What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Danny Noonin]

Wrong. I and 98% of the other fighter pilots I know/have met execute colossally high SA by removing "69," "6-9," "sts," etc. from our lexicon when outside the FS, at meetings with non-ops, etc. It's like Toro said, you sound like an idiot when you talk like that around others who aren't in the community. The 2% who don't do this are the new Lt's who haven't learned quite yet (reference Raptor wingmen story above).

Wait, what?

You're mixing issues. You said 69 is just a number. So to speak is a common phrase. Nothing to see here. It's all perfectly innocent. When I pointed out the obvious bullshit of that statement, your response is that I'm wrong because 98% of dudes don't say it at the ops desk??? Huh?

Can't have it both ways, sts. They are either innocent words or they're not. If they're innocent, then you would have no need to avoid saying them at the ops desk.

The truth is that far too many dudes have zero SA. Far too many are obnoxious and can't shut their cake holes no matter what the audience. We all know it and there far more than just the "2%" wingmen. It might not be many or most, but its not exactly rare. Given the temperature of the water right now, this is why the hammer is getting dropped. No, it doesn't contribute to sexual assault. But you can see why your poor 1CO or intel troop wouldn't want to listen to that shit all day. Should not be difficult to understand.

I find it very difficult to believe all the dramatic reactions to this. 69 and sts are not important parts of the culture nor are they true tradition. They don't enhance camaraderie, help burn off steam, or anything else important. It's also not the first time there has been a high profile ban on those phrases. There were bans way before the sexual assault era back when men were men and real jets carried AIM-7s. The world did not end then, it won't end now, and fighter pilot culture and tradition will be just fine.

Songs on the other hand, are a completely different story...

Edited October 1, 2013 by Danny Noonin

[HossHarris]

Gentlemen--

It is becoming painfully obvious that the management just doesn't get it.

Tilting at windmills to solve perceived problems while doing little to solve actual problems.

But YOU don't have to roll over and take it.

YOU don't have to give up time honored traditions and roles.

YOU don't have to be a part of transforming the Air Force into a corporation.

YOU don't have to abandon the generations of craft and practice that have gotten us where we are.

For the young uns .... Don't believe everything you hear. Opinions here do not necessarily reflect how good (or bad) things are in reality.

/edit spellun and such

//slashies

Edited October 1, 2013 by HossHarris

[Liquid]

Wrong. I and 98% of the other fighter pilots I know/have met execute colossally high SA by removing "69," "6-9," "sts," etc. from our lexicon when outside the FS, at meetings with non-ops, etc. It's like Toro said, you sound like an idiot when you talk like that around others who aren't in the community. The 2% who don't do this are the new Lt's who haven't learned quite yet (reference Raptor wingmen story above).

Did you read what I said? We DO NOT act like sexist assholes, there you go again branding an entire community because you met a couple asshole fighter pilots over your career. I'm not defending those idiots, I'm pissed that my senior leadership is focusing on not having "verson 1.69" on a lineup card instead of putting that weight of effort into smashing the balls of those who actually harass/assault people.

See my response to Danny.

Ironically one of our 1COs has said multiple times the AFSOC squadron she PCS'd from was FAR worse than our squadron in every way of sexual harassment. She said she was shocked at how professional and nice a FS was after "everything she had heard." So here's a data point: one AFSOC squadron is FAR worse than one FS. The point is this stuff can be everywhere, yet the AF is myopically focused on FS because it's the easy, visible target post-TSgt Whatever at Shaw.

Shack. I hear more offensive shit on AFN than I do in an entire day at work. They play songs about doing drugs, banging chicks, killing people...that's OK dudes, but anything other than a pleasant "hello" in a FS is deemed sexual harrassment. What gives Liquid? I do appreciate you coming on here and giving the senior leader perspective, but at least to us line O-2 to O-5 guys, the tone is very "we are the senior leaders and you will put this dick in your mouth or get out of the AF, end of story!" Senior leadership says it wants to hear from the trenches, find answers as to why so many dudes hate this corporation and can't wait to get out, etc. But it clearly falls on deaf ears the majority of the time. I'm completely with you that TRUE sexual assault and harassment is completely wrong and I'll be the first guy in line to kick offending assholes in the balls. What I want to see my senior leadership do is put their money where there mouth is put their entire weight of effort against the real problems, not bullshit like v.169 on a lineup card.

