What's wrong with the Air Force?

[B.M.]

Do you think he'd be sitting in A3V for the past three years if he wasn't doing a good job?

Until pretty recently, the A3V KC-10 boom was a tremendous douchebag and was well known inside and outside our community for being a douche. This guy had been an evaluator for a long time, but he had a chip on his shoulder and no one checked him on it. Not saying your bud is the same type, but when "iPad charged to a certain percentage, rings, rags, scarves" become Q3 fodder it's natural to think in that direction.

Q3s are for breaking bones, bending metal, and busting warnings and cautions, not for piddling stuff like that. Debrief item at best. If this guy had any sort of big picture we wouldn't be here talking about him.

Besides, Q3s take up a shitload of time, who wants to go through that?

[Azimuth]

If this guy had any sort of big picture we wouldn't be here talking about him.

We're talking about a guy based on a story that some guy here heard from his buddy. I'd say 10% true at best.

[Grabby]

We're talking about a guy based on a story that some guy here heard from his buddy. I'd say 10% true at best.

Say what you will, but the fact that a specific E is being talked about on this forum says enough about him and his actions.

[TreeA10]

Yep, bullshit Q-3s. Another reason this job's in the toilet. Do the fighter guys mutilate their their young's FEF like this too, or is this a heavy thing?

No. In my years as an evaluator I've had guys commit some interesting errors like report initial at 500 feet, forget to reset an altimeter (WTF is an A-10 guy doing above FL180??), get lost and attempt to fly over KRDU, take me IFR in a pop, and a plethora of other weird stuff. Those all resulted in downgrades and were debriefed appropriately. The only Q-3 was a great dude on a Single engine approach that over finessed the approach and forgot the gear. Hard to overlook that one as a "momentary deviation but correcting" when I had to make a call to remind him on a 2 mile final.

[Rusty Pipes]

1) 10 yrs ago I know the E-9 Chief Boom at Kadena was the senior Active Duty Boom in PACAF. Although he was stationed there vs Hickam they technically gave him the PACAF A3V Boom hat to wear... that may have changed since then, but on the books there was a MAJCOM A3V -135 Boom

2) AMC eating their own? Ummm yeah... I know back when they had lots of them still flying the #1 Q-3 item for Tanker Navs was for the pre-flight Oxygen check (not kidding in the slightest) and have seen pilots Q-3'd for reading something other than flight pubs crossing the pond.

3) Chiefing… Let’s not confuse someone reiterating the policy of the boss with gleefully usurping rank because they think a boss' policy or AFI gives them authority to do so. Maybe I'm a horrible officer/instructor/evaluator, but there have been lots of times where I was not the A Code (sometimes even just a pax with a crew from my base) and told the AC or one of the crew something along the lines of, "Hey, I agree that it seems stupid, but the OG/CC doesn't want us wearing ball caps (or insert stupid thing here) on the jet... if he sees you doing it you'll probably get hammered." I didn’t tell them they needed to comply; I just reminded them of the policy/view of the boss. Is it technically wrong to actually not enforce/direct it; yes... Do I care; no.

BTW... I probably could have justifiably given out lots of Q-3's for checkride buffoonery over the years, but I have not given any (admittedly I’ve never had a cut and dry safety type issue though)... I have had plenty of very intense debriefs where they probably assumed they were getting hooked and learned just as much if not more as a result. My pointy nosed bros have said that is more in line with how they do it in the CAF which I think is more effective… I wish more AMC evaluators had that view.

[Cap-10]

Yep, bullshit Q-3s. Another reason this job's in the toilet. Do the fighter guys mutilate their their young's FEF like this too, or is this a heavy thing?

No...Q-1 pretty standard...maybe a ding, especially FTU check rides...I've seen only one or two Q-2.

The one Q-3 was a SQ/CC directed when they departed the jet and negative over-G'd in the recovery....they were burning down gas to do an I-check.

