wasn't a big deal because we never had a CSAF willing to directly take the culture on. I respect the hell out of Gen Welsh for making this a priority.

I, as well as most people here, think the CSAF is truly a great leader however his hand was forced with regard to this topic. As he's sitting in front of Congress getting grilled about the Lackland scandals, the 1C0 TSgt at Shaw, the SAPR Chief being arrested, etc. He really didn't have a choice in the matter with all of the mounting political pressure.

Do you honestly believe, especially since he is a fighter pilot, that he would force his Commanders to make the changes like ones listed in the policy letter, had all of those events I listed not happened with a small time period? I'm not sure he would've.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Azimuth

[Liquid]

On the MXG/MSG issue, if you've been around crew chiefs, cops or EOD to name a few they like drinking and dirty/ dark humor just as much as we do.

Honest question on the second point then, what is the end state WRT offensiveness? Some vegans I've met have the same reaction to beef as an EO manager would have to so to speaks. Will we discourage squadron burger burns? Then, many Baptists are offended by alcohol - close the class six? Ban coffee makers to support conservative Mormons who believe caffeine is wrong? The idea of trying to be non-offensive to everyone (vs making it clear that regardless of language, harassment and assault will be dealt with swiftly by any member of the squadron) quickly becomes a slippery slope.

Nobody is going after offensiveness, just sexual harassment and sexual assault. A Sq/CC put out a memo defining expectations and it caused interesting comments from this crowd. Stop using a slippery slope argument about burgers to justify behavior that is clearly out of bounds.

[Danny Noonin]

Honest question on the second point then, what is the end state WRT offensiveness? Some vegans I've met have the same reaction to beef as an EO manager would have to so to speaks. Will we discourage squadron burger burns? Then, many Baptists are offended by alcohol - close the class six? Ban coffee makers to support conservative Mormons who believe caffeine is wrong? The idea of trying to be non-offensive to everyone (vs making it clear that regardless of language, harassment and assault will be dealt with swiftly by any member of the squadron) quickly becomes a slippery slope.

Really?