What's wrong with the Air Force?

[xaarman]

I think Moseley. 2005-2008. 

 

It's when the Deid, at its peak, went full retard. It's when the Airmans Creed was invented, Chiefs finally outruled everyone, and the invention of "everyone is a warrior." He said we need to cut people to pay for hardware, had a ton of scandals, and was finally fired for nuclear shenanigans.  Masters degrees came back from Gen Jumper, and the Generals, with the economy in the shits and the support of Moseley, said "if you don't like it, get out." Oh, and UPT Direct to RPAs.

 

Schwartz was a close second with the nuclear enterprise "changes", Fitness test Salem witch trials, and Blues Monday. He could have undone the damage that Mosely did, but instead double downed on the policies at the Deid, making him a close second. He could have ended the reign of fighter pilot CSAFs, but he did such a piss poor job that the next guy was back to the status quo.  

 

Welsh had the unfortunate job of cleaning up everyone elses scandals and a terrible SECAF. Oh well, what could have been.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by xaarman

[Clark Griswold]

11 hours ago, xaarman said:

I think Moseley. 2005-2008. 

It's when the Deid, at its peak, went full retard. It's when the Airmans Creed was invented, Chiefs finally outruled everyone, and the invention of "everyone is a warrior." He said we need to cut people to pay for hardware, had a ton of scandals, and was finally fired for nuclear shenanigans.  Masters degrees came back from Gen Jumper, and the Generals, with the economy in the shits and the support of Moseley, said "if you don't like it, get out." Oh, and UPT Direct to RPAs.

Schwartz was a close second with the nuclear enterprise "changes", Fitness test Salem witch trials, and Blues Monday. He could have undone the damage that Mosely did, but instead double downed on the policies at the Deid, making him a close second. He could have ended the reign of fighter pilot CSAFs, but he did such a piss poor job that the next guy was back to the status quo.  

Welsh had the unfortunate job of cleaning up everyone elses scandals and a terrible SECAF. Oh well, what could have been.

Ditto on Moseley also.  

I remember the 45k Airman cut to buy the Raptor, the beginning of PT uniforms / testing and basically the descent into madness also.

He was not the worst but the point at which it really started to go off the rails.

At some point around 2004, it should have been realized we were in new territory and the AF needed a fundamental change as we didn't have the resources to keep doing things as they always had been done and handle the new missions, pace of ops, etc... and shift with the times.  Easy to say with 10+ years of hindsight but that's why we pay them the big bucks, to have a forward looking vision...

Edited December 10, 2017 by Clark Griswold
spelling

[tac airlifter]

I also think Moseley.  He proudly prioritized hardware over humans, stiff armed RPAs and all things GWOT when it was obvious we weren't getting an easy win & needed to invest in the war.  Mostly though, by his obstinacy and subsequent firing he enabled the takeover of Schwartz who embodied all things weak and pathetic about our service.

That said, honorable mention goes to Welsh for the false hope things would improve followed by his double down on bureaucratic stupid while collapse accelerated.

[Clark Griswold]

Related question to the CSAF sidebar and overall topic of the thread - is Moseley just a stand in for the generic Fighter General and that’s the problem?
Schwartz was not an 11F and only pushed the throttles up on the way to point insanity so I believe that less but others have mentioned that idea before (fighter guy always in charge) - is it a problem of “the same guy” is always in charge ?

[brickhistory]

Nope.  Like promotes like.  So to get into the club, 99.69% of the time only those that are like me - think like me, act like me, respond like me - are going to get into the club.

I do not blame just CSAF.  Every single 3 or 4 star for the last, at least, 15 years who wasn't willing to fall on his/her sword and say "Enough!" bears responsibility. I am unaware of any such examples.

Congress writes the checks.  They need to be told to whom to write those checks.  "We got this" is not always the right answer, but giving such will cost a few corporate board memberships or media talking skull opportunities.

We, collectively, also bear some of the blame.  How many at the lower echelons were willing to publicly fall on our swords?  A few, but not enough to make the GOs get uncomfortable until the iceberg had already ripped the gash (sts) down the length of the ship.

Or was it just easier to bail and go airlines?  Or to whatever wasn't a dysfunctional Big Blue.

