What's wrong with the Air Force?

[bronxbomber252]

IMHO, it will depend on how it is worded. From a Rescue perspective, I would like to see something like: SQ/CC can waive crew rest for real world rescue missions. Basically constrain the authority to missions where a fast decision is needed and lives depend on the mission going right now.

 

[Duck]

Hopefully C-17s get a waiver from the waiver, otherwise we will look forward to more gear up landings at the wrong airfield.

[Guest]

This is ridiculous. I would support lowering the approval to extend a duty day to a level that makes more sense, but I can't foresee circumstances where I would waive my crew rest. Less than 12 hours quickly becomes an insufficient amount of time once you factor in transit time to/from lodging and other issues that will inevitably come up

[tac airlifter]

Interesting to hear from other corners of the AF about this policy.  We all have our own context, which I think affects the perception of whether this change is good or bad.  For example, it never occurred to me that I should factor in transit to/from a hotel into my 12 hours; I'm accustomed to living a 5 minute walk from my aircraft.  There have been times weather was rolling in and the whole crew is awake sitting around looking at mission slides, and if we don't move takeoff time 45 minutes left we'll be stuck on the field while an op is happening elsewhere.  Of course we asked for a crew rest waiver-- we're all feeling great and if we don't leave earlier than expected, we miss the action.  I see this change as enabling those situations, but that's my context.  I haven't experienced a CC pushing me to fly when I know I'm unsafe.

I guess some folks are afraid they'll be pressured into flying an extra leg when everyone is beat, or worried they won't have enough time to check in/out of the hotel.  I don't have any response except: be a professional, know your limits, and speak truth to power.  From my viewpoint, this change pushes authority to people with the best ground truth of a situation.  If you have no faith in those people and have been previously relying on regs to protect you.... well, that sucks.  

[TreeA10]

I've always thought limits were set for a reason.  If anything goes wrong, whether fatigue related or not, extending your day is going to be questioned by just about everybody and will be the first nail driven by the higher food chain CYA crowd.

[RTB]

2 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

There have been times weather was rolling in and the whole crew is awake sitting around looking at mission slides, and if we don't move takeoff time 45 minutes left we'll be stuck on the field while an op is happening elsewhere.  Of course we asked for a crew rest waiver-- we're all feeling great and if we don't leave earlier than expected, we miss the action.  I see this change as enabling those situations, but that's my context.  I haven't experienced a CC pushing me to fly when I know I'm unsafe.

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

[LookieRookie]

17 minutes ago, RTB said:

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

It does or at least should have started it.

Edited September 21, 2017 by LookieRookie

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, RTB said:

Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway?

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Edited September 21, 2017 by tac airlifter

[ThreeHoler]

25 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations.

If we show to the jet, AMCC, squadron, etc. then my crew has started the FDP. Brief time doesn’t start our clock in AMC; show time (at the aforementioned locations) does.

If I’m awake and check the weather or SMS from my hotel room, then I’m not breaking crew rest by 202V3 2.1.2. If I get on the bus, I am still in the 12 hours of crew rest set aside for transportation, meals, etc.

This is why we have MAJCOM and Wing supplements...MAJCOMs have operational authority.

[RTB]

55 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Well that escalated quickly.  

25 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations

Apparently so.   Good info, sounds quite a bit different.  If we were briefing a mission or reviewing mission slides at the squadron or ops facility, our crew rest was over.

Edited September 21, 2017 by RTB

[tac airlifter]

25 minutes ago, RTB said:

Well that escalated quickly.  

Eh, not my intent. Sorry if it came off rudely. Like threeholer said, we all have different rules & norms.  I appreciate hearing other perspectives.

[dream big]

6 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

I've always thought limits were set for a reason.  If anything goes wrong, whether fatigue related or not, extending your day is going to be questioned by just about everybody and will be the first nail driven by the higher food chain CYA crowd.

I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up?

[ThreeHoler]

58 minutes ago, dream big said:

I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up?

There are people who think that...but not the people who write the 202/217.

Speaking of which...new 217V1 “soon.” God help us all!

[HossHarris]

4 hours ago, RTB said:

Well that escalated quickly.  

