What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Prosuper]

I wonder if a 4 star's who pass on will be included in this, I'll be dead so I wont give a shit but it will be a slap in the face to my family. Maybe they could get the funds to honor by dropping a few bands, TIB, and General officers quarters remodel.

 https://wjhl.com/2015/12/15/21-gun-salute-eliminated-from-air-force-funerals-due-to-lack-of-funding-personnel/?utm_content=bufferaef77&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[SuperWSO]

The AF can't afford the personnel, but I'm sure M2 would be glad to empty a magazine at a funeral. 

Its not a 21 gun, just one gun 30 times.

[ATIS]

Stay on the left/VA side of that Virgina/DC line with that 30-rounder M2...just sayin.

 

ATIS...wondering where his 30-rounders might be???

[panchbarnes]

USAF/AETC leaders missed multiple opportunities to do the right things regarding the 2011 315 TRS investigation.  The learning lessons from the "dark ages" are far more valuable than any SAPR, GreenDot, NoFear Act, Suicide Prevention training (yes it's all applicable here).  Leadership loses all credibility when they sweep these incidents under the rug.  Part of the reasons why Airmen are jumping ship and do not care about your In-Res PME, promotion, bonuses, and toxic leadership "opportunities."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/4k67em/goodfellow_finally_releases_2011_command_directed/

Excerpts:

"First off, thanks to the OP for getting this report. I kinda already knew what was in it, but I'm glad that it's seeing the light of day. I'm hoping the individual interviews are released at some point in the near future, as well.

I was part of the cadre there for most of the first year of Rolirad's tenure. Quinene showed up later as the flight commander of the officer course. I don't have much bad to say about Lt Col Rolirad; I didn't necessarily agree with some of the things she did, but I understand what she was trying to do. I never personally saw her do any of the things she was accused of.

Quinene, on the other hand, is a sexual predator of the first order. I've heard variations on the same stories: how if female 14N students wanted a good assignment, they had to sleep with him; how he'd go in and "hook" a female student briefing because she wouldn't sleep with him; how he reinstated a female student back into a class after she had washed out because she was sleeping with him; how he was sleeping with an enlisted instructor; so on and so forth. Now, I admit, I have no first-hand knowledge of this. But with this much smoke, there had to be a fire. And I'm not sure he only did this at Goodfellow. I was talking to an intel officer who knew him in Korea. This person said Quinene wanted to borrow his car so that he could go pick up some SrA for a "date."

And, as this thread alludes to, justice was never really truly served. After his DO tenure, Quinene went to the Marine Corps Staff College in Quantico, a pretty prestigious gig for an Air Force guy. This investigation went down while he was there, so he ended up on admin hold in the DC for a while. I figured he was there until the investigation was completed and the court-martial proceedings could begin. Nope, instead he got sent to the CAOC for a year. That's right, instead of being prosecuted, HE GOT SENT TO BE IN CHARGE OF SOME OF THE SAME LIEUTENANTS AND CAPTAINS HE HAD TERRORIZING AND ASSAULTING 18 MONTHS BEFORE!!!

The small bit of justice that was actually done was that, after his deployment, he was assigned to HQ AETC (where, presumably, senior leaders could keep an eye on him). He ended up getting passed over for promotion and had to get out before he was retirement eligible. Last I heard he was in the San Antonio area. He had been working for some local politician, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

As you can probably tell, I feel pretty passionate about this. I can't tell you how many times I've told people that I was an instructor during this time and they ask, "So what was the deal?" The damage that Quinene (and to a lesser extent, Rolirad) did to the Air Force intelligence community will felt for years to come. How many good ISR students (and staff) were totally soured by their experience and bailed at the first opportunity? Worse still, how many of them left GAFB thinking that sort of behavior was OK?

So, if any victims are out there reading this, I'm sorry that we, as a staff, didn't do more to protect you. Five years later and it still bothers me."

"Finally "we" get to see 30% of the story acknowledged by the AF. I was there for 1.5 years of the terror. The report is missing a vast amount of information. It only addresses infractions against officer students (which I'm not downplaying, all of their complaints are 100% valid; the rape case is also missing). Enlisted students suffered greatly, office-instructors suffered greatly, and enlisted-instructors suffered greatly.

Yes, their tenure at the 315 TRS is known as the dark ages to all those who experienced it.

In my 19 year AF career I've never personally experienced/witnessed anything like the horror show Karen Rolirad and David Quinene put on. The crazy part is I was never a direct victim of their wrath; but I feel it weighing heavy on my soul to this day. I am guilty of the bystander effect. I saw the transgressions but did not take requisite action. I do not believe it would've done any good given the mountains of IG complaints by other instructors; but that is no excuse, it was my duty. I failed at my duty. I own that. I have to live with that. My inputs may have turned the tide.

