What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Bender]

dependapotamus

That shit is funny right there. +1 good sir.

As for the rest of this stuff...big fat -1.

Bendy

[M2]

Fix her behavior by giving her the privilege to raise the flag on base for a few months or allowing her to solemnly present a flag to the loved one of a veteran at a military funeral. If she can present that flag to a crying widow and not be willing to take the 30 seconds to salute the flag each day, she is a lost cause.

This has to be the first thing you've ever posted on this forum that I can actually agree with!

The rest of your dribble is pure bullshit. Seriously, I hope you're smarter than that!

[one1]

Even suggesting that her actions are condonable seems to imply you are just as much a part of the problem as she is. If you're an officer in the US military, you are expected to uphold the standards of conduct for all junior to you in rank. Considering she is in violation of Army Regulation 600-25, some punishment should be expected and deserved.

I don't disagree with you at all. I just think that she was breaking the rules due to being lazy and ignorant. There is a difference between being lazy and ignorant and actively going out of your way to disrespect our country. Being lazy and ignorant are easily correctable when you are dealing with a young airman or private. Her actions need to be corrected with a punishment that will solve her deficiency and make her a better soldier.

I am not making excuses for her. There are many young military members that enlist with a lack of discipline and a lack of pride that doesn't get fixed by the time they finish basic training. It is the job of the front line supervisor to develop this soldier into someone that doesn't do something so stupid. It is not always possible. I don't think she would take a picture and post this on Instagram without being genuinely ignorant of the implications. Correct the soldier's actions and move on. If she does something similar again, escalate the corrective action.

ETA: I wasn't talking about people waiting by the door for the music to be over. I was talking about people waiting at the door for the music to start and then end. I have seen this many times and people do it just to avoid having to salute during the National Anthem. I see CGOs and NCOs do this regularly.

Edited February 27, 2014 by one1

[zmoney]

After reading in the bonus thread that the bonus might not be offered to mobility pilots this year, I decided to create what I call: "The timeline of ridiculousness." Please feel free to add, I've left out quite a bit.

- December '13: Force Management '14 programs announced. CSAF tells us we need volunteers... we won't force folks out if we get enough vols.

- 23 Dec: VSP matrix released... pilots listed as eligible

- Early Jan: RIF matrix released. Gives concrete numbers showing pilots eligible.

- Late night 5 Feb: 1-3 hours before midnight CST, AFPC states that UPT ADSCs will NOT be waived, ref PSDM 13-65.

- Next 2-3 weeks: Conflicting info presented. AFPC says RIF eligibiles will get ADSC waivers IAW PSDM 13-130, AFPC also says RIF eligibiles won't get waivers IAW PSDM 13-65. Still no one truly knows what's going to happen.

- Late Feb: Officer RIF / FSB pushed back & PSDM 13-130 rescinded. Nobody knows why. The AF released a weird statement basically saying it wasn't ready.

- Early March: Reports coming in that mobility pilots will not be offered the bonus.

Some questions:

Why didn't the A1 think to request UPT ADSC waiver authority from the SecAF before the officer VSP window opened? Why didn't the phone operators at AFPC know what was going on wrt these waivers. Why did the info only come out at the last minute?

I apologize for the vent, but this is getting to be too much. I've seen too many folks get jerked around with this personnel crap. We've all given lots of time and energy to this organization. Everyone, including those who plan on staying, should demand better from the AF.

Edited March 4, 2014 by zmoney

[pawnman]

After reading in the bonus thread that the bonus might not be offered to mobility pilots this year, I decided to create what I call: "The timeline of ridiculousness." Please feel free to add, I've left out quite a bit.

- December '13: Force Management '14 programs announced. CSAF tells us we need volunteers... we won't force folks out if we get enough vols.

- 23 Dec: VSP matrix released... pilots listed as eligible

- Early Jan: RIF matrix released. Gives concrete numbers showing pilots eligible.

- Late night 5 Feb: 1-3 hours before midnight CST, AFPC states that UPT ADSCs will NOT be waived, ref PSDM 13-65.

- Next 2-3 weeks: Conflicting info presented. AFPC says RIF eligibiles will get ADSC waivers IAW PSDM 13-130, AFPC also says RIF eligibiles won't get waivers IAW PSDM 13-65. Still no one truly knows what's going to happen.

- Late Feb: Officer RIF / FSB pushed back & PSDM 13-130 rescinded. Nobody knows why. The AF released a weird statement basically saying it wasn't ready.

- Early March: Reports coming in that mobility pilots will not be offered the bonus.

Some questions:

Why didn't the A1 think to request UPT ADSC waiver authority from the SecAF before the officer VSP window opened? Why didn't the phone operators at AFPC know what was going on wrt these waivers. Why did the info only come out at the last minute?

I apologize for the vent, but this is getting to be too much. I've seen too many folks get jerked around with this personnel crap. We've all given lots of time and energy to this organization. Everyone, including those who plan on staying, should demand better from the AF.