Materials for sale in the BX and programs on AFN are not the same as sexist language and traditions AT WORK. I don't care if you are offended by songs on the radio, movies on TV or magazines in a store. Get over it. I do care about sexual harassment in the workplace. Not because there is a direct link to sexual assault, there isn't. I care because you shouldn't act like a sexist ass at work. And for ######'s sake, nobody is saying every fighter pilot or every maintainer does it. What I am saying, CSAF is saying and Lt Gen Rand is saying, is that it happens too much at work and we need to knock it off.

Why do you think senior leaders aren't putting their entire weight against the real problems? Do you really think cracking down on inappropriate traditions is the only think being done to address this?

I never said any AFSOC squadron was better or worse than any FS, nor would I condone harassment for heritage. And I don't question your data point about this Airman's experience. The AF isn't really myopically focused on this issue. Many non-FS people say getting rid of sexist word games, sexist songs and sexist call signs makes perfect sense. I have trouble understanding the emotional response from some in this forum to what I consider reasonable guidance to not sexually harass at work.

Robin Olds was a great fighter pilot and a true hero. No argument there. I don't know the song so I don't appreciate what you value in it. My grandfather was a B-17 pilot and squadron commander in the Bloody 100th. He was a hero too. Many of the pilots and commanders in my grandfather's era were racist. Many didn't think black pilots could fly or should serve. It may have worked during his time, but it was wrong and we eventually changed the mindsets and traditions. I would not argue that being a racist was what made my grandfather great, and you should not argue that being a sexist is what made Robin Olds great. Times change. We mature and get better. It is time to lose the "traditions" of being sexist while in uniform. We will still have great fighter pilots and leaders. Even Robin Olds obeyed the CSAF's direct order to get rid of the moustache. He didn't quit because he disagreed with the lawful order.

I'm glad you acknowledge the observation that our joint counterparts think the word games make you look like idiots when used outside the community that values them. Don't be so naive to think it doesn't spill over to those not in the community, it does more than you think. You may be disciplined about when you say this shit, but many in your community are not.

Here is my main point. When you use language that blatantly sexual in nature at work, you are creating a hostile work environment and probably sexually harassing someone. To be specific, when you do things at work like sing songs like S&M Man, or have posters or books full of half naked women or porn or use the word 69 to make a reference to a sex act or use sexually explicit language to describe what you like to do to women, you cross a line. It shouldn't matter if nobody was offended or not. When you use the "nobody was offended" litmus test, you pressure members of your group, flight, squadron, whatever, to go along to get along. It is not right to graphically talk about sex or make stupid sex jokes with word games at work. We are Federal employees and military officers. We should comply with Federal laws, policies and expectations to not sexually harass. We should be able to do this and still be steely-eyed killers.

At the CSAF meeting with Wing CCs last year, a female GO fighter pilot stood up and told a story about a male fighter pilot asking her who she had to blow to earn the weapons school patch she recently earned. She ignored the idiot and went along to get along. She said she was a part of the AF that allowed this culture to grow and that she regretted not stopping it. She should not have been put in the situation of having to choose to stand up against sexual harassment or lose credibility with her peers. Our young Airmen and Lts should not have to be the only ones who point out sexually offensive material, hostile work environments or sexually inappropriate activities. Officers, commanders and real leaders should be the ones who stop it. And they should have the judgement and common sense to not go overboard or be overly sensitive to what is offensive.

