What's wrong with the Air Force?

[magnetfreezer]

15 hours ago, dream big said:

Our patch wearer got back from weapons school in January, a few months later he went off to the wing to be an exec.  Now the squadron lost their only patch.  That's what is wrong with the Air Force. 

AFGSC is taking captain patches from multiple MDS after about a year in Tier 1 billets and sending them to Striker Vista - 2 years of career broadening, 1 year as exec/general's aide. Most likely followed by guaranteed school slot and staff, imagine coming back as a DO/CC after 6-7 years out of the jet.

[di1630]

All this patch talk goes deeper to another problem: going to WIC was never supposed to be a career enhancing milestone....it was so that an already good IP could go, get firsthand experience and bring it back to the sq.

If there were enough resources, everyone would go to WIC.

[Champ Kind]

3 hours ago, di1630 said:

All this patch talk goes deeper to another problem: going to WIC was never supposed to be a career enhancing milestone....it was so that an already good IP could go, get firsthand experience and bring it back to the sq.

If there were enough resources, everyone would go to WIC.

 

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, magnetfreezer said:

AFGSC is taking captain patches from multiple MDS after about a year in Tier 1 billets and sending them to Striker Vista - 2 years of career broadening, 1 year as exec/general's aide. Most likely followed by guaranteed school slot and staff, imagine coming back as a DO/CC after 6-7 years out of the jet.

It's going to be fun if they stick to the planned timeline.  Ram a guy through the B-course, put him in a squadron, and a year later make him an instructor.

For reference, our normal upgrade timeline is a year to AC, and at least another 6 months to flight lead, then instructor.  But the plan is to make them an instructor within a year of graduating the B-course in the new jet, but they'll never actually instruct anyone - they'll be leaving for whatever school they're selected for.

[ThreeHoler]

AFGSC is taking captain patches from multiple MDS after about a year in Tier 1 billets and sending them to Striker Vista - 2 years of career broadening, 1 year as exec/general's aide. Most likely followed by guaranteed school slot and staff, imagine coming back as a DO/CC after 6-7 years out of the jet.

Welcome to AMC.

[osulax05]

7 hours ago, di1630 said:

All this patch talk goes deeper to another problem: going to WIC was never supposed to be a career enhancing milestone....it was so that an already good IP could go, get firsthand experience and bring it back to the sq.

If there were enough resources, everyone would go to WIC.

I agree and wish new WOs in every community were given the chance to work in a true tier 1 billet where they will build, teach and lead the folks around them. However, I will never scoff at the idea of a WG/CC trying to improve the promotion/school chances of a patch. WIC grads for the most part  have proven themselves to be the type of leaders we want running things in the future.   Being an exec or DS is all part of the AF game to advance. We can hate on it as much as we want but very little will change until we get the right folks into WG/GP/SQ command positions.  Positioning a patch wearer to fill those positions is never a bad thing IMHO.

[di1630]

I agree and wish new WOs in every community were given the chance to work in a true tier 1 billet where they will build, teach and lead the folks around them. However, I will never scoff at the idea of a WG/CC trying to improve the promotion/school chances of a patch. WIC grads for the most part  have proven themselves to be the type of leaders we want running things in the future.   Being an exec or DS is all part of the AF game to advance. We can hate on it as much as we want but very little will change until we get the right folks into WG/GP/SQ command positions.  Positioning a patch wearer to fill those positions is never a bad thing IMHO.

No, IP skills does not always equal the guy who should be leading the squadron...tactics, yes, people, no.

Listen, I know a ton of great WIC grads. And I know just as many non-WIC grads who were topnotch IP's but not pushed to leadership because they didn't have a patch on their arm....even though they were the most respected flyers/leaders in their peer group.

I know some dudes who went to WIC simply to pad their resumes to get further...all smart, capable pilots but lacking the natural charisma or leadership traits normally desired. Because big blue pushed their paper record, the sq's were worse off when they were in charge. Good tactical leadership in flight , poor squadron leadership.

WIC grads are generally above average as a pool to choose leaders from but if they'd rather be an exec than a chief IP, find someone else for WIC.

A WIC grad should spend a good chunk of their career giving back to others with their tactical education.

The system is broken...when people try to justify WIC grads in exec spots to get promoted, I fear we have lost our focus.

[magnetfreezer]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

It's going to be fun if they stick to the planned timeline.  Ram a guy through the B-course, put him in a squadron, and a year later make him an instructor.

For reference, our normal upgrade timeline is a year to AC, and at least another 6 months to flight lead, then instructor.  But the plan is to make them an instructor within a year of graduating the B-course in the new jet, but they'll never actually instruct anyone - they'll be leaving for whatever school they're selected for.

Sorry, meant Striker Pathfinder... they wouldn't necessarily switch MDS. All the Striker programs seem to be taking the playbook from AMC (Phoenix?) programs as ThreeHoler implied.