Here's another question...we have this intense shortage of fighter pilots, and this overage of mobility pilots...maybe we could, I don't know, train some mobility pilots to fly fighters?

Edited March 4, 2014 by pawnman

[brabus]

Anyone know what kind of numbers happened back in the mid-late 90s when the cross-flow thing happened? I wonder if a program like that would actually be anywhere near enough to "fix the glitch" in earnest. It's clearly not an easy "take 1100 MAF guys and make 1100 CAF guys." I think looking at the 38 track guys who are currently in the MAF would be a sensible starting point, but that certainly won't get us out of this mess.

[Hacker]

Here's another question...we have this intense shortage of fighter pilots, and this overage of mobility pilots...maybe we could, I don't know, train some mobility pilots to fly fighters?

If you go back and read about it, you'll find that there is not a lot of enthusiasm surrounding the previous crossflow program, mostly because of the results compared to the costs the last time it was done. I don't have all the numbers in front of me, but I was going through IFF/FTU at the time that previous wave of crossflows was going through the pipeline ('99 timeframe) and on into their first tours in ops squadrons.

The fact is, many crossflow pilots didn't end up performing as well as hoped at all stages of follow-on training (IFF. FTU, squadron MQT, etc). Some of them did great, of course (I know a couple that went on to perform well above average in the F-15E community), but statistically they did "worse" (in terms of pipeline training washouts and issues in operational units).

Most of the crossflow pilots that were my classmates and squadronmates were superb officers with fantastic officer performance records (and extremely good dudes to boot), but that didn't always continue into performance in the cockpit. It wasn't a "talent" issue with the crossflow pilots so much as it was an "experience" issue; one has to acknowledge, weather it is politically correct to or not, that there are significant cultural differences between the fighter community and other flying communities (although the bomber community is a somewhat close relative) that translate to differences in skills/airmanship in the pilots that come from those communities. What makes an aviator great in the MAF isn't the same thing that makes an aviator great in the CAF.

On the most basic level, the crossflow pilots, for the most part, were not used to being single-seat decisionmakers at much higher speeds, and much higher Gs, while hand-flying significantly more aggressive/dynamic maneuvers. Many times the core airmanship just wasn't operating well at 400 knots and pilots were just behind the jet (sound judgment, just not fast enough); sometimes a thousand hours on autopilot in the flight levels did not translate to having hands good enough for even basic admin formation work, much less more complex BFM or surface attack. This isn't unique to the crossflow folks, though; this is the same thing seen many times with ANG/Reserve fighter units that hire non-fighter guys and send them through IFF and fighter FTUs. There was a big wave of those guys about 8 or 9 years ago (mostly A-10 units at the time, but I don't remember why), and they had an unusually high washout rate, too, with some guys who did superb being the exception rather than the rule.

None the less, the end result was that there was higher attrition of the crossflow guys compared to straight pipeline students, and the fighter brass largely decided it wasn't that much of a benefit. Again, not that the crossflow pilots were idiots or anything (in fact, quite the opposite -- most of them had impressive OPRs/jobs/awards, seemed to have been superb pilots in their previous lives, and were really great dudes), but their previous flying time had given them habits and airmanship that did not dovetail into success in fighters.

All that being said, when Lorenz made the T-38 track at UPT "universally assignable" several years ago, one of the rationalizations that I heard discussed numerous times amongst AETC staff dudes was the future crossflow potential. Specifically, I heard a lot of folks talking about how F-35 was going to ramp up at some point in the mid-future, and the AF needed a T-38 trained pool of pilots who could quickly move over to train for that (remember, this is the same time period when the numbers of students going to fighters had been choked off to a mere trickle).

Anyone know what kind of numbers happened back in the mid-late 90s when the cross-flow thing happened? I wonder if a program like that would actually be anywhere near enough to "fix the glitch" in earnest. It's clearly not an easy "take 1100 MAF guys and make 1100 CAF guys." I think looking at the 38 track guys who are currently in the MAF would be a sensible starting point, but that certainly won't get us out of this mess.

Remember that even in the 98/99 crossflow, only T-38 trained pilots were eligible. I don't think T-38 trained MAF pilots would be a "starting point"; I think they would be the only ones eligible.

[Majestik Møøse]

OK, how about this: let me try my hand at being a Strike Eagle pilot, and if I get washed out the Air Force can boot me to the curb!

[pbar]

OK, how about this: let me try my hand at being a Strike Eagle pilot, and if I get washed out the Air Force can boot me to the curb!

Sounds like a great deal for the Taxpayers...

[Majestik Møøse]

Sounds like a great deal for the Taxpayers...

Uh dude that's like #23 on our priorities list.

[matmacwc]

Why the E ?

[WAG]

What makes an aviator great in the MAF isn't the same thing that makes an aviator great in the CAF.

I agree, but that goes both ways.

[C-21.Pilot]

I agree, but that goes both ways.

That's not what he's getting at, per se. He eluded to airmanship and situational awareness, both of which are attributes in the CAF and MAF world - but needed more quickly in the more demanding CAF world.

