What's wrong with the Air Force?

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Back in McCain's day, you could just draft people to fill the gaps.

The IPs at Corpus still chuckle to this day about him having to crash in the Corpus Christi Bay and almost drowning. I would have never heard about this happening if it weren't for those guys. And he didn't know his emergency procedures on his solo. Who needs to know that crap?

[YoungnDumb]

Don't mock too much, the AF eliminated that requirement for T-6 students

[Hunter Rose]

8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

They asked for $60k a year and were denied. John McCain thinks we get paid enough.

The McCain excuse is nearing an end, if not already there.  McCain had decades of service, but his time is at an end.

If the AF brass really wanted to push for more money for pilots, they could do it again.  McCain doesn't even vote anymore due to his illness.

The party line is still that a $35K pilot bonus is enough.  It will be interesting to see the take rates when they start coming out.  The will be abysmal and continue the trend of being lower than the previous year's take rate.  

[Homestar]

8 hours ago, MDDieselPilot said:

Ironic on his part.. inflation adjusted, we get paid less than he did to fly.

At least all of my flights have ended with me sleeping in either my own bed or a hotel. I’ve never stayed at Hilton that I wasn’t free to leave the next day. 

But yeah, he does seem to think we’re overpaid as it is.

 

[FourFans]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:41 PM, ihtfp06 said:

I’ve met some Army O-6s who probably couldn’t keep a job managing a Taco Bell, so the pay/job security probably keeps some in.

As one currently working with Big Green and International Green: I think you're right...and those guys are still head-and-should above some of their international cohorts.  I've seen several "leaders" here who couldn't hold down a job taking out the trash...anywhere...validated because I've witnessed them fail at that exact task...repeatedly.

Yes, it could be worse.

[HarleyQuinn]

Group exec submits two CGO packages for the Group. Other squadrons submit one package per unit. Group gets called out by awards board personnel. Group exec is triggered by my email. Email is fired off by Group exec saying the Gp/CC ultimately determines the winner for each category of packages. He said, "It's not fair these individuals at the Group have not been considered for any awards for a year. They don't have a squadron."

Why the hell are you wasting my time grading these packages if the Gp/CC can do whatever he wants? I got other crap I could be doing. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[FourFans]

7 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Group exec... 

Humble, compassionate, and un-selfish.  Clearly the man we want leading tomorrow's Air Force. 

"Streamlined Gp awards process; 69 manhours saved! Definitely Promote"

Edited July 11, 2018 by FourFans130

[panchbarnes]

Don't worry, GP execs won't be leading tomorrow's Air Force.

MAJCOM+ execs on the other hand...

[Guest]

The party line is still that a $35K pilot bonus is enough.  It will be interesting to see the take rates when they start coming out.  The will be abysmal and continue the trend of being lower than the previous year's take rate.  

The take rates are artificially high right now because for the bonus eligible year groups the past couple years, this wasn’t their first chance to leave AD. The take rates will truly be abysmal when the non VSP eligible year groups’ commitments are up (08 or 09?).

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

The take rates are artificially high right now because for the bonus eligible year groups the past couple years, this wasn’t their first chance to leave AD. The take rates will truly be abysmal when the non VSP eligible year groups’ commitments are up (08 or 09?).

I'll be curious to see how they report the take rates.  If they report them just as overall "percent who took the bonus", this year will have a significant spike because they retroactively included all the 12Xs that were left out of last years bonus.  Any 12X with an ADSC that expired prior to 2017 is now eligible for a bonus (if it doesn't take them past 24 YAS).  There's 4-6 years at $20K/year and 7-9 years at $25K/year, half up front.  Almost every older 12B I know is jumping all over it, taking the bonus that will get them right to 20, mostly because they all planned to retire anyway.  Among 12Bs in the B-1 community, those tiers (10 and 11, I think?) will have an almost 100% take rate because those guys (myself included) had already made the decision to stick around until retirement.

[FourFans]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

I'll be curious to see how they report the take rates.

Spoiler Alert: They'll spin and report it in whatever way most soften the fact that people are leaving.

[Hunter Rose]

The cynical part of me agrees that the expanded WSO bonus was just to make the "Aircrew" retention numbers look better.

However, at some point they still have to talk pilot numbers.  The messaging from SECAF/CSAF has repeatedly talked about a 2K pilot shortfall, not aircrew.  So reporting, "Hey Congress, bonus takers are up, our retention plan is working!" doesn't work because the pilot shortage is still 2K.

This next won't be popular, but the WSO takers are mostly guys who were going to 20 anyway as mentioned above.  It's also not like there is an equivalent lucrative civilian job like the airlines.  Personally I think the WSO bonus should have just been added onto the pilot bonus to make it a $60K pilot bonus.  You might actually get some pilots to stay for that money.  

