What's wrong with the Air Force?

[jazzdude]

Sounds like the key is inflexibility/lack of room to be free-thinking and problem solve. A few years ago when I had some direct interaction with AMD, they had zero interest in helping solve some real problems, the excuses abounded. The primary one that pissed me off was talking about how the crews wouldn’t be able to hack it...bullshit, i’d sat up front with several and had plenty of time to BS; the crews would have risen to the occasion and won...but AMD wasn’t in it to win it, they were there to make donuts and nothing else. As I think back to all my experiences with the MAF, it is very frustrating to think about all the good dudes who are held back by AMD, TACC, etc. 

AMD has some wiggle room, but generally what they carry is validated and prioritized by CENTCOM for movement.

Part of the problem is that many times either: your loggies have failed you (didn't build the requirement), or your unit hasn't communicated what you need to the loggies (bad requirements), or the loggies haven't communicated the business rules/what can be reasonable expected (bad communication).

All the services are guilty of this, but it seems to be worst with AFCENT because they seem to think "we own the cargo airlift, so we can do whatever with them."

Stuff can move very fast, it just has to be a real COCOM/CC priority, not just a service component or unit priority.

The biggest spear I have for the CAF is that their logistics is often an afterthought, and that it's unreasonable to expect you'll always be the top movement priority. This problem becomes even bigger if we were to get into a real shooting war with a near peer.

[Dapper Dan Man]

There’s also a significant portion of most MAF communities who want to do nothing more than ILS to a full stop and pad airline applications.

They [MAF leadership] don’t care at all about big Air Force things or the application and control of Air Power as an integrated warfighting force, or expertise in employment. Just do MAF things and you’ll lead one day.

The MAFs lack of integration with the rest of the USAF will be its demise

Quoted because it’s so accurate that it hurts.

Like Chuck said, it’s a guerrilla movement in the MAF to change this line of thinking, but it is a significant uphill battle. Personally, I don’t think we’ll see what “right” looks like until either enough of the current senior CGO’s or young FGO’s who are leading this movement are put into significant leadership positions to really drive the fight.

Or, AMC eventually fails hard enough in a non-AMC exercise (singling out Mobility Guardian because the MAJCOM will always find a way to debrief it through rose colored lenses) or op so that they are forced by the customers/the CAF/the AF/Joint leadership to change the way they look at things.



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[HuggyU2]

On 3/17/2020 at 11:13 PM, Springer said:

The Hondurans were transitioning from the F-86 to the A-37!

When I was a FAIP,  there were a few guys going through the T-37 portion of UPT and then heading back to their home in Honduras or El Salvador to fly the A-37.  

An airline pilot friend of mine went through San Salvador a year or so ago, and saw 3 of them sitting on the ramp.  Wiki says they are still flying 15 of them.  

There are two A-37's flying in North America, and a 3rd that will start flying later this year.  

Edited March 20, 2020 by HuggyU2

[Hacker]

2 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

An airline pilot friend of mine went through San Salvador a year or so ago, and saw 3 of them sitting on the ramp.  Wiki says they are still flying 15 of them. 

I heard from a bro who works at one of the adversary air contractors that his company spent last summer roaming through several Central and South American AF bases surveying the condition of numerous A-37s that were for sale.

Reportedly, most of them weren't airworthy or in nearly good enough condition to be made airworthy cost effectively.

[brabus]

10 hours ago, pawnman said:

I think you've got a rather rosy picture of the CAF.  We don't often crossflow people to other airplanes, but the best way to succeed in a CAF community is to leave the community for literally anything else - school, staff, white jets, ALO, one of those one-off jobs like SAM-1 at Red Flag.  Literally the best way to get promoted and become a commander is to spend less time in a combat squadron than your competition.

Not to say shiny pennies who spend too much time out of a combat sq don’t exist, but this has not even remotely been my experience in the fighter world, at least post TAMI. 

[dream big]

11 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

We’re working on it....

There won’t be a sea change overnight. The change will be generational. It’s a guerrilla war ongoing inside the MAF. Takes longer than you’d expect and there’s a lot of resistance - mostly by senior level and GS management. 

There’s also a significant portion of most MAF communities who want to do nothing more than ILS to a full stop and pad airline applications. Malaise can be contagious, especially when the economy is good.

Furthermore you have a significant portion of Star-wearing leadership (And this their minions as well) which values EXPOSURE over EXPERTISE. Note I didn’t say ‘experience’ over expertise. In the MAF they want you exposed to all things MAF - mile wide and inch deep. They don’t care at all about big Air Force things or the application and control of Air Power as an integrated warfighting force, or expertise in employment. Just do MAF things and you’ll lead one day.

Expertise is not valued as much as “MAF-exposure.“ 

The problem with that logic is that the CAF runs the Air Force. Literally the language of the service is that of the CAF. The vast majority of wings are CAF wings. The vast majority of GOs are CAF GOs. In the CAF when you show up in a new community, they wonder WTF is wrong with you that you got voted off the island. In the MAF if you become an expert, they scoff you for “only knowing one mission set.” It’s bizarre.