To be honest, I am surprised by how many people say we should allow sexist traditions to continue. Some argue that the traditions don't really exist, or that they aren't a big deal. Others argue they are an invaluable part of the fighter heritage. I think the latter is bullshit and I don't think it will be hard to stop these relatively few incidents of inappropriate sexist behavior at work. The overuse of the 69 jokes here isn't funny, but I am not offended by it at all here because it is not being done while in uniform and on duty. If you want to continue to make 69 jokes in uniform and/or while on duty, you will get what you deserve. Direct feedback and mentoring about how we expect more out of our officers.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Liquid

[Liquid]

Why do you think that morale is not high?

Why do you think that so many pilots want out of active duty as soon as possible?

What are you and other "leaders" doing to fix those very real issues?

Please be honest and detailed. Thanks.

Ops tempo, AAD for Capts, rack and stacks, bad commanders, Christmas parties, overemphasis on "discipline" and obedience to all written guidance, fewer good deal TDYs, impending budget cuts, emphasis on sexual harassment, RPAs, bad economy. Probably more.

We have also created a force that doesn't value service. Defending this nation while serving in the profession of arms, particularly during a time of war, should motivate us. Not sure why so many have lost faith. Our nation needs airpower and skilled pilots and officers to make sure our military uses airpower properly. If you want to quit because of sock police or on-line master's classes or because it isn't fun anymore, I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Have some courage to change what you can change. Don't sweat the little shit. Tell the person who asks to see your socks to piss off. Identify and change policies that don't make sense. Let your boss know what you are doing. Act like an officer and do the right thing. Take care of your Airmen and your subordinates. Serve because there probably isn't anyone better at this job than you and we will all suffer if you quit.

[nsplayr]

I totally disagree that the use of 69 is sexist. The entire concept of 69 is mutual love and satisfaction. I'd argue in fact it's the most "equal" and respectful toward women of all the sexual references I can think of.

There have been a lot of examples given of actual, no shit sexual harassment and improper work environments (making inappropriate passes at the unfairly hot female Airmen, viewing porn on GOV property, etc.) or just plain being an asshole (i.e. "who did you have to blow to get that patch?"), I think we all get it that that stuff is wrong.

But what the witch hunt is really against IMHO is the sexualized nature of typical interactions between groups of predominantly young males. Good luck winning that fight!

Ops tempo, AAD for Capts, rack and stacks, bad commanders, Christmas parties, overemphasis on "discipline" and obedience to all written guidance, fewer good deal TDYs, impending budget cuts, emphasis on sexual harassment, RPAs, bad economy. Probably more.

Agreed on all except honestly the bad economy of the last 5 years has probably helped retention rather than hurt it. I know my morale is higher knowing I got a raise every year I've been in the service while my buddies in the civilian job market have been getting slammed.

We have also created a force that doesn't value service. Defending this nation while serving in the profession of arms, particularly during a time of war, should motivate us. Not sure why so many have lost faith. Our nation needs airpower and skilled pilots and officers to make sure our military uses airpower properly. If you want to quit because of sock police or on-line master's classes or because it isn't fun anymore, I'm not sure what I can do about it.

This kinda makes me wanna puke honestly. Isn't this the same bullshit the WWII "greatest generation" gave to the Vietnam vets who were their children?

It's a blame-the-accuser mentality that proposes that maybe I'm complaining about getting f*cked in the ass because I don't value service enough, and on top of that Uncle Sam really does needs some asses to f*ck so BOHICA! Excuse my french.

The AF absolutely, 100% has demonstrated that I am nothing more than a number on a spread sheet and because they can only think in numbers, I'm gonna start thinking in numbers too...i.e. taking care of #1. For me that's my family and our future, and as much as I'd honestly like the Air Force to be a part of that I chose to pursue other opportunities. Does that devalue my service in some way as you seem to suggest? Do I not "value service" enough after 7 years and numerous deployments?

Keeping the faith is a two way street and I feel like it took me an above-average length of time to get bitter and jaded...the AF and our leadership did not exactly meet me half way IMHO. I made all that kinda personal, but I'm betting there are plenty of other dudes who feel the same way who would be willing to speak up as well.