An even better idea would be to just get rid of all these stupid bonus offers and just give pro pay like doctors.  Give an extra $3K a month to all aircrew as part of their pay.  That would go a lot further to making the entire crew force feel appreciated.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Hunter Rose

[Azimuth]

1 hour ago, FourFans130 said:

Spoiler Alert: They'll spin and report it in whatever way most soften the fact that people are leaving.

The Air Force propaganda machine looks like it dusted off Enron’s playbook.

”Don’t panic, everything is fine...”

[MDDieselPilot]

11 hours ago, Homestar said:

At least all of my flights have ended with me sleeping in either my own bed or a hotel. I’ve never stayed at Hilton that I wasn’t free to leave the next day. 

But yeah, he does seem to think we’re overpaid as it is.

 

True, but the unfortunate events that happened to him are a separate discussion from pay.

[Disco_Nav963]

51 minutes ago, Hunter Rose said:

This next won't be popular, but the WSO takers are mostly guys who were going to 20 anyway as mentioned above.  It's also not like there is an equivalent lucrative civilian job like the airlines.  Personally I think the WSO bonus should have just been added onto the pilot bonus to make it a $60K pilot bonus.  You might actually get some pilots to stay for that money.

There may not be an equivalent lucrative civilian job, but there's an equivalent lucrative military job called the Reserve and the Guard... And they were already paying a $35K/year AGR/ART bonus on 1-3 year contracts. The SecAF/CSAF messaging is what it is, and bomber WSO manning is not in the shithole fighter pilot manning is at, but it ain't pretty either. And while I absolutely could get behind a $60K pilot bonus, look at it from my perspective: My last year on active duty I ran the OSS Nuke shop through an NSI, STRATCOM Global Thunder exercise, and multiple nuke WSEPs, while also deploying to the Deid to run the OIR MPC. Obviously I cannot land the airplane or tell my A-Code what to do... But I can, and have (operationally), told two BUFF crews and two Mudhen crews what to do as a mission commander, and part of my job is train PILOTS (and WSOs and EWOs) to be mission commanders and mission leads etc etc. So why would I stay on active duty to make $60K less than my year group peer, mouth-breathing Major Chucklenuts with 50% fewer LOX quals who is at the gym by 3 and home by 5 every day, because he puts his right hand on eight throttles instead of one TGP track handle? [As it happens, I punched to the Reserves without that $60K differential... And I highly leaving active duty to anyone who's thinking about it.]

Bottom line: In multi-specialty aircraft, especially those where CSOs perform much of the mission itself and manage/lead/instruct across specialties, you are going to have a significant brain drain to the Guard and Reserve if you make the differential between Pilot and CSO pay just downright insulting. Obviously market economics (airlines) are going to favor pilots, but us non-pilots can only put up with so much when Big Blue is fucking all of us in the ass and only has enough common decency to give the pilots a reach-around—and there's a ready escape mechanism to a better lifestyle.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Disco_Nav963

[Seadogs]

Navs would get offended if pilots got bigger bonuses in the AF? 

[Hunter Rose]

4 hours ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

There may not be an equivalent lucrative civilian job, but there's an equivalent lucrative military job called the Reserve and the Guard... And they were already paying a $35K/year AGR/ART bonus on 1-3 year contracts. The SecAF/CSAF messaging is what it is, and bomber WSO manning is not in the shithole fighter pilot manning is at, but it ain't pretty either. And while I absolutely could get behind a $60K pilot bonus, look at it from my perspective: My last year on active duty I ran the OSS Nuke shop through an NSI, STRATCOM Global Thunder exercise, and multiple nuke WSEPs, while also deploying to the Deid to run the OIR MPC. Obviously I cannot land the airplane or tell my A-Code what to do... But I can, and have (operationally), told two BUFF crews and two Mudhen crews what to do as a mission commander, and part of my job is train PILOTS (and WSOs and EWOs) to be mission commanders and mission leads etc etc. So why would I stay on active duty to make $60K less than my year group peer, mouth-breathing Major Chucklenuts with 50% fewer LOX quals who is at the gym by 3 and home by 5 every day, because he puts his right hand on eight throttles instead of one TGP track handle? [As it happens, I punched to the Reserves without that $60K differential... And I highly leaving active duty to anyone who's thinking about it.]

Bottom line: In multi-specialty aircraft, especially those where CSOs perform much of the mission itself and manage/lead/instruct across specialties, you are going to have a significant brain drain to the Guard and Reserve if you make the differential between Pilot and CSO pay just downright insulting. Obviously market economics (airlines) are going to favor pilots, but us non-pilots can only put up with so much when Big Blue is ing all of us in the ass and only has enough common decency to give the pilots a reach-around—and there's a ready escape mechanism to a better lifestyle.