Here at a major airline, if I think about flying my flight duty period has started ....

[BADFNZ]

As the PIC, I just turn down FDP waivers every time.  Problem solved.

Edited September 22, 2017 by BADFNZ

[BashiChuni]

fascinating to see each communities take on this...to me this is a good change, but i can see how AMC would abuse it

[HU&W]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

fascinating to see each communities take on this...to me this is a good change, but i can see how AMC would abuse it

When TACC confuses themselves with PIC, what do you expect?

[MDDieselPilot]

On 9/21/2017 at 2:00 PM, tac airlifter said:

No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start.  Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time?

some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done.

Different communities, different atmospheres.  

I got burned by a load one time because she "didn't get a full 12 hours crew rest."  At an undisclosed location in southwest asia, I set my crew for alert around 15hrs prior.  I went by her room but she didn't answer after knocking several times and there was no chow hall/cadillac/bra note on her door.  I wrote the alert time on her board, and left.  Alert time rolls around and no call.. I eventually call the DO and he said they canx'd my line because I never notified my (1 of 2) loadmaster.  Evidently, this young gal was sleeping when I came by, stumbled out of her room with 9 hours left until alert, saw the legal time, and called in to say she wasn't going to get a full 12 hours of rest... EVEN THOUGH SHE HAD JUST BEEN SLEEPING.  I was irate, but how do you explain to a very new airman when to bend rules when she could very easily burn me again with "Well Capt DieselPilot said it's okay to violate this AFI." 

I'm guessing you're in a crew community as well, but sometimes we have to account for the lowest common denominator which means following the rules past any reasonable expectation.

[pawnman]

On 9/21/2017 at 1:30 PM, ThreeHoler said:

Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations.

If we show to the jet, AMCC, squadron, etc. then my crew has started the FDP. Brief time doesn’t start our clock in AMC; show time (at the aforementioned locations) does.

If I’m awake and check the weather or SMS from my hotel room, then I’m not breaking crew rest by 202V3 2.1.2. If I get on the bus, I am still in the 12 hours of crew rest set aside for transportation, meals, etc.

This is why we have MAJCOM and Wing supplements...MAJCOMs have operational authority.

That sound awful.  Our crew rest ends when we set foot in the squadron for the mission brief followed by the step brief.  That is, according to our interpretation of the AFI, "performing official duties" and therefore not "time away from official duties".

[herkbier]

14 hours ago, pawnman said:

That sound awful.  Our crew rest ends when we set foot in the squadron for the mission brief followed by the step brief.  That is, according to our interpretation of the AFI, "performing official duties" and therefore not "time away from official duties".

I think you guys are saying the same thing. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Herkbier

[MCO]

Seems like a lot of violent agreement. I'm for the change because it makes it easier for me as the PIC to make a reasonable decision and get a much faster response, but leaves me the ability to refuse if I think its unsafe. Unless I'm interpreting this wrong. Just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

Seems like a lot of violent agreement. I'm for the change because it makes it easier for me as the PIC to make a reasonable decision and get a much faster response, but leaves me the ability to refuse if I think its unsafe. Unless I'm interpreting this wrong. Just my 2 cents.

The downside is when you refuse and TACC bitches to your CC who then decides you’re not a “team player.” Not a risk with my current boss, but seen some who like to second guess their ACs decisions.

[Lawman]

The downside is when you refuse and TACC bitches to your CC who then decides you’re not a “team player.” Not a risk with my current boss, but seen some who like to second guess their ACs decisions.

Is that like when weather always seems like it is exactly within the minimums even when you walk back from the aircraft soaked/covered in snow.

Gotta love that crap.

[dream big]

On 10/5/2017 at 11:28 PM, Lawman said:

 

Is that like when weather always seems like it is exactly within the minimums even when you walk back from the aircraft soaked/covered in snow.

Gotta love that crap.

 

Or when home station coordinates with AMD behind your back to extend duty day to 18 hours so you can bring a tail back home a day earlier for the purposes of an Air show.  

[Lord Ratner]

Or when home station coordinates with AMD behind your back to extend duty day to 18 hours so you can bring a tail back home a day earlier for the purposes of an Air show.  

This only stops when ACs have the backbone to say "no."