Edited October 1, 2013 by nsplayr

[Vetter]

Liquid. You are the reason for low morale. I didn't want to end up like you and your friends, so I quite. I was a shitty officer, but I see many good officers leaving as well.

[nsplayr]

Serve because there probably isn't anyone better at this job than you and we will all suffer if you quit.

Damn straight I'm the best at my job and I think the community will suffer when I punch, but this isn't a priesthood and it's not unconditional faith that keeps me or anyone in uniform. There's gotta be a bright future for both the individual and the organization and career possibilities that match up well with the needs of one's family, otherwise dudes with clearances, masters degrees and combat leadership can and should be willing to "take their talents to south beach" so to speak.

[BuddhaSixFour]

I would not argue that being a racist was what made my grandfather great, and you should not argue that being a sexist is what made Robin Olds great.

Liquid, if you are who I think you are, I'm buying you a beer for that one next time we cross paths. If you're not who I think you are, someone is going to get a free beer. Its worth the risk.

[FallingOsh]

What I am saying, CSAF is saying and Lt Gen Rand is saying, is that it happens too much at work and we need to knock it off.

The only thing the three of you have in common is that you have no idea what really happens in a fighter squadron.

Why do you think senior leaders aren't putting their entire weight against the real problems?

Because Senators have a habit of calling them out on national television, that's why. Civilian leadership (hypocrites by the way) pounded their chests and said something must be done immediately.

Do you really think cracking down on inappropriate traditions is the only think being done to address this?

Cracking down on inappropriate traditions is just one of many completely useless and ineffective things being done.

Not sure why so many have lost faith.

If you and other senior leaders understood then things would be improving. If you understood what is actually happening at the operational level, there would be improvements. The problem is that senior leaders are so disconnected that they can't fix the real issues.

Why don't you stop focusing on the group with the least amount of SAPR complaints? Instead of vilifying pilots for our terrible, inappropriate traditions, why don't you stand in front of the other groups and acknowledge that the OG is actually leading the way in terms of acceptance, professionalism, and lack of sexual assault? Pilots have become a lighting rod for blame. It's easy for a base full of airmen to unite in pointing a finger at fighter pilots. It makes them feel like they're not doing anything wrong because it must be the pilots' fault. Nothing is going to change if the collective Air Force voice says fighter pilots and their silly games are to blame and everyone else is a victim.

Edited October 2, 2013 by FallingOsh

[MD]

Have some courage to change what you can change. Don't sweat the little shit. Tell the person who asks to see your socks to piss off. Identify and change policies that don't make sense.

Funny part is, that the person asking to see your socks is most likely some idiot E-9 or diamond wearer who is following the directive of an equally idiotic wing/group CC to be checking socks. So telling them to piss off, as you recommend, may win one the battle, but they'll ultimately lose the war for "doing the right thing". Today's AF for you.

[Fud]

Robin Olds was a great fighter pilot and a true hero. No argument there.

BG Olds would have been out of today's USAF with a dismissal and jail time. Reading his autobiography was amazing, and I truly loved who this man was.

A few examples:

1. Low fly-by in Europe so he could not be promoted to flag rank and get to go to Vietnam.

2. Wearing an out of regs mustache for morale.

3. Having an affair with his secretary after his change of command ceremony in Vietnam.

4. Putting the tanker pilot in for a silver star when it's pilot violated rules of engagement so the pilot would not be taken to a GCM.

5. Still flying after being promoted to BG overseas during war time.

6. Temporarily grounding (for a month) a pilot who overflew USAFA, when Olds was the COC, and broke every window in the teratzo while breaking the sound barrier.

These are the ones I remember, and there are many more. I hate how we revere these leaders today, but would rake someone over the coals for doing these things in this day and age. I'm surprised the USAF hasn't been made a part of the Quaker religion with how we are expected to act now.

That being said, I do think that overtly sexual conduct or speech does not have a place in the work environment of any organization. I've seen numerous people police this, and I don't fault them for feeling comfortable enough to tell someone to shut up. It doesn't have to go further than that, and people learn from their mistakes instead of being squashed for them.

