What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Chuck17]

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I think the WO program was designed for the fighter world and is not a good fit for MAF or SOF.  I personally have not seen the benefit justify the cost in my world. FWIC seems legitimately valuable.  

Perhaps not. Come to the AOC, it'll open up a whole new world for ya... The MAF literally doesn't know what it's missing. Literally. As in - the MAF is clownshoes compared to how the CAF thinks about, plans for, trains to, and then executes the mission of the USAF. 

That's the reason the MAF needs WOs. The future is integrated.... the (insert scoff here) "we're the MAF, we're different" garbage doesn't work anymore. 

Chuck

Edited August 2, 2016 by Chuck17

[Guest LumberjackAxe]

1 hour ago, Chuck17 said:

...The MAF literally doesn't know what it's missing. Literally. As in - the MAF is clownshoes compared to how the CAF thinks about, plans for, trains to, and then executes the mission of the USAF...

Holy sh*t, that's so true. As a Three Holer transplant to the U-2, I had no idea just how fvcking clueless we were to the rest of the fight. One of those you don't know what you don't know situations. Knowing how the CAF works (especially in northern Iraq) would give MAF crews a much bigger piece of SA that would let them make better and more informed decisions. Granted, my experience is mainly with left hand turns, but if I knew then what I know now about the CAF, we could've made much more informed decisions on where to put those left hand orbits and improved our mission execution.

But I'm not sure having a full blown WO course would be necessary. I think that knowledge gap could be easily closed with much more feasible methods, such as a local upgrade or cert--I'm guessing that the amount of training that a would-be MAF "Patch" or equivalent needs probably doesn't warrant an entire WO course. 

[StoleIt]

27 minutes ago, LumberjackAxe said:

Holy sh*t, that's so true. As a Three Holer transplant to the U-2, I had no idea just how fvcking clueless we were to the rest of the fight. One of those you don't know what you don't know situations. Knowing how the CAF works (especially in northern Iraq) would give MAF crews a much bigger piece of SA that would let them make better and more informed decisions. Granted, my experience is mainly with left hand turns, but if I knew then what I know now about the CAF, we could've made much more informed decisions on where to put those left hand orbits and improved our mission execution.

But I'm not sure having a full blown WO course would be necessary. I think that knowledge gap could be easily closed with much more feasible methods, such as a local upgrade or cert--I'm guessing that the amount of training that a would-be MAF "Patch" or equivalent needs probably doesn't warrant an entire WO course. 

So...BATS and/or CATS?

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Perhaps not. Come to the AOC, it'll open up a whole new world for ya... The MAF literally doesn't know what it's missing. Literally. As in - the MAF is clownshoes compared to how the CAF thinks about, plans for, trains to, and then executes the mission of the USAF. 

That's the reason the MAF needs WOs. The future is integrated.... the (insert scoff here) "we're the MAF, we're different" garbage doesn't work anymore. 

Chuck

Agreed the SOF patches at the CAOC were top-notch and they spoke a common language across MWSs and communities. The MAF needs patches to be able to integrate hands down, I watched my boss opens doors with other communities because of his patch that I couldn't open or at least on the same level. The future is most definitely integrated and we need people who know how to work on that level. 

We in the MAF are bad at managing the patches, most of our squadrons go years without a patches leaving it to a handful of people to try to keep the tactical employment alive. I think we are just starting to turn the corner at least in the C-17 community. 

As for a WIC-lite course/local upgrade, where exactly do you expect to find time or money to put on such a course? To learn to integrate you need to actually integrate (not notional blue air in a local training sortie), that takes time in pre-coordination and money for available assets. Also commanders that allow people to be locally set aside for such a course. We have a hard enough time getting people through our local large package lead program without getting caught up by something "more important". I've seen my community with and without patches (including guys that tried their best to fill the gaps), the difference is night and day in a good way. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Fuzz

[magnetfreezer]

11 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

But they won't ever be used in SOF the way this thread is advocating.  Our culture is different, and it's unlikely to change.  Consequently, we don't get a justifiable return on investment.  It's just my opinion, and I know it's controversial.  I just think the AF took an idea that worked in fighters and tried to fit it into a myraid of different cultures and it doesn't fit.  