Whatever Nav...

I kid...I kid...😁

I've got no beef with WSO/CSOs getting extra compensation, I just don't think it's a very efficient use of funds that really help total force retention numbers.  WSOs/CSOs are leaving for the Reserve/Guard, so they are still serving in some capacity.  Pilots are leaving for the airlines, completely leaving the total force.

As I mentioned at the end of my post you quoted, I think they AF should get rid of bonuses and increase flight pay or offer pro pay like doctors.  The AF is offering chump change in bonus money.  If you're offering chump change and trying to retain people on the cheap, it would be more efficient to just eliminate bonuses altogether and institute aircrew professional pay or just up the flight pay.  Make flight pay at 10 years to $3K-4K for all aircrew or offer $2K-3K a month in pro pay at 10 years.

It would send a solid message that aircrew are valued, that leadership is attempting to actually retain people, and not really cost the AF much more than they currently have allocated. 

[pawnman]

On 7/11/2018 at 1:37 PM, Hunter Rose said:

Whatever Nav...

I kid...I kid...😁

I've got no beef with WSO/CSOs getting extra compensation, I just don't think it's a very efficient use of funds that really help total force retention numbers.  WSOs/CSOs are leaving for the Reserve/Guard, so they are still serving in some capacity.  Pilots are leaving for the airlines, completely leaving the total force.

As I mentioned at the end of my post you quoted, I think they AF should get rid of and increase flight pay or offer pro pay like doctors.  The AF is offering chump change in bonus money.  If you're offering chump change and trying to retain people on the cheap, it would be more efficient to just eliminate bonuses altogether and institute aircrew professional pay or just up the flight pay.  Make flight pay at 10 years to $3K-4K for all aircrew or offer $2K-3K a month in pro pay at 10 years.

It would send a solid message that aircrew are valued, that leadership is attempting to actually retain people, and not really cost the AF much more than they currently have allocated. 

The chump change appears to be working.  And handing it out as flight pay doesn't give the Air Force what it wants - predictability.  Almost every 12B I know in my community is taking the bonus at $25K/year, many for the full 9 years.  

The other thing to keep in mind is that all those 12X folks taking the bonus means a whole lot of 12X folks who can't 7-day opt a 365.  Which should help relieve some of the bleeding, if not all of it.  Any of the LAF taskers can be filled by a 12X just as easily as an 11X.

[HarleyQuinn]

Basically, I've seen specialists off base who disagree with our flight doctors. I've seen this happen 3 times now and I have lost a little faith in flight medicine. I have seen doctors and specialists off base completely disagree with flight doctors. Pretty sure I'm not the only one here.

I had surgery a few years ago. My surgeon called flight medicine to ensure the pharmacy would have my post op meds. Immediately after my surgery, I had my girlfriend drive me to the base in order to pickup my paperwork for quarters. I waited 2 hours and still didn't receive my meds. I told the airman at the pharmacy counter twice I was post op and the gauze was pretty easily to see on my neck. I fell asleep and still didn't have my meds so I went off base and had the prescription filled in 15 minutes. I was totally embarrassed in front of my girlfriend because she receives the best care through her company's insurance plan. Also, I was told someone at the pharmacy walked off the job that week creating total chaos. A CC I spoke with said this is becoming standard and I'm not the first so I just accepted it.

PCS to a new base. Had an issue that was misdiagnosed at the previous base. I was in pain on a scale of 10/10 at this point and on narcotics. The flight doctor sent me in for an MRI via referral management. After my open MRI, I felt dirty because the lady gave me a Panera Bread gift card. I told referral management not to use that place again! Luckily, my surgeon didn't accept the MRI images or results. He said I needed to have them done at a certain hospital because the place where I went MRI images would be too blurry and he hadn't even seen them. The report from the MRI said everything was negative. After having a closed MRI, my issue was pretty obvious to my surgeon when the images came back. I was battling the issue for years and flight medicine did not properly diagnose me. The flight doctor I helped is the one who got me to the right specialist. I had surgery a few weeks later and my problem is gone! Took 4 years bro!

When your quality of life and health care starts to suck. It's time to go. Med Groups are starting to mimic the VA model.

Do you guys feel as though our on base care is diminishing or is in decline?

 

[dream big]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Basically, I've seen specialists off base who disagree with our flight doctors. I've seen this happen 3 times now and I have lost a little faith in flight medicine. I have seen doctors and specialists off base completely disagree with flight doctors. Pretty sure I'm not the only one here.