We have also created a force that doesn't value service.

Disagree 100%. I believe in "service, not servitude" and many in our leadership echelon think we need to exhibit servitude. I won't do it and applaud others who won't as well. Don't piss on my head and tell me that it's raining or that I should like it.

[HU&W]

Why do you think that morale is not high?

Because our military culture has been systematically dismantled and replaced with something that just feels fake and very generic. Because appearances are valued over outcomes. Because of the felt instability from years of broken promises, and watching those who we should have felt sorry for leave and flourish. Because of arbitrary leadership decisions that degrade the quality of life for our families. Because of a whole host of other factors we work through every day that are unique to our organizational culture.

Does that mean there aren't good things? Obviously not. But there's certainly a lot we could do better.

[BitteEinBit]

Materials for sale in the BX and programs on AFN are not the same as sexist language and traditions AT WORK. I don't care if you are offended by songs on the radio, movies on TV or magazines in a store. Get over it. I do care about sexual harassment in the workplace. Not because there is a direct link to sexual assault, there isn't. I care because you shouldn't act like a sexist ass at work. And for ######'s sake, nobody is saying every fighter pilot or every maintainer does it. What I am saying, CSAF is saying and Lt Gen Rand is saying, is that it happens too much at work and we need to knock it off.

.

This actually makes me happy knowing that we will not be spending $50,000+ on flat screen TVs this year, like we have for the past 10 years, that play those very same movies, TV programs, radios AT WORK. I'm a little upset, however, to hear senior leadership doesn't care if I get offended by these things...by the way, they play them at work, dental clinic, flight doc...etc. I'm sure morale would improve if we prohibited those kinds of things at work though. I don't want to hear ANYONE else's music unless it is the Air Force Song or something else patriotic! Lady GaGa offends me.

We have also created a force that doesn't value service. Defending this nation while serving in the profession of arms, particularly during a time of war, should motivate us. Not sure why so many have lost faith. Our nation needs airpower and skilled pilots and officers to make sure our military uses airpower properly. If you want to quit because of sock police or on-line master's classes or because it isn't fun anymore, I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Part of the answer is in your quoted paragraph below...we keep telling the "shoes" to stop sweating the little shit (socks) all the time...but for some reason that "little shit" becomes THE focus.

Have some courage to change what you can change. Don't sweat the little shit. Tell the person who asks to see your socks to piss off. Identify and change policies that don't make sense. Let your boss know what you are doing. Act like an officer and do the right thing. Take care of your Airmen and your subordinates. Serve because there probably isn't anyone better at this job than you and we will all suffer if you quit.

You are spot on when you say "WE" have created a force that doesn't value service. When you put less emphasis and reward on the actual SERVICE itself (ie the MISSION, enhancing the ORGANIZATION) and reward self-serving actions such as "What can I do to make ME successful and to make ME stand out," you build a force who doesn't value service. I don't expect senior leaders to see it directly...everything looks good on paper by the time it gets to your level, but at the grassroots (WG and below) level, it is very apparent to those who choose not to ignore it. Hopefully this isn't a surprise to anyone...

Plus: Shack to what HU&W said above!

Good news is, yes, we are still the best at what we do....

Edited October 1, 2013 by BitteEinBit

[pawnman]

Ops tempo, AAD for Capts, rack and stacks, bad commanders, Christmas parties, overemphasis on "discipline" and obedience to all written guidance, fewer good deal TDYs, impending budget cuts, emphasis on sexual harassment, RPAs, bad economy. Probably more.

We have also created a force that doesn't value service. Defending this nation while serving in the profession of arms, particularly during a time of war, should motivate us. Not sure why so many have lost faith. Our nation needs airpower and skilled pilots and officers to make sure our military uses airpower properly. If you want to quit because of sock police or on-line master's classes or because it isn't fun anymore, I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Have some courage to change what you can change. Don't sweat the little shit. Tell the person who asks to see your socks to piss off. Identify and change policies that don't make sense. Let your boss know what you are doing. Act like an officer and do the right thing. Take care of your Airmen and your subordinates. Serve because there probably isn't anyone better at this job than you and we will all suffer if you quit.