The MAF scoffed the CAF for years, only wanting to build their mobility empire in the cornfields of southern Illinois, but the reckoning is coming...

There’s a whole new service out there looking for another four-star, and there’s a lot of the staff function at both ACC and AMC getting gobbled up by the Air Staff... The MAFs lack of integration with the rest of the USAF will be its demise if we aren’t careful. That’s what many of us are working to fix, though that work and the results are seen by some as “un-MAF-like” endeavors....

Brought to you by your friendly (old) neighborhood Weapons Officer. 

Now... Get off my lawn, this grass is delicious.

Chuck

Spot on.  Also Mobility Guardian (both of them) apart from being the cluster fs they were is that they highlighted how far behind the MAF is in full spectrum / integrated warfare.  We can blame the Phoenix Reach mentality to some degree.  Nothing against airline hopefuls but nothing bothers me more as a WO than when I show to mission plan and guys are just flying the flagpole and like you said, ILS to a full stop; or the guys who min run their tactical flying and try to stay off station as much as possible.  This is a cancer in the MAF and sets the younger dudes up for failure and complacency.  
 

Yeah, and if big AMC can figure out our TDL capes instead of giving us off the shelf garbage, that might help as well. 

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Not to say shiny pennies who spend too much time out of a combat sq don’t exist, but this has not even remotely been my experience in the fighter world, at least post TAMI. 

He’s pretty spot on for GSC, which is half CAF half MAF monster in which we’re currently picking the worst traits of both to build culture 

[AC&W]

Yeah, and if big AMC can figure out our TDL capes instead of giving us off the shelf garbage, that might help as well. 

You can count on one hand the number of blue suiter TDL SMEs in the MAF, and they aren't at HQ.

[08Dawg]

23 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

He’s pretty spot on for GSC, which is half CAF half MAF monster in which we’re currently picking the worst traits of both to build culture 

I’d say it’s more a bastard child of ACC trying to live up to its grand pappy SAC but with a massive inferiority complex.  

Edited March 20, 2020 by 08Dawg

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, 08Dawg said:

I’d say it’s more a bastard child of ACC trying to live up to its grand pappy SAC but with a massive inferiority complex.  

I gave them the benefit of the doubt until they took Phoenix and turned it into Vista. Seems to be a program without a direction. Pathfinder even more so. Common theme of those? Not focused on having a tactically competent force. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by SurelySerious

[17D_guy]

On 3/19/2020 at 7:28 AM, jazzdude said:

Part of the problem is that many times either: your loggies have failed you (didn't build the requirement), or your unit hasn't communicated what you need to the loggies (bad requirements), or the loggies haven't communicated the business rules/what can be reasonable expected (bad communication).

All the services are guilty of this, but it seems to be worst with AFCENT because they seem to think "we own the cargo airlift, so we can do whatever with them."

Holy balls this is like dealing with CYBERCOM.  CYBERCOM - "We own you 24/7, and you need permission to do ADCON duties."  When we ask what we're supposed to do if we're not "operating" we get this:

O5-O9 - "Sprinkle some CyberOps over there."

Tactical/Ops Minion - "Yes sir, what's the effect you'd like?"

O5-O9 - "CyberOps?"

[Breckey]

I gave them the benefit of the doubt until they took Phoenix and turned it into Vista. Seems to be a program without a direction. Pathfinder even more so. Common theme of those? Not focused on having a tactically competent force. 

The Pathfinder program seems to produce personnel that are competent at being a general's aide.

[stuckindayton]

Question for the group.  I work at Wright-Patt where they fly people in from all over the country for IFC exams, tech training, flight doc training, etc.  So our exposure to Corona is a bit high.  Now they are telling us if we leave the local area (defined as the area between our home and work) we have to quarantine for 14 days before we're allowed back to work.  I've never experienced this before and it seems a bit illogical given that my highest risk for exposure is at work.  Has anyone else experienced this?  I understand the DoD can pretty much do what they want, but is this really legal?

[brabus]

12 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

Holy balls this is like dealing with CYBERCOM.  CYBERCOM - "We own you 24/7, and you need permission to do ADCON duties."  When we ask what we're supposed to do if we're not "operating" we get this:

O5-O9 - "Sprinkle some CyberOps over there."

Tactical/Ops Minion - "Yes sir, what's the effect you'd like?"

O5-O9 - "CyberOps?"

That’s Army 101, sorry “joint 101.” Inability to comprehend the idea of desired effect vs. emotional attachment to a specific platform/MDS/weapon. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by brabus

[FLEA]

16 minutes ago, stuckindayton said:

Question for the group.  I work at Wright-Patt where they fly people in from all over the country for IFC exams, tech training, flight doc training, etc.  So our exposure to Corona is a bit high.  Now they are telling us if we leave the local area (defined as the area between our home and work) we have to quarantine for 14 days before we're allowed back to work.  I've never experienced this before and it seems a bit illogical given that my highest risk for exposure is at work.  Has anyone else experienced this?  I understand the DoD can pretty much do what they want, but is this really legal?