I had surgery a few years ago. My surgeon called flight medicine to ensure the pharmacy would have my post op meds. Immediately after my surgery, I had my girlfriend drive me to the base in order to pickup my paperwork for quarters. I waited 2 hours and still didn't receive my meds. I told the airman at the pharmacy counter twice I was post op and the gauze was pretty easily to see on my neck. I fell asleep and still didn't have my meds so I went off base and had the prescription filled in 15 minutes. I was totally embarrassed in front of my girlfriend because she receives the best care through her company's insurance plan. Also, I was told someone at the pharmacy walked off the job that week creating total chaos. A CC I spoke with said this is becoming standard and I'm not the first so I just accepted it.

PCS to a new base. Had an issue that was misdiagnosed at the previous base. I was in pain on a scale of 10/10 at this point and on narcotics. The flight doctor sent me in for an MRI via referral management. After my open MRI, I felt dirty because the lady gave me a Panera Bread gift card. I told referral management not to use that place again! Luckily, my surgeon didn't accept the MRI images or results. He said I needed to have them done at a certain hospital because the place where I went MRI images would be too blurry and he hadn't even seen them. The report from the MRI said everything was negative. After having a closed MRI, my issue was pretty obvious to my surgeon when the images came back. I was battling the issue for years and flight medicine did not properly diagnose me. The flight doctor I helped is the one who got me to the right specialist. I had surgery a few weeks later and my problem is gone! Took 4 years bro!

When your quality of life and health care starts to suck. It's time to go. Med Groups are starting to mimic the VA model.

Do you guys feel as though our on base care is diminishing or is in decline?

 

Sounds like you went through such an ordeal.  Glad it got taken care of.  Med group Varies by base.  At my current base they are phenomenal and absolutely professional.  They get you in and out ASAP and work to keep you on flying status/ being able to work your job.  At my old base they were awful.  Constantly closed for some BS exercise or training.  PHAs were a full day event.  Paperwork constantly lost.  The med group even delayed a contingency deployment to provide hurricane relief because people didn’t have their shots - mind you this was to a location we went to all the time.  

Funny enough, the base CGOC was full of medical officers.  Seems like they had time for bake sales and “mentoring sessions” while their troops were providing grade D service.  

[HarleyQuinn]

5 hours ago, dream big said:

Sounds like you went through such an ordeal.  Glad it got taken care of.  Med group Varies by base.  At my current base they are phenomenal and absolutely professional.  They get you in and out ASAP and work to keep you on flying status/ being able to work your job.  At my old base they were awful.  Constantly closed for some BS exercise or training.  PHAs were a full day event.  Paperwork constantly lost.  The med group even delayed a contingency deployment to provide hurricane relief because people didn’t have their shots - mind you this was to a location we went to all the time.  

Funny enough, the base CGOC was full of medical officers.  Seems like they had time for bake sales and “mentoring sessions” while their troops were providing grade D service.  

I'm glad some bases have it good. My biggest complaint would be when medical information or referrals need to be faxed. "We faxed it sir, guess they never received it." How hard is it to fax, then call to ensure the paperwork was received? I don't understand why this is so hard.

Don't even get me started on the doc who thought a cyst was a pimple and tried to pop it. Thus causing an infection and a ton of pain. My dermatologist just shook his head. He used to be a flight doc back in the day.

Returned from a TDY with a knot on my arm. Called flight medicine. Can't see you for a week. Went to see my dermatologist and he was like WTF? This could have been an infection and killed you. Look at the size of the knot. I just shrugged my shoulders... flight medicine said...

Edited July 19, 2018 by HarleyQuinn

[raimius]

It's hit or miss.  We have one awesome flight doc, and one that asked me if I was a pilot during my PHA...I guess my medical records, seeing a flight doc, and the pilot wings weren't enough of a clue...

[HossHarris]

Having grown up a dependent, and then putting in my own 20 years....our medical support/service has declined exponentially. 

[HU&W]

Tricare South combines w/ Tricare East.  The only urgent care in our town was previously covered under South.  Couldn't get an appointment on base for an ear infection for my kid.  Lady on appt line said to take her to that clinic for urgent care.  Now tricare says it's my bill to pay because the clinic is categorized by Tricare East as 'immediate' instead of 'urgent'.   Called the clinic.  Billing clerk says they're trying to collect from hundreds of local tricare patients, most of whom are angry...

They just keep finding ways to chip away at benefits, especially the ones that mean the most to our dependents.

[ThreeHoler]

We have a similar problem. Wifey went to the urgent care that was given as in-network by the nurse advice line. Just got a bill Tricare won’t cover because they classified it as an “office visit.”