If you have ever been victim to a toxic leader, a truly toxic leader, it is something that is not easy to cope with; even 5 years after the fact. I saw many peers, friends, and students (officer & enlisted) belittled, unjustly punished, careers destroyed, career altering decisions made, near suicides, etc because of Rodirad and Quinene's dark rule of fear, intimidation, and bullying.

I'm not sure what's worse. The fact there are officers like these two in an American military or the fact that they are allowed to get away with it. Where is the courts-martial? TIs at Lackland get prison, as they should. If you're Rolirad (who repeatedly violated several UCMJ articles and USCs) you get to retire honorably and get a job for the city of San Antonio as an AF liaison. I do not profess to know all the reasons why there are morale issues in the AF, but I can certainly attest that the lack of accountability in the officer corps (O-5+) and SNCO corps is a contributing factor."

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by panchbarnes

[panchbarnes]

Redacted CDI report in its entirety released...It's only a glimpse of how toxic it was.

And from one of the Facebook comments:

" Can't agree more. As an Captain Reservist, I hated seeing my 2d Lt classmates talk about how this is how the Air Force works, that you had to suck up and party with the Patch in order to get a good assignment. A newly divorced, highly inappropriate Patch I may add. Rolirad encouraged and covered up for him and the rest of the rotten instructors. There were only a few good instructors, and they were enlsited or civilian."

Responsive Records.pdf

Edited June 11, 2016 by panchbarnes
Full report is out

[Marlboro BLACK]

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Waco--Hoverboard-could-derail-BU-grads-Air-Force-career-hopes-383195741.html

Looks like ROTC Captains seem to have a lot of time on their hands these days 

[Ram]

Rumor has it that this kid is a giant douche who had a history. This was just the last straw...

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Ram said:

Rumor has it that this kid is a giant douche who had a history. This was just the last straw...

Maybe they should have documented some of the history, instead of threatening to wash a kid out for riding one of these admittedly ridiculous hoverboard contraptions.

[herkbum]

Well it sounds like someone at Eglin may soon be able to shed light on this dude. If he's a douchebag now, he's unlikely to change very quickly.

[SuperWSO]

5 hours ago, herkbum said:

Well it sounds like someone at Eglin may soon be able to shed light on this dude. If he's a douchebag now, he's unlikely to change very quickly.

... But now he is 2Lt Douchebag!

[HuggyU2]

Why is any of this relevant... to anything?

A 2Lt that's unpopular with the status quo. 

Newsworthy. 

[GKinnear]

The Pentagon's plan to hire military leaders off the street

 

The shoe clerkery has gone full retard. WOs, oh hell no; but O-6 hired off the street is acceptable? WTFO...

 

EDIT: yes it's more of a DoD issue, than just AF specific. I really hope this is just polite consideration since Carter is name dropped in the article and not serious.

Edited June 19, 2016 by GKinnear
background

[Jaded]

Um, why is that a bad idea? 

[guineapigfury]

Let's take people with zero miltary experience and start them as Group Commanders, what could possibly go wrong?  There is a much better fix mentioned in the article: filling these hard to fill spots with GS personnel.  That solves the pay issue and mitigates the lack of military experience by keeping them out of uniform.

[Jaded]

I guess I don't understand how opening up leadership positions to a bigger pool is a bad idea. If a civilian wants to be the mission support group commander, I say let him or her interview against whatever O-6 was "groomed" for that position. I think this organization would be improved with some outsider perspectives in positions of authority.

[bluedevil]

The military is not a profit maximizing entity. It will never run like one because it's a part of the insanely bureaucratic gov't. I'm all for hiring some intelligent and successful dudes off the street but they simply won't be able to achieve anything without systematic change throughout the DoD. Until big blue realizes how powerless a Sq or even a Gp CC is, nothing will change. Although maybe bringing these dudes in and watching them spin their wheels for two years will shed light on that fact...

[GKinnear]

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Um, why is that a bad idea? 

Two quick thoughts

 

1) We have to remember that our ultimate "end product" is to lead Airmen in combat. IMO, the assumptions that DoD leadership is basing that idea on is one of a peace-time, business model. It seems like they think that any goober an come in and order troops to their death to take some random hill. If it is primarily to stand-up a Cyber MAJCOM, or other specialty fields, GS and contractors already fit that bill. Or create another professional Corps (JAG/Medical/Chaplain). 17Ds are already LAF guys, it'd be a slippery slope until the direct commission is opened up wide. It's a disconnect between the civilian/military leaders. It's been stated before, this is just another example.

2) On the basis that it fly's in the face of Big Blue's insistence that in-res grads from IDE are the "chosen ones", maybe it's not so bad.

[Jaded]

Fair enough. I guess I've just seen a lot more of group commanders sitting in meeting after useless meeting, and not a lot of ordering troops to their death.

[matmacwc]

We want to hire you as an O-6, but first.....

2.5 years of PME, 1 year Masters and a frontal lobotomy.  Yeah, that'll go over well.