Cap-10

[WABoom]

I have seen bullshit Q-3s from bullshit evaluators but most of the time the Vol 2 sort of let them do it. I wish these people were not evaluators in the first place but that's another thread in itself. I have been fortunate enough to never hand out a Q-3. Thankfully I have never had my hands tied, and I was able to use some discretion. I would like to think that I am as big picture as it comes. I think after being in for a few years I know people and I can tell that If I de-brief the hell out of something, that they will never do it again. I am not a hypocrite, I don't believe I am perfect, and I know mistakes are human. I can forgive mistakes, I can't forgive blatant disregard of regulations and TOs (not battery power or hats). These type of folks are what's wrong with the AF. I just hope my buddy isn't one of them and I believe that's not how it went down. But I will admit, I wasn't there.

[SocialD]

Yep, bullshit Q-3s. Another reason this job's in the toilet. Do the fighter guys mutilate their their young's FEF like this too, or is this a heavy thing?

I don't even know anyone that has had a Q-2, the worst I've heard of is a Q-1 1 hit. People fuck up, we debrief it and move on...it's what we do every day. Aside from blatant safety violations (iPad charge/reading some bs briefing verbatim...are you fucking kidding me?), what does Q-3ing someone accomplish? Instrument checks are an annoyance that get in the way of actual training missions.

EDIT: Last sentence was cut off...the internet is hard.

Edited October 16, 2013 by SocialD

[Hueypilot]

The only Q-3 was a great dude on a Single engine approach that over finessed the approach and forgot the gear. Hard to overlook that one as a "momentary deviation but correcting" when I had to make a call to remind him on a 2 mile final.

If the A-10 had a FE onboard this wouldn't ever happen.

FWIW, I'm a MAF evaluator and I despise EPs that Q-3 dudes for idiotic queep. If they pass the "would I let him fly my family around" test, they'll typically pass, along with any Q- debrief items.

[matmacwc]

Is it a holdover from, "you will never go airlines, boots on the ramp for you." Kind of thing?

[WABoom]

He might be mad at me, but I'm posting this anyway. Two sides to every story and here is the other side:

"It was me, but the story has been altered drastically. There was an AD and ANG boom. As for Fraud Waste and Abuse, I spent 12 hours and 20 minutes on island and was billeted on base. This was in conjunction with another mission I had accomplished on a different jet. As for Q3s, nobody got a Q3, especially for not having your EFB charged. I beat them with a debrief because of GK, checklist discipline, and pax brief requirements. I also stroked them for excellent CRM and configuration. I believe the other part according to the post was me threatening the pilots with a Q3. Part of my brief as an evaluator is safety of flight items maybe sent for a commander directed downgrade option. For example, I flew with a different crew in which the pilot did not remove his ring. I left it until prior to t/o. I mentioned something and knew that was sufficient. I have given 3 Q3s since I've been up here, and they were earned. Damaging equipment, GOV boom who could not answer amplified questions and had very limited GK."

I hope my buddy was ok with me posting this, just felt like I had to share. Thanks

[Duck]

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle. I do find it funny that he didn't know his own regs that stated he couldn't give the crew a checkride. Q-3 to him for SA. Lol

[VL-16]

Honest question because I don't know the answer - why the fuck do people in the AMC world care if a pilot flies with a wedding ring?

[Duck]

Talked to my buddy who was one of the ACs, and got some clarification on the story which only makes it funnier.

SE Boom commented to them he flew commercial out there upon finishing some AF stuff down in Florida specifically to give them a check because they were a TFI crew on an AMC mission and that was the one way he could get around the two weeks notice to their OG/CC, Guard O-6. Which proved to be illegal according to the Reg.

He mentioned the booms did get debriefed on cargo loading procedures one on one with the evaluator, but afterwards he debriefed the A coded AC on what their Q-3 items were so he could pass to the OG. SE booms plan was to Q-3 the AD boom for insufficient EFB charge and the ANG boom for not adequately addressing Infants during the Passenger Briefing.

The AC says he kept the notepad paper where he wrote down what the dude said because no one in their right mind would believe him back home.

The OG/CC and Ch of OGV back home were pissed about the whole situation and called the AMC Ch of SE.

Side note: I need to get a copy of that paper so I can add it to my "Boss, I quit..." Book that I plan on publishing when I get out...