How so? SOF aviation is very good at certain mission sets by themselves, but some things require escort, SEAD, NKE, etc. integration 

[ViperStud]

When Libya kicked off, wasn't the AFRICOM/CC a tanker chick?  I heard through the bro network about a few Viper patches getting there as planning kicked off and the word is that she was assholes and elbows and got a pat on the head for her "nice try" at coming up with a gameplan.

I'm sure the story was full of hyperbole by the time it got to the masses, but even if 10% true it speaks to a significant problem. 

[Chuck17]

On July 31, 2016 at 5:23 AM, Champ Kind said:

The MAF is finally starting to get to a point where it knows what to do with weapons officers, but not all (arguably most) senior raters have caught up to those in the CAF. Not helping is that many MAF squadron commanders look at WOs as crack PROJOs that they can fire & forget on those hot high-vis (and non-tactical) taskers from their bosses and produce desired results to pad their performance reports. All because, to them, these guys/gals went to a 6-month school where prioritization and time management were keys to success and that makes them uniquely qualified to do something that really any officer could pull off (not to mention if it's something anyone should be bothering with anyway). They justify it by saying those projects give you "breadth" where WIC gives you "depth" and that boards don't care about how well you trained the FNGs or built/added to a squadron mindset.

Right. 

The MAF doesn't have a patch problem. The MAF may in fact have an O-6 problem. Until CC's who grew up with patches reach the O-6 level (talking my own community here) it won't stop. It's starting... But until there is an across the board understanding of the roles and responsibilities, it won't change. Case in point, there is a whole reg that governs how patches will be used, placed, developed. AFI 11-415 I think. It was hell convincing wing level leadership that it is a no-shit reg that applied to their wing. It took a unit compliance inspection ding for squadron leadership to pull their heads out. That's not good, and admittedly was almost five years ago, but it's getting better...

And there will always be the one who gets shit done, who's smart, has a good rep, and good hands, who gets pulled into the bosses circle (read: exec, though I've never been one) so he can get pushed. That's how the game is played. Not for all but for some. You can rage against it or accept and drive on. What shouldn't be happening is wing/cc's hoarding the smart people, insulating their nests. Doing it to push a guy, okay. Doing it to the detriment of the squadrons, tread lightly.

To Champ's point: The fire and forget mentality is something that happens everywhere, it's just that it is exasterbated in the MAF because you have plenty of folks that spent their careers inside an insular community, generally devoid of integration with the rest of the USAF, in command of units that are now doing more integrating, both in training and in mission execution -- and these captains and majors wearing the target on their arms are speaking a language they don't speak, doing things they were never trained to do. Not just with other Air Force units but with the Army too. So they are forced to trust them.

Once proven, they go back to that well... Again, and again, and again. I've been on the receiving and am now on the giving end of having patches working for me - they're the easy button. It takes disciplined leadership to do it right and make sure everyone, not just your bright shiney project, benefits from having them in the squadron. YMMV.

Chuck

Edited August 2, 2016 by Chuck17
Clarity

[Chuck17]

9 hours ago, LumberjackAxe said:

But I'm not sure having a full blown WO course would be necessary. I think that knowledge gap could be easily closed with much more feasible methods, such as a local upgrade or cert--I'm guessing that the amount of training that a would-be MAF "Patch" or equivalent needs probably doesn't warrant an entire WO course. 

Perhaps. Certainly not a requirement for all to attend. It'd be nice if we could up the collective game/understanding of the communities writ-large, but that's why we send guys to Nellis it the first place, right?

I remain unconvinced there is any other way to go about educating the uneducated to that level - and that's the requirement right now. You cannot build a Rosetta Stone without learning a different language - that language is taught through integration, employment, planning, etc. Nothing else comes close. I've done every course a MAF guy can do - nothing compares to the experience and knowledge gained at Nellis.