[osulax05]

18 minutes ago, di1630 said:

 

...WIC grads are generally above average as a pool to choose leaders from but if they'd rather be an exec than a chief IP, find someone else for WIC.

A WIC grad should spend a good chunk of their career giving back to others with their tactical education.

In my corner of the AF patch wearers that become execs did not choose to do so. They were told that is their job. Not saying that is the case everywhere, just my observation so your take on WOs that would "rather" be an exec is a miss IMHO. I agree that the "best" use for a patch at the tactical level is in the Sq teaching the punks. However, I'd rather the Bobs be surrounded by folks who have the critical thinking/problem solving skills and a willingness to call The boss out that a 1ea patch has than the cock gobblers who would "rather" be an exec.

The WG/GP exec is always going to get ahead and have the ear of the boss, who do you want filling that role?

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, osulax05 said:

I agree and wish new WOs in every community were given the chance to work in a true tier 1 billet where they will build, teach and lead the folks around them. However, I will never scoff at the idea of a WG/CC trying to improve the promotion/school chances of a patch. WIC grads for the most part  have proven themselves to be the type of leaders we want running things in the future.   Being an exec or DS is all part of the AF game to advance. We can hate on it as much as we want but very little will change until we get the right folks into WG/GP/SQ command positions.  Positioning a patch wearer to fill those positions is never a bad thing IMHO.

I, too, have often wondered about the "I gave him a job as my exec to help him get a school slot" logic.  Isn't the WG/CC the one drafting the strats?  If you think the guy is deserving, you can give him a better strat than your own exec.  If you want to push the guy to school, you can push him to school.  You don't have to make him your bitch for a year in order to take care of the dude.

[Fug]

On 7/30/2016 at 11:03 AM, osulax05 said:

The WG/GP exec is always going to get ahead and have the ear of the boss, who do you want filling that role?

I want a WG/GP CC that knows to get information from the tactical level (SQ CC/IPs/FLs/Wingman/ACs/etc).  Maybe that is the person sitting in the Exec role.....maybe it isn't.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Fug
Perspective

[magnetfreezer]

3 hours ago, Fug said:

I want a WG/GP CC that knows to get information from the tactical level (SQ CC/IPs/FLs/Wingman/ACs/etc), not the guy/gal sitting in the desk just outside their office working on wordsmithing OPRs and managing an O-6+ schedule.

Yep... that's the wing weapons officer's job. Unfortunately most wings have them in the OSS leading to the "I have eight bosses, Bob" syndrome.

[Wing Sweep]

8 hours ago, osulax05 said:

...However, I will never scoff at the idea of a WG/CC trying to improve the promotion/school chances of a patch...Being an exec or DS is all part of the AF game to advance. We can hate on it as much as we want but very little will change...Positioning a patch wearer to fill those positions is never a bad thing IMHO.

I will scoff it all day long. Patches should never ever be exec; period, dot.

Its only part of the Air Force game because retard Wg/CCs are too dumb to think outside the container...they can #1 strat whoever the frick they want, not just execs. Then we have people justifying it for all sorts of dumb reasons. CCs who make patches execs (i.e. secretaries) should be fired for wasting government resources! 

I hope you will reconsider your thoughts on this because patches need to be in the squadrons making crew dogs killers, not giving advice to the wing commander. If the wing commander wants advice from a patch he can stop by the squadron, look him in the eye and say, "hey captain, I'd like your advice on x, y, z..."

That type of leadership is rarely seen anymore. WTF is happening! Seriously, are we that far off track as a fighting force that we can't even get the basic stuff right like letting a patch be a patch.

You, my friend, do have the power to change it. You mentor the young dudes in the squadron about the way things should be and set the example. If you continue the status quo, nothing changes.

Sad to hear this is happening and fellow officers are actually okay with this.

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by g2s

[F16Deuce]

On July 30, 2016 at 3:36 PM, g2s said:

I will scoff it all day long. Patches should never ever be exec; period, dot.

Its only part of the Air Force game because retard Wg/CCs are too dumb to think outside the container...they can #1 strat whoever the frick they want, not just execs. Then we have people justifying it for all sorts of dumb reasons. CCs who make patches execs (i.e. secretaries) should be fired for wasting government resources!

 

This.

[Lord Ratner]

Push promotions O 1-5 down to the wing commander level. Some will get it wrong, but at least those with the big picture can stop doing stupid things (patch wearers as execs) just to satisfy the great faceless promotion board.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[brabus]

I know plenty of patches who are great dudes and either already in leadership positions or definitely heading that way, all without any ballwash jobs on the resume (i.e. exec).  Even if a lot of OG/WG CCs hold that #1 strat for the exec, the patch is still going somewhere as #2/3 out of 169, so who cares.  It unfortunately sounds like some communities still don't understand how to best utilize their WOs; the CAF does a lot of stupid shit too, but WO utilization is something the MAF, etc. needs to take a page out of the CAF's book on.  The fact that I can't even talk to one face-face from a certain community while deployed, and have to email a bro back in the states for questions/discussion is fucking outrageous.