[panchbarnes]

I think the blame goes to the administration, who sets the overall atmosphere through the SECDEF and secretaries that are put in place.  The chiefs are supposed to work with the secretaries to represent and advocate for the men and women in uniform and shield us from political "crap."  But it appears the past few CSAFs failed spectacularly at their job.  The previous round of service chiefs and secretaries have got to be the worst collection of services managers ever assembled to date.  D James, R Mabus, E Fanning, J Amos and M Welsh.

Welsh deserves plenty of blame but he was also dealing with James and the NCR politics.  Perhaps should have resigned in protest?

Moseley started the downward spiral, kudos to him for standing firm on the raptors (even if it's standing on the back of the airmen), but he really got fired by Gates (actually not bad SECDEF) for not providing enough tactical support.  The nuke and the Nellis scandals just added gasoline to the fire.

Edited December 10, 2017 by panchbarnes
Got one of the names wrong. Apology to the Devil Dogs.

[Clark Griswold]

3 hours ago, brickhistory said:

... Every single 3 or 4 star for the last, at least, 15 years who wasn't willing to fall on his/her sword and say "Enough!" bears responsibility. I am unaware of any such examples.

Congress writes the checks.  They need to be told to whom to write those checks.  "We got this" is not always the right answer, but giving such will cost a few corporate board memberships or media talking skull opportunities.

We, collectively, also bear some of the blame.  How many at the lower echelons were willing to publicly fall on our swords?  A few, but not enough to make the GOs get uncomfortable until the iceberg had already ripped the gash (sts) down the length of the ship.

Or was it just easier to bail and go airlines?  Or to whatever wasn't a dysfunctional Big Blue.

Good words.

The decline didn't happen overnight and not due to action / inaction of one but of many and over many years.

There's always that problem, do I stand and fight probably to die (metaphorically) or withdraw and live to fight another day?  Quit and make a statement with my feet or try to fix from the inside?  Principle or Rationalization?

No one answer is always right except "it depends" and is only is dependent on the individual having the moral character to ask themselves that question.

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Good words.

The decline didn't happen overnight and not due to action / inaction of one but of many and over many years.

There's always that problem, do I stand and fight probably to die (metaphorically) or withdraw and live to fight another day?  Quit and make a statement with my feet or try to fix from the inside?  Principle or Rationalization?

No one answer is always right except "it depends" and is only is dependent on the individual having the moral character to ask themselves that question.

dare i say "pick your battles?"

[Clark Griswold]

dare i say "pick your battles?"

Ha
But yes ultimately it is that.

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

dare i say "pick your battles?"

Thats a keg, you should go to timeout.

[brickhistory]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

dare i say "pick your battles?"

Which, apparently, meant never fighting by past leadership all along the line.

 

[FUSEPLUG]

Where’s Chang?  I’d love to hear his opinion on this...

Edited December 11, 2017 by FUSEPLUG
Did I really just say that?!

[Lord Ratner]

dare i say "pick your battles?"

STOP! If we say it two more times he will be summoned...

[Crackity Jones]

On 12/10/2017 at 12:07 PM, brickhistory said:

Nope.  Like promotes like.  So to get into the club, 99.69% of the time only those that are like me - think like me, act like me, respond like me - are going to get into the club.

I do not blame just CSAF.  Every single 3 or 4 star for the last, at least, 15 years who wasn't willing to fall on his/her sword and say "Enough!" bears responsibility. I am unaware of any such examples.

Congress writes the checks.  They need to be told to whom to write those checks.  "We got this" is not always the right answer, but giving such will cost a few corporate board memberships or media talking skull opportunities.

We, collectively, also bear some of the blame.  How many at the lower echelons were willing to publicly fall on our swords?  A few, but not enough to make the GOs get uncomfortable until the iceberg had already ripped the gash (sts) down the length of the ship.

Or was it just easier to bail and go airlines?  Or to whatever wasn't a dysfunctional Big Blue.

This isn't Milgram's Experiment. Everyone who doesn't speak up or is afraid of showing red on a slide guilty of collusion. We supposedly teach that the lowest Airman or Lt can call safety in the air, because that can get us killed. If we practiced what we preach in the air on the ground, and promoted accordingly, we'd fix most of our problems.

