What's wrong with the Air Force?

[hindsight2020]

2 minutes ago, MechGov said:

Sorta related to both the bonus thread and the promotion/PRF thread, but what could the AF do for non-command track dudes to incentivize performance in the second half of your career? It seems like the HPOs have their trajectory pretty much setup for success. Reading the other few threads, the bonus isn’t enough to offset the asspain that is AD, or those that take the blood money are hoping to stay at the unit until retirement.

Due to the close proximity I've had to endure with AD due to the TFI boondoggle, AD leadership always left me with the distinct impression they always found the Guard/Reserve the organic answer to what you're asking about. One OG pretty much said it in mixed company on a step bus: "we already have the technician track...it's called the Guard/Reserve". Can't say I was surprised to hear that from him, but I suppose I appreciated his honesty in the way he felt, especially in mixed company.

To be fair to the guy, that's how we've been manning my last two squadrons. Hordes of carbon copy twice passed over O-4s with airline hopes, zero intentions of doing leadership/management work, and varying levels of interest in attaining an AD retirement in the Reserves. Only problem with that trend has been an increasing willingness on the part of the gallery to accept the AD lifestyle encroachment into the Reserves, but that's more relevant to a  "what's wrong with the Air Force Reserves" thread. I digress.

In short, no I really don't think the AD AF is legitimately interested in addressing your grievance. They may still not acknowledge it as one in the first place, even in this environment. They're certainly not going to address it with soft pay (aka non-monetary QOL incentives). That's anathema to the Active Duty Social Contract (ADSC for short lol). Massa never barters with his human property, as a matter of principle. 

This is like a commuting vs living in domicile question to me. Might as well be talking about two entirely different jobs. Are you an officer that happens to be a pilot as your retention shtick, or are you a pilot who happens to be an officer as your retention shtick? If the former, yeah 20 years potato. If the latter, perhaps this is ultimately a 10/10 hi-lo mix career of full time and part time work after all. To each their own. 

 

[FLEA]

5 hours ago, MechGov said:

Sorta related to both the bonus thread and the promotion/PRF thread, but what could the AF do for non-command track dudes to incentivize performance in the second half of your career? It seems like the HPOs have their trajectory pretty much setup for success. Reading the other few threads, the bonus isn’t enough to offset the asspain that is AD, or those that take the blood money are hoping to stay at the unit until retirement.

This is the point I was trying to make in the bonus thread. After 13 YOS, you are in your mid 30s, prime of your working life, and your civilian counterparts are at the apex of their development. The AF though cannot offer a meaningful answer to how they will incentivize the 90% of folks who won't command and since the bonus is flat rate, you are pretty much leveling off as soon as you pin on Lt Col. 

I think the AF should honestly look at a stair stepping bonus that starts at maybe 25K for 2 years but cam then be renewed in 2 year increments for 10K more each time, netting you 55-65 you last 2 years depending when you were elligible. 

If they don't solve this though (and it's a combination of a development and a pay issue) then I don't see retention getting better because as I continue to find out how marketable I am outside the AF the appeal to stay in an organization that decides it's pretty much done with me is gone.

Edited April 5, 2019 by FLEA

[brabus]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

The AF though cannot offer a meaningful answer to how they will incentivize the 90% of folks who won't command

The AF can't incentivize the folks who will command if they stay, that's how fucked they are.

[MechGov]

The AF can't incentivize the folks who will command if they stay, that's how ed they are.

Wow.

Yet I don’t entirely disagree. Big Blue seems to think putting “will command” or something similar on an OPR is the magical bullet to entice retention. However, the number of command pushes I’ve seen on OPRs has to exceed the number of available command billets.

Granted I’ve figured out I’m in the bottom 90% somewhere, so not my problem...

[Tunes3]

I asked this exact question to my leadership last year after the MAF Roadshow.  All the A1K folks would talk about were the “on ramps” but had zero to say about the 80-90% of folks that weren’t going to be HPOs.  The AF NEEDS to figure out how to acknowledge the Average Joe or retention will continue to plummet.

[Warrior]

I asked this exact question to my leadership last year after the MAF Roadshow.  All the A1K folks would talk about were the “on ramps” but had zero to say about the 80-90% of folks that weren’t going to be HPOs.  The AF NEEDS to figure out how to acknowledge the Average Joe or retention will continue to plummet.