We've lost faith because our leadership has focused on stupid things while we're trying to fight this war. Leaving aside traditions and the battle over the cultural shift in the OG, how about:

Sock checks? You say to tell them to piss off...sure, I'm going to tell my 1-star WG/CC to piss off. That will improve morale around the base, especially my little corner of it.

Morale patches on Friday? I'm not talking about the borderline offensive ones, I'm just talking about the heritage patches (what the squadron wore into combat in WWII), or hours patches, or even just a crew patch cooked up over in the Deid.

Friday shirts? Gone. Then we went to the tan shirts as well.

Here's one for you: gym bags. I was called out on my black gym bag, with a yellow Nike swoosh, because "the reg says they're supposed to be a solid color". Do you think that motivates me to work out at the base gym? Nope, it motivates me to get my ass out of dodge even earlier so I can work out somewhere people don't care about my gym bag.

[brabus]

The truth is that far too many dudes have zero SA. Far too many are obnoxious and can't shut their cake holes no matter what the audience. We all know it and there far more than just the "2%" wingmen. It might not be many or most, but its not exactly rare. Given the temperature of the water right now, this is why the hammer is getting dropped. No, it doesn't contribute to sexual assault. But you can see why your poor 1CO or intel troop wouldn't want to listen to that shit all day. Should not be difficult to understand.

You're right, 2% is a low number, but like you said, the majority get it. There's no misunderstanding here, I totally agree the 1CO, intel troop, etc. shouldn't have to listen to it. I'm also saying at least for the most part that I've seen, they don't. We're actually pretty good at keeping stuff "down" around said individuals.

My comments towards 69 just being a number, etc. is geared towards the fact that I think focusing on shit like that is exact proof leadership is looking the wrong direction. Focus on the shit that can actually make the AF a better place, not on a small group of officers who actually do just fine (save the occasional asshole) policing ourselves and maintaining a quality work environment for all.

[Vertigo]

By the way, I can't put pictures of this year's summer family vacation on my desk because someone is offended at my wife's bikini.

So she's wearing a bikini...that is normal to me.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned already... but I believe you are now required to post said picture of wife in bikini.

[HercDude]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned already... but I believe you are now required to post said picture of wife in bikini.

[Gravedigger]

WTF? That's what you've gathered from his posts. You're proving his points. While others have made some decent arguments about the issues at hand, that diatribe proves nothing except your opinion of yourself is not congruent with reality.

I think liquid wants people to realize that it's possible to be both the ultimate badass, and consummate professional. The "witch hunt" has probably gone too far in many cases, but that's not to say the entire message is crap.

[Champ Kind]

Liquid, personal insults aside, I think we are getting to the core of the problem. You and your peers are simply out of touch with reality.

I am seeing the AF very much turn into just a "job". Many of us entered the service with wide-eyed, idealistic visions of service before self. Also, don't forget that a lot of people from which you are hearing these complaints joined after 9/11/01. What they are finding, though, is that their leadership has not been able to keep its eye on the ball with regard to taking care of people and putting the mission first. I'm not talking about the "mission first" we put at the bottom of a .ppt slidedeck.

So, yes, I will continue to serve until I either can't take the madness anymore, or until the opportunity cost of separating prior to being retirement eligible is too high. But, it is increasingly becoming more like any other "job" out there, with the exception of risks/inconveniences that are synonymous with military service that are not a factor in the civilian work force.

[KState_Poke22]

Liquid, personal insults aside, I think we are getting to the core of the problem. You and your peers are simply out of touch with reality.

I am seeing the AF very much turn into just a "job". Many of us entered the service with wide-eyed, idealistic visions of service before self. Also, don't forget that a lot of people from which you are hearing these complaints joined after 9/11/01. What they are finding, though, is that their leadership has not been able to keep its eye on the ball with regard to taking care of people and putting the mission first. I'm not talking about the "mission first" we put at the bottom of a .ppt slidedeck.

