What's wrong with the Air Force?

[brabus]

4 hours ago, CharlieHotel47 said:

ANG

Remind that dipshit this is the guard - we don’t subscribe to dumbassery like the AD. Go do something productive and mission enhancing sergeant.  

[08Dawg]

Doesn’t a shirt have more important things to worry about, like taking care of Airmen?

”Roger” or “noted” are appropriate responses to any bullshit from someone like that. 

[dream big]

36 minutes ago, 08Dawg said:

Doesn’t a shirt have more important things to worry about, like taking care of Airmen?

”Roger” or “noted” are appropriate responses to any bullshit from someone like that. 

When Shirts and Chiefs are on about uniform standards, my assumption is that everything else in the unit including the morale and welfare of the troops is running swimmingly. If that’s not the case, those Shirts and Chiefs should lean forward and choke themselves. 

[HossHarris]

Remember, they’re enlisted and you’re an officer. 
 

every time they speak to you, task them with some trivial bullshit. Bring me the results of the last dorm inspection? How many CE Tickets are still open on the ops building? How about the dorms?  I think the track is a few meters short, go measure it. Get me the names of every crew chief that grew up in Texas.  The more tedious and vaguely personnel related the better. 
 

they’ll leave you the fuck alone when they realize every interaction comes with homework. 

[ViperMan]

9 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

Doesn’t a shirt have more important things to worry about, like taking care of Airmen?

”Roger” or “noted” are appropriate responses to any bullshit from someone like that. 

I prefer something more along these lines.

 

[08Dawg]

Which brings me to another “wrong with the AF” point… we’ve got this ingrained cultural problem where a certain sect of SNCOs feel empowered to and expect that they can just run over captains, majors, and even lieutenant colonels.  I call it “excessive professional deference”. Sure, you’ve been in longer and I respect your technical competence, but the last time I checked, an O-3 or O-4 still outranks an E-7, 8, or 9. Don’t like it?  Tough shit, MSgt…go to OTS and get a commission. 

[SurelySerious]

Which brings me to another “wrong with the AF” point… we’ve got this ingrained cultural problem where a certain sect of SNCOs feel empowered to and expect that they can just run over captains, majors, and even lieutenant colonels.  I call it “excessive professional deference”. Sure, you’ve been in longer and I respect your technical competence, but the last time I checked, an O-3 or O-4 still outranks an E-7, 8, or 9. Don’t like it?  Tough shit, MSgt…go to OTS and get a commission. 

And if we’re really honest sometimes it’s technical and strategic incompetence, but I digress. True story, you want the authority and responsibility then you go commission.

[Sua Sponte]

17 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

Which brings me to another “wrong with the AF” point… we’ve got this ingrained cultural problem where a certain sect of SNCOs feel empowered to and expect that they can just run over captains, majors, and even lieutenant colonels.  I call it “excessive professional deference”. Sure, you’ve been in longer and I respect your technical competence, but the last time I checked, an O-3 or O-4 still outranks an E-7, 8, or 9. Don’t like it?  Tough shit, MSgt…go to OTS and get a commission. 

Blame the commanders that enable this behavior.

[SocialD]

25 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Blame the commanders that enable this behavior.

 

I blame the CC's, but I also blame officers who allow these types of acts to go unchecked.  You're an officer, don't be afraid to act like it.  Just don't be a dick and be right.  On the spot correction are powerful and can quickly straighten up any culture of lax good order/discipline.  In 22 years of enlisted and officer service, outside of some punishment I had to hand out as a CC, I can only remember two situation that rose to the level of "get in this office and shut the door," type corrections.  Both situations were as a Captain and Major, and I never heard a thing about them again, and more importantly, they worked. 

[Sua Sponte]

4 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

I blame the CC's, but I also blame officers who allow these types of acts to go unchecked.  You're an officer, don't be afraid to act like it.  Just don't be a dick and be right.  On the spot correction are powerful and can quickly straighten up any culture of lax good order/discipline.  In 22 years of enlisted and officer service, outside of some punishment I had to hand out as a CC, I can only remember two situation that rose to the level of "get in this office and shut the door," type corrections.  Both situations were as a Captain and Major, and I never heard a thing about them again, and more importantly, they worked. 

Aren’t you a Guard/Reserve Baby? If so, vastly different than being active duty. 

[brabus]

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

Aren’t you a Guard/Reserve Baby? If so, vastly different than being active duty. 

Only once on AD (as a Capt) did I have to do a closed door correction on a SNCO. Never had any negative reactions from it. As SocialD said, don’t be an asshole, but as an officer, grow a fucking pair and act like it (and don’t be wrong when you have to do it).

[Lord Ratner]

I found it easier to just pretend you had no idea the rule existed, or that you forgot. Playing dumb was a surprisingly powerful tool in an organization where the entire officer system was predicated on the officers voluntarily pushing themselves to the limit on the hopes of securing promotions. 