[Danger41]

MAF vs CAF evaluator mindset, IMHO:

In my current community, we are an island of misfit toys from all the different communities. It seems that in AMC (and former AMC dudes), the pinnacle is to be a higher up in Stan/Eval. In the CAF, the pinnacle is to be a Patch. I think that's why there's such a difference. In AMC, you have to flex nuts in order to show you can be a badass evaluator that will hook people without any qualms. CAF bros treat checkrides as an annoyance and something that we have to do between training for the actual mission. Hence, very few Q-3's that will slow down the training with the requisite requals and all that cheese.

One man's opinion.

[matmacwc]

He might be mad at me, but I'm posting this anyway. Two sides to every story and here is the other side:

"It was me, but the story has been altered drastically. There was an AD and ANG boom. As for Fraud Waste and Abuse, I spent 12 hours and 20 minutes on island and was billeted on base. This was in conjunction with another mission I had accomplished on a different jet. As for Q3s, nobody got a Q3, especially for not having your EFB charged. I beat them with a debrief because of GK, checklist discipline, and pax brief requirements. I also stroked them for excellent CRM and configuration. I believe the other part according to the post was me threatening the pilots with a Q3. Part of my brief as an evaluator is safety of flight items maybe sent for a commander directed downgrade option. For example, I flew with a different crew in which the pilot did not remove his ring. I left it until prior to t/o. I mentioned something and knew that was sufficient. I have given 3 Q3s since I've been up here, and they were earned. Damaging equipment, GOV boom who could not answer amplified questions and had very limited GK."

I hope my buddy was ok with me posting this, just felt like I had to share. Thanks

Good on you for raising your hand, the AF is short of people like that. I don't fly AMC, so I don't get most of it. I'm sure most of the story is somewhere in the middle or square how you reported.

PS. I have wore my wedding band to fly......my bad.

[WABoom]

I like the CAF mentality.

We have 35 pages of what is wrong with the AF, would love to say i'm shocked but it should honestly be about 100 pages.

To steer this back on course I think once the AF stops promoting "perfect people" on paper, the ship will start to right itself. These squeeky clean idiots I see running around have their head so far up the ass of the person that can help them get promoted they forget the reason why they are in key leadership positions. To lead! I am so sick and tired of people looking to get promoted instead of making the mission the priority. I have posted more tonight than any other time, the reason? I read this forum and realize that many of YOU are the people I want to see leadership from. I am sure some of you are in key positions and have some influence. We bitch and moan and for the most part make great points and yet nothing happens. To make a quality E you need a strong O. I see a lack of strong officers at the sq and wg level. Sure there are some good guys, but they are too few and far between and don't go as far as they should. I need you guys to step up, stop jockeying for the next rank and lead. Please. We cannot have a great CSAF if everyone between he and the airman basic is unwilling to lead without fear of consequence. Take risks, put your balls on the line, take a stand, and for goodness sake, be a leader. I wish I had the ear of the CSAF. Some may cringe with what I have to say, but damn it I speak my mind, it's always heartfelt, and it's what needs to be said. So come on guys, I haven't seen in the last 15 years enough officers I would follow into fire if they asked. But trust me, we WANT to follow that guy and the AF needs people of character now more than ever. Again, sorry for the rant and I was obviously not an english major so I apologize.

Edited October 16, 2013 by WABoom

[Duck]

Honest question because I don't know the answer - why the fuck do people in the AMC world care if a pilot flies with a wedding ring?

Honest answer... Our best and brightest in AMC are now working for Southwest, FedEx and hell probably McDonalds right now. Think about that next time you meet a Two-Below the zone O-5, AMC guy who is their poster boy.. The level of bullshit that I saw during my prison term with AMC was enough to make the decision for me.

Even though it's the non-flyers who gleefully enforce those stupid rules, it's that 2 BTZ Superstar Pilot that comes up with the bullshit in the first place.

[FUSEPLUG]

The real sickness in AMC as of late has been the Commander-directed Q-3's, not what's happening on evaluations. I know of a few guys who were strung up by their fingernails for shit that should have been a simple tongue-lashing. Most involved poor pre-flight walk-arounds, none bent metal. Guys are being crucified on Form 8's for items such as safety and judgement for a simple missed checklist step. There's even an AC who was handed (or threatened with) a Q-3 after one of his crew-members drank too much and acted-a-fool while in crew-rest.

All of this paperwork was driven by someone in the chain of command of these individuals who could have easily put the top-down madness to the a stop.