Chuck

Edited August 2, 2016 by Chuck17

[Warrior]

Perhaps. Certainly not a requirement for all to attend. It'd be nice if we could up the collective game/understanding of the communities writ-large, but that's why we send guys to Nellis it the first place, right?

I remain unconvinced there is any other way to go about educating the uneducated to that level - and that's the requirement right now. You cannot build a Rosetta Stone without learning a different language - that language is taught through integration, employment, planning, etc. Nothing else comes close. I've done every course a MAF guy can do - nothing compares to the experience and knowledge gained at Nellis.

Chuck

Chuck is right.

Lumberjack-that in house stuff you're talking about is called BATS. Which everyone should be doing anyway

[Longhorn15]

7 hours ago, ViperStud said:

When Libya kicked off, wasn't the AFRICOM/CC a tanker chick?  I heard through the bro network about a few Viper patches getting there as planning kicked off and the word is that she was assholes and elbows and got a pat on the head for her "nice try" at coming up with a gameplan.

I'm sure the story was full of hyperbole by the time it got to the masses, but even if 10% true it speaks to a significant problem. 

Way more than 10% true.  "Maggie" was totally clueless, even the tanker plan sucked. 

[matmacwc]

Was she the one that wouldn't let the Vipers bomb this piss out of the downed Eagle?

[Longhorn15]

 

44 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Was she the one that wouldn't let the Vipers bomb this piss out of the downed Eagle?

Yes, we had to destroy our own jet a few days later.  Not sure which is worse...

[Herk Driver]

When Libya kicked off, wasn't the AFRICOM/CC a tanker chick?  I heard through the bro network about a few Viper patches getting there as planning kicked off and the word is that she was assholes and elbows and got a pat on the head for her "nice try" at coming up with a gameplan.

I'm sure the story was full of hyperbole by the time it got to the masses, but even if 10% true it speaks to a significant problem. 

The AFRICOM/CC has never been an AF GO.

Maj Gen Woodward, 17 AF/CC, maybe?

[Champ Kind]

18 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Doing it to the detriment of the squadrons, tread lightly.

Exactly what I have seen happen.

[SurelySerious]

Just in case you were wondering where Gen. Woodward was now...

15. June 2010 - April 2012, Commander, 17th Air Force, Ramstein AB, Germany.

16. May 2012 - September 2012, Acting Director, Operational Planning, Policy & Strategy, Deputy Chief of Staff, Operations, Plans and Requirements, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C. 

17. September 2012 - June 2013, Air Force Chief of Safety, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C., and Commander, Air Force Safety Center, Kirtland AFB, N.M.

18. June 2013 - present, Director, Air Force Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, Office of the Vice Chief of Staff, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C.

No longer, since spring 2014 when Gen Grosso took over and Woodward retired.

[Inertia17]

Plan to cut airmen's extra duties coming in weeks

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Danger41]

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Champ Kind]

This will require "yes men" commanders to come up on the net and admit that they need help... I have a feeling that the units that need it the most when not see any sweeping changes.

[viper154]

Unrelated to above,I am doing sport bitching here, but this is what is wrong with the AF. I got non vol UPT direct to RPAs. So be it, needs of the AF, undermanned career field blah blah blah. Holloman was a shit show, but they are undermanned and over worked, so be it. I have now been at my operarional base for 4 months, with about 15 other pilots/sensors that have been here just as long, if not longer. We have done ONE sim in 4 months. ing ONE sim, no flights. How can you justify sending manned pilots you just spent $1.2 million a pop to train to drones, and having them sit on their ass. 

Rant off. Back to my whisky. 

[scoobs]

Why? 

[guineapigfury]

Viper154, does your location rhyme with Schmannon?

[viper154]

22 minutes ago, guineapigfury said:

Viper154, does your location rhyme with Schmannon?

Indeed it does. 

Edited August 4, 2016 by viper154

[WTFAF]

Why? 

Choke yourself.

[scoobs]

14 hours ago, WTFAF said:

Choke yourself.

Why :)

[guineapigfury]