Nah, they’ll just further obfuscate who’s in the top 10% like they’ve done by not identifying school selects at the O-4 board. The longer the machine can make people think they’re in the top tier the longer people will try to be in the top tier.

[brabus]

3 hours ago, Tunes3 said:

The AF NEEDS to figure out how to acknowledge the Average Joe or retention will continue to plummet

Agreed that’s a CF, but not the RC of the retention problem. HPOs are leaving in droves as well. 

[ThreeHoler]

I asked this exact question to my leadership last year after the MAF Roadshow.  All the A1K folks would talk about were the “on ramps” but had zero to say about the 80-90% of folks that weren’t going to be HPOs.  The AF NEEDS to figure out how to acknowledge the Average Joe or retention will continue to plummet.

And you expected something different from the people who manage only HPOs?

[Majestik Møøse]

3 hours ago, Tunes3 said:

I asked this exact question to my leadership last year after the MAF Roadshow.  All the A1K folks would talk about were the “on ramps” but had zero to say about the 80-90% of folks that weren’t going to be HPOs.  The AF NEEDS to figure out how to acknowledge the Average Joe or retention will continue to plummet.

Calling an O-4/5 line IP an Average Joe is why the enlisted hate us, just saying.

[ThreeHoler]

Ditch the rank...Capt is where you top out...but make flight pay compensate for the extra pay normally associated with rank. The Canucks do it and it works pretty darn good for them.


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[Guest]

Ditch the rank...Capt is where you top out...but make flight pay compensate for the extra pay normally associated with rank. The Canucks do it and it works pretty darn good for them.


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What rank do their maintenance, logistics, intel, sf etc officers top out at?


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[ThreeHoler]

What rank do their maintenance, logistics, intel, sf etc officers top out at?


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Captain unless they are actively pursuing “leadership” roles. But they have far fewer non-flying officers.

[MechGov]

Nah, they’ll just further obfuscate who’s in the top 10% like they’ve done by not identifying school selects at the O-4 board. The longer the machine can make people think they’re in the top tier the longer people will try to be in the top tier.

This

[AC&W]

Ditch the rank...Capt is where you top out...but make flight pay compensate for the extra pay normally associated with rank. The Canucks do it and it works pretty darn good for them.


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They do this similarly on the E side as well. A 30 year SSgt is a master at blocking the BS.

[Tyking]

Hey guys, I'm currently enlisted AF. I'm finishing up my bachelors now. My question is, is it even worth it becoming a AF pilot or should I go another branch? With everything posted on this thread it seems as if going active duty AF pilot is not the way to go. I know there's Guard/Reserves, but i want to stay active duty. I am very interested in Naval Aviation, I'm open to both Navy and Marines. I have a wife and a kid, and my contract is up in February 2020 and I'm only 23; so i have a lot of big decisions to make. I really want to continue to serve especially as a Military pilot, but it seems that being an Air force pilot is not so hot right now. Any of you guys have some advice on the matter? Air force pilot vs Naval Aviator? And if you could do it all over again would you go to a different branch? 

[MechGov]

And if you could do it all over again would you go to a different branch? 

Hell no, I would do it again tomorrow. There’s a lot of sport bitching from mid-career types like me, not in small part because the AF trained us to do a job that pays very well to do a quarter of the work on the outside.

I wouldn’t trade having been an Air Force pilot for anything.

Now if landing on boats is your thing and you feel compelled to do Naval aviation, have at it Hoss. But I’m willing to bet a few beers that the grass is no greener on that side either.

[Guest]

Hey guys, I'm currently enlisted AF. I'm finishing up my bachelors now. My question is, is it even worth it becoming a AF pilot or should I go another branch? With everything posted on this thread it seems as if going active duty AF pilot is not the way to go. I know there's Guard/Reserves, but i want to stay active duty. I am very interested in Naval Aviation, I'm open to both Navy and Marines. I have a wife and a kid, and my contract is up in February 2020 and I'm only 23; so i have a lot of big decisions to make. I really want to continue to serve especially as a Military pilot, but it seems that being an Air force pilot is not so hot right now. Any of you guys have some advice on the matter? Air force pilot vs Naval Aviator? And if you could do it all over again would you go to a different branch? 

If you want to be a career pilot, and ANG and the Reserves aren’t for you, than AD AF is probably your best bet. That said, why do you not want to pursue an ANG or Reserves career? Full time, either AGR or ART is an option.