In short, yes. If you are AD, the commander can lawfully order you to refrain from certain activities including travel. This is not normal and in 11 years in the military I've never seen it before to this scale. Usually curfews or temporary travel bans or night club bans are common, but this has been a bit extreme. I tell you this because undoubtebly this will pass and you will have a mostly normal life again at some point. But we are doing almost the same thing at our base. (Must remain within 1 hour of base). 

Edited March 21, 2020 by FLEA

[stuckindayton]

2 minutes ago, FLEA said:

In short, yes. If you are AD, the commander can lawfully order you to refrain from certain activities including travel. This is not normal and in 11 years in the military I've never seen it before to this scale. Usually curfews or temporary travel bans or night club bans are common, but this has been a bit extreme. I tell you this because undoubtebly this will pass and you will have a mostly normal life again at some point. But we are doing almost the same thing at our base. (Must remain within 1 hour of base). 

Thanks for the response.  I believe they are saying the policy applies to AD, civilians and contractors.  It's not that I'm personally opposed to the policy as I'm not leaving my house except to go to work and do the essential trips to stay alive (food, gas, alcohol).  I just thought it a bit draconian.

[daynightindicator]

Thanks for the response.  I believe they are saying the policy applies to AD, civilians and contractors.  It's not that I'm personally opposed to the policy as I'm not leaving my house except to go to work and do the essential trips to stay alive (food, gas, alcohol).  I just thought it a bit draconian.

Installation commander may restrict travel to AD folks at their discretion. The home/work commute verbiage is actually the AFI definition of local area.

My understanding (after working this at the unit level for the past week) is that leave travel of government civilians (GS employees) cannot be restricted, but *could* result in a situation where the individual is quarantined, and would not automatically be paid (individual could have to use personal leave/comp time, etc).

Contractors get their guidance from their companies, but installation commander could always restrict their base access.

Regular civilians (dependents, etc) are not subject to these rules but their actions could impact their sponsors (spouse travels to China, may result in quarantine for sponsor).

I learned a lot this week about all this and this is my best understanding.

Open for spears if anyone has other info. Crazy times indeed.

[stuckindayton]

33 minutes ago, daynightindicator said:

 

Installation commander may restrict travel to AD folks at their discretion. The home/work commute verbiage is actually the AFI definition of local area.

My understanding (after working this at the unit level for the past week) is that leave travel of government civilians (GS employees) cannot be restricted, but *could* result in a situation where the individual is quarantined, and would not automatically be paid (individual could have to use personal leave/comp time, etc).

Contractors get their guidance from their companies, but installation commander could always restrict their base access.

Regular civilians (dependents, etc) are not subject to these rules but their actions could impact their sponsors (spouse travels to China, may result in quarantine for sponsor).

I learned a lot this week about all this and this is my best understanding.

Open for spears if anyone has other info. Crazy times indeed.

 

Thanks.  I guess I just need to shut up and color.  I didn't agree with the policy, but it sound like we're keeping in step with Big Blue so I just need to accept it and move on.  Strange days indeed!

[SurelySerious]

11 minutes ago, stuckindayton said:

Thanks.  I guess I just need to shut up and color.  I didn't agree with the policy, but it sound like we're keeping in step with Big Blue so I just need to accept it and move on.  Strange days indeed!

It is definitely draconian. I just stumbled upon a tweet of (probably real) measures from 1918. It’s like a “can you spot the difference” exercise with what we are doing 100 years later. 

[stuckindayton]

Holy crap.  Who keeps copies of those things from 100+ years ago.

[SurelySerious]

15 minutes ago, stuckindayton said:

Holy crap.  Who keeps copies of those things from 100+ years ago.

College library. If it was like a personal account, it would be an obscure hobby that finally found its niche. 

[MC5Wes]

On 3/18/2020 at 2:23 AM, Springer said:

Nice! Panama?

Yes

I was at Howard from 84 to 90. Started out with a few O-2As and UH-1Ns. In 85 we got rid of those and got 20 OA-37Bs. 

 

After the Just Cause they gave away all of the aircraft. And closed the 24th TASS.

[FLEA]

https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/this-is-discrimination-germany-seeks-income-taxes-from-us-airman-because-he-s-married-to-local-woman-1.624553

The fact that his command isn't aggressively jumping in to protect him is really dissapointing to me. Having been stationed in Germany, I don't feel like the German government strongly appreciates our presence and we'd be better off moving our larger bases and hubs to Poland. 

[JTsundevil]

https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/this-is-discrimination-germany-seeks-income-taxes-from-us-airman-because-he-s-married-to-local-woman-1.624553
The fact that his command isn't aggressively jumping in to protect him is really dissapointing to me. Having been stationed in Germany, I don't feel like the German government strongly appreciates our presence and we'd be better off moving our larger bases and hubs to Poland. 

Look at the Navy to see what happens to leaders who stand up for their people...


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[arg]

On 3/17/2020 at 5:15 PM, MC5Wes said:

OA-37B My favorite aircraft to work on.

Where is this picture from? It's not Howard. Looks like someone is going to tear up some shit with BDU33s.