[dream big]

11 hours ago, g2s said:

I will scoff it all day long. Patches should never ever be exec; period, dot.

Its only part of the Air Force game because retard Wg/CCs are too dumb to think outside the container...they can #1 strat whoever the frick they want, not just execs. Then we have people justifying it for all sorts of dumb reasons. CCs who make patches execs (i.e. secretaries) should be fired for wasting government resources! 

I hope you will reconsider your thoughts on this because patches need to be in the squadrons making crew dogs killers, not giving advice to the wing commander. If the wing commander wants advice from a patch he can stop by the squadron, look him in the eye and say, "hey captain, I'd like your advice on x, y, z..."

That type of leadership is rarely seen anymore. WTF is happening! Seriously, are we that far off track as a fighting force that we can't even get the basic stuff right like letting a patch be a patch.

You, my friend, do have the power to change it. You mentor the young dudes in the squadron about the way things should be and set the example. If you continue the status quo, nothing changes.

Sad to hear this is happening and fellow officers are actually okay with this.

 

 

Big f*ing +2 man

keep in mind this patch was the first patch working in the squadron in over 3 years...less than half a year getting the squadron back to a tactical mindset and off he goes.  FYI I'm pretty sure he's going to punch asap.  There goes more talent out the door.  Well done big blue.

Edited July 31, 2016 by dream big

[Champ Kind]

4 hours ago, brabus said:

It unfortunately sounds like some communities still don't understand how to best utilize their WOs; the CAF does a lot of stupid shit too, but WO utilization is something the MAF, etc. needs to take a page out of the CAF's book on.

Bingo.

The MAF is finally starting to get to a point where it knows what to do with weapons officers, but not all (arguably most) senior raters have caught up to those in the CAF. Not helping is that many MAF squadron commanders look at WOs as crack PROJOs that they can fire & forget on those hot high-vis (and non-tactical) taskers from their bosses and produce desired results to pad their performance reports. All because, to them, these guys/gals went to a 6-month school where prioritization and time management were keys to success and that makes them uniquely qualified to do something that really any officer could pull off (not to mention if it's something anyone should be bothering with anyway). They justify it by saying those projects give you "breadth" where WIC gives you "depth" and that boards don't care about how well you trained the FNGs or built/added to a squadron mindset.

It's sad.

[dream big]

Any guard/reserve bubbas on here that can speak to how WOs are utilized in their units? I understand it may vary by airframe.

[matmacwc]

I personally know 2 that came off active duty as WG patches (both about 12 years of service), put back into the squadron as the weapons officers through about their LtCol boards (ROTMA, think 2 above the zone), moved back to WG patch.  Then destined for leadership roles.  I think AD could learn something from this.

[JarheadBoom]

12 hours ago, dream big said:

Any guard/reserve bubbas on here that can speak to how WOs are utilized in their units? I understand it may vary by airframe.

I never saw one in the KC-10 world, Active or Reserve.  8 years in the jet as a Reservist.

Disclaimer: I don't know if there's a tanker WIC/KC-10 WIC.

[ThreeHoler]

There is a KC-135 WIC and their graduates sometime cross flow. Travis and McGuire AD both have (had?) WOs...and they were poorly used by my understanding of what they are supposed to do and what leadership had them do.

[tac airlifter]

I can't generate the energy to care about the "misuse" of WOs in my corner of the AF.  I think the WO program was designed for the fighter world and is not a good fit for MAF or SOF.  I personally have not seen the benefit justify the cost in my world. FWIC seems legitimately valuable.  

[tac airlifter]

2 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

disagree, i think WOs are a great fit for SOF if used how this thread is advocating

But they won't ever be used in SOF the way this thread is advocating.  Our culture is different, and it's unlikely to change.  Consequently, we don't get a justifiable return on investment.  It's just my opinion, and I know it's controversial.  I just think the AF took an idea that worked in fighters and tried to fit it into a myraid of different cultures and it doesn't fit.  

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

But they won't ever be used in SOF the way this thread is advocating.  Our culture is different, and it's unlikely to change.  Consequently, we don't get a justifiable return on investment.  It's just my opinion, and I know it's controversial.  I just think the AF took an idea that worked in fighters and tried to fit it into a myraid of different cultures and it doesn't fit.  

Well, yes, and I used to be totally against it, but now I am not.  The tanker/airlift/SOF bubba need to speak to fighter WO's when planning/executing a war on a different level than most.  WIC teaches that.