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[nunya]

If you're going to fly, stay AF.  The aviation grass isn't greener in other services.  Except maybe CG, but they have their own issues.

[Tyking]

6 minutes ago, ihtfp06 said:

If you want to be a career pilot, and ANG and the Reserves aren’t for you, than AD AF is probably your best bet. That said, why do you not want to pursue an ANG or Reserves career? Full time, either AGR or ART is an option.


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Thanks for the reply! I have thought about the gaurd and reserve. However, my family and I don’t really like the uncertainty that the gaurd/reserve can bring. I like the all or nothing aspect that active duty gives. Plus I’m a F-15 crew chief by trade, so with that being said I want to fly fighters. I want to have a fair shot of flying fighters through my preformace at flight school; not by if a unit likes me or not.

[BFM this]

23 minutes ago, Tyking said:

my family and I don’t really like the uncertainty that the gaurd/reserve can bring. I like the all or nothing aspect that active duty gives. 

Someone has not been paying attention.

[Sprkt69]

26 minutes ago, Tyking said:

Thanks for the reply! I have thought about the gaurd and reserve. However, my family and I don’t really like the uncertainty that the gaurd/reserve can bring. I like the all or nothing aspect that active duty gives. Plus I’m a F-15 crew chief by trade, so with that being said I want to fly fighters. I want to have a fair shot of flying fighters through my preformace at flight school; not by if a unit likes me or not.

Can you elaborate on this uncertainty?

[Tyking]

Just now, Sprkt69 said:

Can you elaborate on this uncertainty?

We’ll from my understanding is, after upt and doing you assigned aircraft training before heading back to your unit; you are given a certain amount of active duty orders from your perspective guard/reserve unit for seasoning. Then after that it’s up in the air if you can stay on those orders or have to find a full time job. For me I want my job to be a pilot and and officer full time. I don’t want to have to find another job while in the Air Force. Now Obviously there is a lot of uncertainty with active duty, I know I’m active duty, however I don’t have to worry about having to get another job, I can just do what the Air Force has trained me for, plus all the other additional duties they give me but it comes with the territory and I’m fine with that.

[JeremiahWeed]

1 hour ago, Tyking said:

 Then after that it’s up in the air if you can stay on those orders or have to find a full time job.

This is highly situation dependent.  First, it is possible to interview with a Guard unit and stipulate that you're looking for a full-time position.  If they don't have one available, then you opt to go elsewhere.  If they want you badly enough, they may do some horse trading.  Second, considering the airlines are scooping up just about every able-bodied military pilot they can get their hands on, the competition for full-time positions in the Guard may not be the feeding frenzy you think it is.

Of course, YMMV depending on the units you're rushing, their manning and a myriad of other factors.  But, I wouldn't just assume that locking in a full-time spot is out of the question. 

[Tyking]

2 minutes ago, JeremiahWeed said:

This is highly situation dependent.  First, it is possible to interview with a Guard unit and stipulate that you're looking for a full-time position.  If they don't have one available, then you opt to go elsewhere.  If they want you badly enough, they may do some horse trading.  Second, considering the airlines are scooping up just about every able-bodied military pilot they can get their hands on, the competition for full-time positions in the Guard may not be the feeding frenzy you think it is.

Of course, YMMV depending on the units you're rushing, their manning and a myriad of other factors.  But, I wouldn't just assume that locking in a full-time spot is out of the question. 

Yea, I’ll definitely look into the guard/reserves more. If I could find a unit that guarantees me a full time position; that would be ideal, since my family and I wouldn’t have to move around a bunch. However, I am leaning towards active duty a bit more.

[Majestik Møøse]

Tyking, don’t take the sport bitching on this thread as an absolute measure of what being an Air Force pilot is like. It really is the best damned job in the world, we’re just all pissed because a handful of doucher bureaucrats continuously do their damndest to ruin it. That constant fight wears people down, the airlines look like a relief with all the money for nothing angle, so every indiscretion seems like the world is ending. “No morale patches! Fucking hell, the good old days are gone!” “Wait, now the CSAF is doing mustache March? That’s it, I’m shaving it off and heading to Delta!” Which they have the option to do of course, because they’re an Air Force pilot.

Guard, Reserves, AD; you can’t really fuck this up. As long as you fly well, work hard, and be a bro, you’ll be fine. Just don’t join the Navy.