[08Dawg]

Here's one more papercut from my little corner of the AF...we got an email the other day that our squadron was required to offer up a body to be a green dot facilitator.  We're trying to keep up with our flying mission with our manning well below 100% (just like, I'm sure, everybody else) and now we're mandated to have someone take (more) time out of their schedule to go deal with the Green Dot bullshittery....UFB.  I kinda thought the point of the people that facilitate that program was that they actually had some buy-in or personal experience to share....now it's just another onerous ancillary duty and yet another straw crushing the air power camel. 

[brabus]

I hope your commander says no. And then the OG says no. And then the wg/cc crushes the balls of the ass hat who thought this made sense. Wait..that's the guard, or hopefully your leadership is part of the micro-minority that are actually leaders. 

[Guardian]

I hope your commander says no. And then the OG says no. And then the wg/cc crushes the balls of the ass hat who thought this made sense. Wait..that's the guard, or hopefully your leadership is part of the micro-minority that are actually leaders. 

I wish that were the guard

[Disco_Nav963]

10 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

Here's one more papercut from my little corner of the AF...we got an email the other day that our squadron was required to offer up a body to be a green dot facilitator.  We're trying to keep up with our flying mission with our manning well below 100% (just like, I'm sure, everybody else) and now we're mandated to have someone take (more) time out of their schedule to go deal with the Green Dot bullshittery....UFB.  I kinda thought the point of the people that facilitate that program was that they actually had some buy-in or personal experience to share....now it's just another onerous ancillary duty and yet another straw crushing the air power camel. 

You forgot to mention you're deployed hacking the mish right now as well... Worthy also of the "Leadership at the Deid" thread.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Disco_Nav963

[brabus]

3 hours ago, Guardian said:

I wish that were the guard

It is in my corner at least, that sucks it's not in yours. Sounds like a leadership shuffle is in order. 

[Homestar]

53 minutes ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

You forgot to mention you're deployed hacking the mish right now as well... Worthy also of the "Leadership at the Deid" thread.

Are you saying that deployed squadrons are running green dot programs down range?

Edited December 26, 2017 by Homestar

[SocialD]

3 hours ago, Guardian said:

I wish that were the guard

Ehh...I guess it depends upon your leadership.  I can assure you, you will never see a pilot being a green dot facilitator in our squadron.  We have a MSgt, ops admin chick for that.  She also does A LOT of DTS, orders generation, and many other things that make our lives easier.  Pretty much worth her weight in gold.    

Edited December 26, 2017 by SocialD

[Duck]

Ehh...I guess it depends upon your leadership.  I can assure you, you will never see a pilot being a green dot facilitator in our squadron.  We have a MSgt, ops admin chick for that.  She also does A LOT of DTS, orders generation, and many other things that make our lives easier.  Pretty much worth her weight in gold.    

So how heavy are we talking here... buck-fity?

[08Dawg]

10 hours ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

You forgot to mention you're deployed hacking the mish right now as well... Worthy also of the "Leadership at the Deid" thread.

This was home station.  There are other tales worthy of "Leadership at the Deid" that I will share upon my parole...

[17D_guy]

13 hours ago, SocialD said:

 We have a MSgt, ops admin chick for that.  She also does A LOT of DTS, orders generation, and many other things that make our lives easier.  Pretty much worth her weight in gold.    

Always funny to me that we'd have junior cyber Amn crap on our admin troops when the admin bros/chicks do that above.  Getting CSS' back, and admin troops actually knowledgeable about ops/ops support is one of the best things the service has done to fix Skeletor's nonsense.

[General Chang]

On December 11, 2017 at 4:13 PM, FUSEPLUG said:

Where’s Chang?  I’d love to hear his opinion on this...

Ok, I'l be your huckleberry.

Look, there's a ton of blame to go around. The good news: we have a current CSAF & SecAF who "get it."  The bad news: layers of leadership between the CSAF & the common man simply will not break out of their stovepiped thinking.  CSAF: "Stop doing stuff that doesn't make sense."  Wg/CCs: "Until regs change, keep doing the stupid stuff."  For instance, despite the mandate from CSAF that Majors are 100% for the next 3-4 years, Wings are still required to produce narrative-only PRFs for guys going to schools.  Why?  "Because that's what the regs say."  Just one example of many where leaders can't think for themselves...JUST SAY NO!