So, yes, I will continue to serve until I either can't take the madness anymore, or until the opportunity cost of separating prior to being retirement eligible is too high. But, it is increasingly becoming more like any other "job" out there, with the exception of risks/inconveniences that are synonymous with military service that are not a factor in the civilian work force.

That checks, I was amazed at the behavior of many of the chiefs on my last deployment (except our squadron chief, who would tell other chiefs to shove it if they were messing with our guys). Luckily we had some awesome leadership that shielded us from most of the bullshit. The OG straight up told us on his commander's welcome brief...

"I don't give a shit if you're wearing your reflective belt and I don't give a shit about your mustache, I'm not going to be walking around measuring it, I just expect you to work your ass off and get the mission done because a lot of people outside the wire depend on you"

Probably the wisest thing I've ever heard from an O-6 or above.

[BitteEinBit]

The OG straight up told us on his commander's welcome brief...

"I don't give a shit if you're wearing your reflective belt and I don't give a shit about your mustache, I'm not going to be walking around measuring it, I just expect you to work your ass off and get the mission done because a lot of people outside the wire depend on you"

I've seen so much of the opposite, I actually don't believe this happened....

[di1630]

WTF? That's what you've gathered from his posts. You're proving his points. While others have made some decent arguments about the issues at hand, that diatribe proves nothing except your opinion of yourself is not congruent with reality. I think liquid wants people to realize that it's possible to be both the ultimate badass, and consummate professional. The "witch hunt" has probably gone too far in many cases, but that's not to say the entire message is crap.

Just having some fun, with that being said I'll cave to your sensitivities as is expected in the USAF and delete it. Sorry I offended you

[Champ Kind]

That's the thing. There are actual inspirational LEADERS out there, but they are by exception. I'm working for one now, but it is difficult for one person to keep you focused on what matters and disregard the BS out there, especially knowing that he will move on in about two years and statistically, you will get a shoe clerk in a flightsuit as a replacement.

I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

[Gravedigger]

Just having some fun, with that being said I'll cave to your sensitivities as is expected in the USAF and delete it. Sorry I offended you

You're missing the point. What needs to happen is for good dudes all over the Air Force to be positive influences on their peers. We don't need polarized hyper-sensitive martyrdom on either side of the issue. The vast majority of the Air Force has a pretty damn clear understanding of how to have morale in the squadron without crossing the line into harassment. The problem is the vocal minority that causes the pendulum to swing too far because it seems the message isn't being understood. It's the same shit in Congress. Instead of people just being fucking reasonable in the first place, people have to take things to the extreme.

As for being offended, it takes a lot more dead babies than that to offend me.

[di1630]

You're missing the point. What needs to happen is for good dudes all over the Air Force to be positive influences on their peers. We don't need polarized hyper-sensitive martyrdom on either side of the issue. The vast majority of the Air Force has a pretty damn clear understanding of how to have morale in the squadron without crossing the line into harassment. The problem is the vocal minority that causes the pendulum to swing too far because it seems the message isn't being understood. It's the same shit in Congress. Instead of people just being ######ing reasonable in the first place, people have to take things to the extreme.

As for being offended, it takes a lot more dead babies than that to offend me.

Dude, if I can't have some fun and attack a dude I disagree with on BON, things have gotten gay. I mean really, a guy shows up spouting USAF one liners straight from PME books and says the USAF will be a better place without fighter pilot culture. Give me a break.

I grew up around retired pilots who boozed, sang and partook in debauchery. These guys were in their 60's, some had been POWs, fought in multiple wars, most had been flag officers. They inspired me to work hard so I too could some day fly planes and party like they did. Now the pansies with a ultra-PC corporate mentality are in charge....and they wonder why morale is low. It is because leadership like liquid is so out of touch with what the average pilot wants/needs to be happy in their job. They think just because filling squares and climbing the ladder is good for them, that shoudl motivate everyone else.

I just want to fly, be respected, treated like a professional and allowed the same heritage that was afforded in the past.