 

And in Bagram, my missing reflective belt was always wherever I was going. I kept one at the squadron and one in my room for the rare time an SNCO wanted to call my bluff and follow me to the destination. Drove them bonkers. 

[M2]

On 12/20/2024 at 2:07 PM, 08Dawg said:

Which brings me to another “wrong with the AF” point… we’ve got this ingrained cultural problem where a certain sect of SNCOs feel empowered to and expect that they can just run over captains, majors, and even lieutenant colonels.  I call it “excessive professional deference”. Sure, you’ve been in longer and I respect your technical competence, but the last time I checked, an O-3 or O-4 still outranks an E-7, 8, or 9. Don’t like it?  Tough shit, MSgt…go to OTS and get a commission. 

Not just in the USAF...

[HuggyU2]

22 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

... an SNCO wanted to call my bluff and follow me to the destination. 

Probably the same one that called us out for not standing at attention... and basically ignoring... the Afghan Anthem being played. 

[Sua Sponte]

On 12/19/2024 at 10:26 PM, brabus said:

Remind that dipshit this is the guard - we don’t subscribe to dumbassery like the AD. Go do something productive and mission enhancing sergeant.  

Uhhh, that largely depends on the Guard unit.

[brabus]

55 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Uhhh, that largely depends on the Guard unit.

Yeah I’m sure it does, but it’s still a valid point nonetheless. I loathe people who try to make the guard more like AD.

[tac airlifter]

On 12/21/2024 at 1:35 PM, Sua Sponte said:

Aren’t you a Guard/Reserve Baby? If so, vastly different than being active duty. 

I was AD and as a Capt I close-door squared away an out of control SNCO.  No repercussions to me.  And even had there been, good.  Embrace it.

Too many officers use fear of “the system” to excuse their own weak behavior.  We’re warriors facing death, dealing violence and inspiring others to follow.  Grow up and embrace your potential is my advice to officers shying from confrontation for fear of reaction within their chain of command.  Do the right thing for the right reason, or at least be able to spin it that way!  Men of action shouldn’t live in fear.  Doing so is a choice.  Choose differently.  

Edited December 24, 2024 by tac airlifter

[pbar]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

I was AD and as a Capt I close-door squared away an out of control SNCO.  No repercussions to me.  And even had there been, good.  Embrace it.

Too many officers use fear of “the system” to excuse their own weak behavior.  We’re warriors facing death, dealing violence and inspiring others to follow.  Grow up and embrace your potential is my advice to officers shying from confrontation for fear of reaction within their chain of command.  Do the right thing for the right reason, or at least be able to spin it that way!  Men of action shouldn’t live in fear.  Doing so is a choice.  Choose differently.  

There is definitely a difference between moral courage (which is lacking it seems) and physical courage (we don't seem to be short of this) as you point out. 

[lloyd christmas]

A lot of officer perspective here.  I’m not in any way excusing the behavior of out of control SNCOs.  I can’t stand it either and I have to work constantly to squash it in my orbit.

I would add context though.  SNCOs are stuck in the middle.  On one hand, they have to deal with immature, hard to communicate with, uneducated and honestly weird junior airmen.  They are doing their best to motivate them, lead them and accomplish the mission.  Correcting the small stuff is often necessary to keep younger troops in line.  If you don’t, they will take advantage of you.  It’s like parenting.  It is extremely challenging.  On the other hand, they must answer to officers.  Some officers have fun getting under the skin of SNCOs.  See @HossHarris post above.  That is literally the worst advice I’ve ever read in dealing with a SNCO.  Especially, a competent one.  Relationships are built on trust and respect.  It goes both ways.  

If you want to have success dealing with someone who is correcting your socks or asking where your reflective belt is, then sit down privately and talk to them.  Ask them why they perceive whatever they’re doing as a priority.  You may be surprised by their answer.  And you’ll be able to speak to your perspective as well.  You’ll probably find there was no reason to “not be afraid to be an officer” or “pretend you didn’t know a rule existed”.  You just didn’t have the complete story.  If you find that a NCO or SNCO was directed to prioritize something ridiculous, then chase that lead down and have a convo with commanders or other senior leaders to get their perspective.  That is how blind spots are exposed allowing them to be corrected.  

Just the thoughts of an old crusty SNCO.  

[ViperMan]

Honestly, I don't see a big problem with the SNCO corps. I think the mass of our problems are concentrated in the junior enlisted noner / shoe house. I can't tell you how often I run into pure ambivalence about not knowing how to do their job, and their mid-level managers (E-5 through E-7) being accepting of this lack of knowledge / competency. Pick your support field. It's all of them.

Your one-off Chief policing reflective belts or the length of time you spend in a deployed shower are honestly just pure fun from my perspective. They're the spice of life.

[Majestik Møøse]

30 minutes ago, lloyd christmas said:

A lot of officer perspective here.  I’m not in any way excusing the behavior of out of control SNCOs.  I can’t stand it either and I have to work constantly to squash it in my orbit.