The time and effort it would take to go from MAF to CAF isn't worth the risk of failure. Likewise, take a CAF guy and in minimal time in any MAF airframe you can get him spun up with very little risk of failure.

You cannot take a C-17 EP and train him in 1 year how to effectively employ a Mudhen. Likewise, I could take Hacker and he could *easily* be an IP in the C-17 within a year.

Edited March 5, 2014 by C-21.Pilot

[nsplayr]

Why the E ?

Doesn't care for dick maybe?

[HossHarris]

(Colbert eating popcorn)

[Toro]

You cannot take a C-17 EP and train him in 1 year how to effectively employ a Mudhen. Likewise, I could take Hacker and he could *easily* be an IP in the C-17 within a year.

Before this gets into a fatty vs fighter pissing contest, I will side with Hacker and C-21 pilot with a first hand example I saw. Fast burner in the KC-135 community got chosen for cross-flow circa 1999 and went to the Strike Eagle. He was considered one of the top tanker guys - the type of dude who would have gone to a tanker weapons school if they had it at the time. He was pretty much the poster boy for officership, but he couldn't fly his way out of a paper back in the Strike Eagle. I was his wingman on several horribly embarrassing deployed and exercise sorties. Nice enough guy, but he just could not keep up with the jet, and even with strong WSOs in his back seat, his black hole of SA in the much faster paced multi-role environment was completely detrimental to those around him.

[brabus]

Remember that even in the 98/99 crossflow, only T-38 trained pilots were eligible. I don't think T-38 trained MAF pilots would be a "starting point"; I think they would be the only ones eligible.

Makes sense. I think we should do this for that group of dudes; its a win-win as some MAF communities get their manning down to where it should be and the pressure on CAF manning can be reduced to some extent. Not to mention I'm sure there are a lot of dudes out there who we're that #2 or 3 dude in their class with a one fighter drop and would have done great at IFF and beyond if they had better luck/timing on their side. This especially applies to guys who have only been in the MAF for one assignment, as them going to IFF, etc. would be akin to a FAIP as far as timeline goes (and maybe even better considering their operational experience).

[MooseAg03]

He was considered one of the top tanker guys

That was his first problem...

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[Azimuth]

That was his first problem...

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What makes the top -17 driver? Landing at the right airfield, with current TOLD, and the gear down?

[Bender]

“Before this gets into a fatty vs fighter pissing contest, I will” [take sides] “with a first hand example I saw”.

So you're just participating in the pissing contest before it becomes a pissing contest? One might call that starting, at least instigating, said pissing contest. But, I guess you stay cleaner when you piss first.

I know a number of young T-38 trained MC-12 pilots that would love to be able to get back onto the fighter track. Their dreams of such are, of course, crushed at every opportunity. Went as far as creating a mock AMS robot email for applications to some fictitious F-35 opportunity...quite funny really.

There isn't too much logic, I don't think, in going any further than T-38 trained individuals.

During the previous crossflow experiment, these guys went back and flew 38s, then to IFF, then to RTU, and still couldn't catch up? Sounds like more of a motivation issue than a capability issue. It didn't get harder.

Bendy

[WeatherManC130]

What makes the top -17 driver? Landing at the right airfield, with current TOLD, and the gear down?

You forgot not landing short!!!

[MooseAg03]

We only have to do that 90% of the time. Actually what's wrong with that community is they keep guys who cause ground fires and land gear up because of referral OPRs. Talk about perpetuating poor performance. I daydreamed about bending metal for about .69 seconds so they couldn't cross flow me.

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[Toro]

So you're just participating in the pissing contest before it becomes a pissing contest? One might call that starting, at least instigating, said pissing contest. But, I guess you stay cleaner when you piss first.

Please. Despite your break in attendance here, surely you've been around long enough to recognize when I valid topic will degenerate into mud slinging and name calling. My post was neither.

[Bender]

Please. Despite your break in attendance here, surely you've been around long enough to recognize when I valid topic will degenerate into mud slinging and name calling. My post was neither.

Oh, I do not disagree that the snowball was clearly in motion. I just was entertained with your "I'm going to put a stop to it", then proceeded to give it a good push faster. Despite my break in attendance here, surely you remember enough to know I couldn't give a shit either way. Measure dicks, don't measure dicks...it's of no consequence (to me or any other person on the planet), so shouldn't even take up space. If that was your actual point, I agree...well done, good point.

The humor I found in it was the reason for my post. You can deny the "mud slinging and name calling" aspect of your contribution all you'd like, since it's based on a "first hand example", but I think you're hard pressed to deny it wasn't contributory to the ensuing "pissing contest". You just have a side in it, that's cool. No one will fault you for having an opinion or sharing your experiences.

Man, I sure missed you Toro.

Bendy

[Day Man]

We only have to do that 90% of the time. Actually what's wrong with that community is they keep guys who cause ground fires and land gear up because of referral OPRs. Talk about perpetuating poor performance. I daydreamed about bending metal for about .69 seconds so they couldn't cross flow me.

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Not everyone.