[Champ Kind]

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Fair enough. I guess I've just seen a lot more of group commanders sitting in meeting after useless meeting, and not a lot of ordering troops to their death.

100% agree.  I get more inspiration out of watching a TedTalk on youtube than I do listening to the same old, tired rhetoric of a kool-aid spewing O-6/above.

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, guineapigfury said:

Let's take people with zero miltary experience and start them as Group Commanders, what could possibly go wrong?  There is a much better fix mentioned in the article: filling these hard to fill spots with GS personnel.  That solves the pay issue and mitigates the lack of military experience by keeping them out of uniform.

Weird...plenty of companies can succeed by hiring CEOs from outside the company, or even outside the industry, but there's no way the military can possibly make it work...

Doesn't this also neatly circumvent the problem of the box-checking, risk-averse micro-managers getting picked up for these command slots?  Might be nice to have some folks willing to take a risk because 1. they don't have 20+ years already invested and 2. they have a cushy fall-back position if they fail.  We constantly piss and moan about the wrong people being placed in leadership positions, due to the incentives the Air Force puts into place.  Is it so outlandish to think that people who have not been subjected to the same incentives their entire careers may come up with different solutions?

[guineapigfury]

I think it would aggravate the problem of risk aversion.  If you start hiring CCs off the street you're reducing the number of slots for career officers.  Now they're squabbling over an ever shrinking piece of the pie.  The rational response is to micromanage your people so nothing ever goes wrong on your watch.  Why develop your people, we'll just hire leaders from Facebook.  YGBFSM.  If you want to see how this concept would work out, look at the nonstop clown orgy that is the MQ-9 community.  Good people flying the line with little to no hope of career advancement led by shiny penny outsiders without relevant experience ... it's going as well as the retention numbers indicate.

[Jaded]

You are reducing the number of slots for career officers, but opening up those slots to officers who say, served for 6 years, got out, got an advanced degree, worked in the civilian world for a while, and who want to serve in the military again. That potentially actually reduces pressure on officers at all levels, because a single bad promotion board doesn't end your career (since you could get out and back in again.)

I don't really think that the MQ-9 community is a very good example. It's a horrible train wreck of a disaster for so many reasons that simply blaming it on outsiders really paints an incomplete picture IMO.

It would be cool to have more commanders who simply wanted that job, rather than see it as a stepping stone to the next job.

[guineapigfury]

I think letting people come back in from civilian life to take what maybe the single most important job in the USAF (SQ/CC) would breed enormous resentment.  If we want people to gain experience and come back, we should expand the sabbatical program.  If the sabbatical becomes normalized and valid path for high performers to take (analogous to a school slot), I have no objection.  If that took the form of going in residence to a top notch civilian school to get a relevant degree, that could be an amazing benefit for the Air Force.  However, I'm not sure that separating and reentering would or should give people any extra looks at promotion other than slipping a couple yeargroups to the right.

You're right that MQ-9s are dysfunctional for a multitude of reasons, but outsider leadership is one of the very few variables we can actually control.  RPA commanders of any sort should have to be 11Us or 18Xs with at least 1000 RPA hours.  Also, to the max extent possible they need to have some blood on their hands (N/A for Global Hawks).

[SnapLock]

1 hour ago, guineapigfury said:

I think letting people come back in from civilian life to take what maybe the single most important job in the USAF (SQ/CC) would breed enormous resentment.  If we want people to gain experience and come back, we should expand the sabbatical program.  If the sabbatical becomes normalized and valid path for high performers to take (analogous to a school slot), I have no objection.  If that took the form of going in residence to a top notch civilian school to get a relevant degree, that could be an amazing benefit for the Air Force.  However, I'm not sure that separating and reentering would or should give people any extra looks at promotion other than slipping a couple yeargroups to the right.

You're right that MQ-9s are dysfunctional for a multitude of reasons, but outsider leadership is one of the very few variables we can actually control.  RPA commanders of any sort should have to be 11Us or 18Xs with at least 1000 RPA hours.  Also, to the max extent possible they need to have some blood on their hands (N/A for Global Hawks).

"2"

By hiring from the outside you will create resentment, especially from the guy who was right there ready to take over and then didn't get the job.  I know that might not be bad but I think the resentment and back biting that would occur would undercut the "O-6 wonderboy" from the civilian world.  Either way I also think credibility would be an issue.  The first misstep or not knowing what ### acronym means would surely create a lack of trust and confidence in the leader who was already at a disadvantage.  I can't imagine how many people would be talking about their O-6 who just isn't "one of them" or who "just doesn't get it" because they came from the civilian world.  

Overall this is a really bad idea.  

I think the key to fixing the leadership problems is making leaders based off of credibility, i.e. job performance in their primary duty and demonstrated integrity and leadership ability.  NOT automatically choosing the IDE in-res grad who has been away from the jet for the last 3-4 years.