I would add context though.  SNCOs are stuck in the middle.  On one hand, they have to deal with immature, hard to communicate with, uneducated and honestly weird junior airmen.  They are doing their best to motivate them, lead them and accomplish the mission.  Correcting the small stuff is often necessary to keep younger troops in line.  If you don’t, they will take advantage of you.  It’s like parenting.  It is extremely challenging.  On the other hand, they must answer to officers.  Some officers have fun getting under the skin of SNCOs.  See @HossHarris post above.  That is literally the worst advice I’ve ever read in dealing with a SNCO.  Especially, a competent one.  Relationships are built on trust and respect.  It goes both ways.  

If you want to have success dealing with someone who is correcting your socks or asking where your reflective belt is, then sit down privately and talk to them.  Ask them why they perceive whatever they’re doing as a priority.  You may be surprised by their answer.  And you’ll be able to speak to your perspective as well.  You’ll probably find there was no reason to “not be afraid to be an officer” or “pretend you didn’t know a rule existed”.  You just didn’t have the complete story.  If you find that a NCO or SNCO was directed to prioritize something ridiculous, then chase that lead down and have a convo with commanders or other senior leaders to get their perspective.  That is how blind spots are exposed allowing them to be corrected.  

Just the thoughts of an old crusty SNCO.  

A lot of guys also don’t realize how important it is to keep the younger enlisted disciplined. “How can I trust you to fix a plane correctly if you can’t maintain other standards”…is kinda the truth for an 18 year old. A 32yo Major with 10 years of experience dynamically employing jets can (usually) be trusted to use judgment about what rules are actually important, but the revolving door of inexperienced 2-stripers working on your oil and hydro fittings maybe not as much.

Going from a flying squadron to one that’s 90% enlisted like an OSS is eye-opening; even if it’s full of highly qualified jobs like ATC there are non-stop disciplinary issues. “Do you want an airman that has a trend of not maintaining standards working ATC?” No…no I don’t.

[ViperMan]

4 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

“How can I trust you to fix a plane correctly if you can’t maintain other standards”…is kinda the truth for an 18 year old. A 32yo Major with 10 years of experience dynamically employing jets can (usually) be trusted to use judgment about what rules are actually important, but the revolving door of inexperienced 2-stripers working on your oil and hydro fittings maybe not as much.

I agree with this in theory, and it is true if you assume everyone is a mature adult, but I will say that in my experience, there is only one type of actual leadership, and it's leadership by example. All the other ones espoused in our AF trainings (inspirational, transformational, etc.) are all bullshit. Thus, it makes it hard to enforce a standard on someone if you're not adhering to it yourself.

[HossHarris]

13 hours ago, lloyd christmas said:

A lot of officer perspective here.  I’m not in any way excusing the behavior of out of control SNCOs.  I can’t stand it either and I have to work constantly to squash it in my orbit.

I would add context though.  SNCOs are stuck in the middle.  On one hand, they have to deal with immature, hard to communicate with, uneducated and honestly weird junior airmen.  They are doing their best to motivate them, lead them and accomplish the mission.  Correcting the small stuff is often necessary to keep younger troops in line.  If you don’t, they will take advantage of you.  It’s like parenting.  It is extremely challenging.  On the other hand, they must answer to officers.  Some officers have fun getting under the skin of SNCOs.  See @HossHarris post above.  That is literally the worst advice I’ve ever read in dealing with a SNCO.  Especially, a competent one.  Relationships are built on trust and respect.  It goes both ways.  

If you want to have success dealing with someone who is correcting your socks or asking where your reflective belt is, then sit down privately and talk to them.  Ask them why they perceive whatever they’re doing as a priority.  You may be surprised by their answer.  And you’ll be able to speak to your perspective as well.  You’ll probably find there was no reason to “not be afraid to be an officer” or “pretend you didn’t know a rule existed”.  You just didn’t have the complete story.  If you find that a NCO or SNCO was directed to prioritize something ridiculous, then chase that lead down and have a convo with commanders or other senior leaders to get their perspective.  That is how blind spots are exposed allowing them to be corrected.  

Just the thoughts of an old crusty SNCO.  

The competent SNCOs are never the ones being a pain in the dick …

[OL Patch]

Haven’t posted in 4 years….still a lot wrong with the AF and CAF (carnivores for the youngins).  ClearedHot, Huggy, Hoss, M2……anyone know if Rainman is doing well.  Happy New Year!

Edited December 29, 2024 by OL Patch

[disgruntledemployee]

14 hours ago, HossHarris said:

The competent SNCOs are never the ones being a pain in the dick …

Quite true.  On a deployment, my guys and MX SNCOs had an outstanding working relationship, all in the name of gittin it done.  I don't think qweepy shit was ever mentioned between us.

Years ago in another unit, we had a class 1 drama queen SMSgt.  Talk about dramatics.  I once drew a 9 and showed it as a score card.  We later spoke in private.  The mental structure this guy built in his head of how a military organization should operate was such that I hoped he never made chief.

Overall, someone along the way helped mold the examples above and I do hope there are more of the top paragraph than the other.