[Wing Sweep]

It seems that in AMC (and former AMC dudes), the pinnacle is to be a higher up in Stan/Eval. In the CAF, the pinnacle is to be a Patch. I think that's why there's such a difference. In AMC, you have to flex nuts in order to show you can be a badass evaluator that will hook people without any qualms. CAF bros treat checkrides as an annoyance and something that we have to do between training for the actual mission. Hence, very few Q-3's that will slow down the training with the requisite requals and all that cheese.

One man's opinion.

Shack!

The ring story should have been a two sentence conversation that never made it to BODN.

"Hey dude, you still have your ring on. Crap, my bad...(as the dude removed his ring)."

Conversation over.

Edited October 16, 2013 by g2s

[jango220]

The past few pages have become "What's Wrong with AMC," which could literally fill a book. AMC has developed some weird corporate mentality that rewards the extremely few shiny pennies and takes it out on the masses. Probably one of the biggest issues with checkrides/evaluators is that AMC for the most part views the upgrade to EP as something that enhances your career vs a position given to your experienced instructors. As a result, many evaluators view the sortie thru a soda straw and seemingly take pride in producing bloody form 8s.

Not trying to throw spears, but this phenomenon appeared to begin in the airlift world and due to the "excellent" Phoenix crossflow program, has manifested itself in the tanker world.

And as an aside, the evaluator boom referenced earlier gave a n/n to a boom on one of my flights last year. From my point of view, I have nothing bad to say about him at all, and thought he was a great crew member.

[arg]

The past few pages have become "What's Wrong with AMC," which could literally fill a book. AMC has developed some weird corporate mentality that rewards the extremely few shiny pennies and takes it out on the masses. Probably one of the biggest issues with checkrides/evaluators is that AMC for the most part views the upgrade to EP as something that enhances your career vs a position given to your experienced instructors. As a result, many evaluators view the sortie thru a soda straw and seemingly take pride in producing bloody form 8s.

Not trying to throw spears, but this phenomenon appeared to begin in the airlift world and due to the "excellent" Phoenix crossflow program, has manifested itself in the tanker world and AFSOC .

And as an aside, the evaluator boom referenced earlier gave a n/n to a boom on one of my flights last year. From my point of view, I have nothing bad to say about him at all, and thought he was a great crew member.

One more question. Who the hell is wearing a wedding ring while TDY? I'm kidding

[arg]

I forgot what thread I was in. Anyway I know of two instances where a 16th SOS Evaluator Gunner took down co-pilots. The way it worked then was the gunner filled out the Fm8 and the CC either concurred or non concurred. Both cases he concurred. The infraction? Walking between #3 engine and the fuselage while the engine was running. Yes, it happened twice, several years apart.

[ViperStud]

I don't even know anyone that has had a Q-2, the worst I've heard of is a Q-1 1 hit. People ###### up, we debrief it and move on...it's what we do every day. Aside from blatant safety violations (iPad charge/reading some bs briefing verbatim...are you ######ing kidding me?), what does Q-3ing someone accomplish? Instrument checks are an annoyance that get in the way of actual training missions.

EDIT: Last sentence was cut off...the internet is hard.

Translation - you don't know anyone that openly admits to having a Q3. There is a lot more blood out there than you realize, even in ACC. For a lot of dudes it's either a wake-up call or just a shitty sortie. They recover from it and move on with life, often it gets buried and later commanders don't even know.

I've seen several, but never for something so BS as a wedding ring, ipad charge or improperly verbalized checklist item that was performed correctly. If I tried to Q3 a dude for said offense, my CC would stare at me like I had a pair of tits hanging from my cranium. Maybe that's the real difference between communities. I've had only one boss that would be such a cork soaker. Don't worry though, he's a full bird now riding his wife's coattails on the fast track.

Edit: such, not suck. Though he does suck

Edited October 16, 2013 by ViperStud

[Majestik Møøse]

On the KC-10 side, all of the good dudes I looked up to when I first showed up have jumped ship. All of them. Reserves, airlines, other jets, or just plain quit. The active-duty leadership in 6-9 years will be made up of the uncool kids who decided to hang around, bolstered by a few senior captains who know what they're doing. Not a good outlook, IMHO.