What's wrong with the Air Force?

[tac airlifter]

49 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Ordinary citizens aren't mandated to get the vaccine. 

Right.. unless they wanted to work a normal job, or travel to a big city, or visit their kids in school, or see their dying father in hospice, or take a cruise, or visit the doctor, or apply to college, etc.

Democrats mandated this ineffective vaccine and colluded with big tech to censor scientific questions.  I took it when ordered to and don’t like it but am not complaining; just like anthrax and all the other shit, it’s the cost of my chosen profession.  Copy.

 I am complaining about my wife being forced to take it or be fired from her teaching job, and I am complaining that the hospital wouldn’t let my unvaxed son visit his grandad one last time before I pulled life support.  Utter disgrace what was forced on this country, and disingenuous for anyone to pretend it wasn’t a democrat mandate.

ETA: it’s gotten better now, especially in FL.  But things went full retard for 2 years and democrats should be held accountable.

Edited October 14, 2022 by tac airlifter

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Ordinary citizens aren't mandated to get the vaccine. 

Absolute HORSESHIT!

The government mandated all civilian employees get the vaccine.

The government mandated all employees of any company that has a government contract get the vaccine.

It is one thing to force military members to get an experimental vaccine in the name of national defense and readiness, quite another force civilians and loosely related contractors.  This was an enormous over-reach by some power hungry extremists.

[Lawman]

I still fail to understand the mandate outrage from military members. The military can literally order you on an ALR-extreme suicide mission in some bullshit war halfway around the world. Of course they don't have your best interests at heart.  The military can mandate things about your fitness, alcohol consumption, drug use, grooming standards, and they can even put you in jail for things that are perfectly legal in the civilian world. 
 
And you signed up for it. No one made you. So if they need you to be vaxxed so the rotator doesnt get held up by a customs shitshow at your deployed location.. tough cookies.
Do I think the mandates did anything? No. Do I trust the government or big pharma? Also No. 
Do I think the vaccine risks are zero? Also no.
But the military mandated it for a multitude of reasons, some bad and some less bad.  And in the grand scheme of things a 84% increase in a 0.01% chance of maybe getting myocarditis doesn't even register on the scale of things that are actual health dangers.  Id believe the "my body is a temple" argument a lot more if it weren't for the bro-science pre-workout powder, twice-a-year cardio regimen, 7 shots at roll call, 3 monsters, and a pack of zyns per day.  Because I promise all of those things are far worse for your heart. 

So…. Morale and the wiling support of your Sol… excuse me, Airmen isn’t just some farcical concept, it’s an expendable item no different than fuel, or parts on hand, etc.

The sooner leadership realizes that pissing away general moral for their own victories in “see I made an order and they followed it!” The better.

The military can absolutely order all of us to do a lot of things, some of them stupid/pointless and some of them even lethal in consequence. It could by the very construct of lawful orders also institute draconian curfews and restrict all the personnel to base/post if the leadership really wanted to. We saw a lot of that kind of dumb “I can do this so I will” kind of actions when you had divisional commanders make policy like no you can’t go to a restaurant regardless of vaccination because I said so. We are only know between bad ideas and cover their ass policies understanding that dumb ideas like that are a lousy hill to chose to die on in an organization that disbanded flogging and summery executions long ago so yeah in a lot of ways you issue orders and they obey an oath. That is because the expectation those issued orders are followed is a form of capital (ie morale and support) that is finite. Yes men and women will charge up that hill or go in that no fail mission where they aren’t likely to return without vocalizing questions or stopping, that’s the accepted standard we have between our leaders and their subordinate groups that have to follow them. But they do that because you DIDNT piss away that expendable capital on dumb shit like making people do something dumb thats reasoning is built on shaky justifications because it was the politically required thing to do.

Stop spending your finite resource to make your people do something just because you said so as a reason, and acknowledge it is finite. Or at the very least openly say to your people “yes this is dumb, but it’s mandated by the civilians that run this dog and pony show.” Don’t pretend it’s some secret science of risk mitigation that only people with stars understand. That’s as dumb as saying you will all write left handed now for your own safety and if you don’t there will be consequences.

[disgruntledemployee]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Ordinary citizens aren't mandated to get the vaccine. 

I was.  It was either get the shot or go unemployed. 

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Right.. unless they wanted to work a normal job, or travel to a big city, or visit their kids in school, or see their dying father in hospice, or take a cruise, or visit the doctor, or apply to college, etc.

Democrats mandated this ineffective vaccine and colluded with big tech to censor scientific questions.  I took it when ordered to and don’t like it but am not complaining; just like anthrax and all the other shit, it’s the cost of my chosen profession.  Copy.

 I am complaining about my wife being forced to take it or be fired from her teaching job, and I am complaining that the hospital wouldn’t let my unvaxed son visit his grandad one last time before I pulled life support.  Utter disgrace what was forced on this country, and disingenuous for anyone to pretend it wasn’t a democrat mandate.

ETA: it’s gotten better now, especially in FL.  But things went full retard for 2 years and democrats should be held accountable.

If they work for a company that requires vaccines, that's not a government mandate.  Same for hospitals - that's not a law, it's a hospital policy.

[tac airlifter]

3 minutes ago, pawnman said:

If they work for a company that requires vaccines, that's not a government mandate.  Same for hospitals - that's not a law, it's a hospital policy.

Except the government leaned on those companies to act that way. Just like the government curtailed free-speech by leaning on social media companies to stay for debate or questions about vaccine efficacy.

[Boomer6]

Feeding the troll isn’t worth the effort gents.

[disgruntledemployee]

I gots plenty of family in health care.  It was a government mandate via CDC requirements for health care facilities.  Stop trying to dance around the facts.  Quibbling flag thrown.

[Q1Checkride]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:17 PM, disgruntledemployee said:

I was.  It was either get the shot or go unemployed. 

I opted for unemployment.  Like all active duty, as a civilian DoD Contractor I was subject to meeting all CENTCOM Medical requirements in order to deploy OCONUS.  The latest version of those requirements, MOD 16, mandated the CV19 vaccine.  Every single one of my former co-workers who got covid, whether they got it while they were in the US, or got it while deployed....were "vaccinated".   Every.  Single.  One.    

https://www.centcom.mil/Portals/6/MEDICAL/MOD16.pdf

"15.F.7. COVID-19. MUST MEET CDC DEFINITION OF FULLY VACCINATED PRIOR TO DEPARTURE WITH AN FDA AUTHORIZED COVID-19 VACCINE. 15.F.9.A. IS NOT APPLICABLE TO THIS REQUIREMENT. PERSONNEL MUST BE FULLY VACCINATED TO ENTER THE USCENTCOM AOR, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, Q1Checkride said:

I PERSONNEL MUST BE FULLY VACCINATED TO ENTER THE USCENTCOM AOR, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

i was stationed in USAFE during the entirety of COVID and sat in on wing and UK level discussion about vaccinated airmen. I can say it was less about having folks vaccinated to prevent illness and more about meeting myriad restrictions on entering various countries. For a while, we only had a few crews who could go  to any country and that was mission impacting.

I say all of that because I would imagine a big part of the CENTCOM rule was so personnel didn’t deploy (assuming the HN even let them in country) and get stuck in mission limiting quarantine because they didn’t meet HN requirements. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Bigred

[FLEA]

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-strength-now-very-weak-heritage-foundation-report-says/

[Swizzle]

30 minutes ago, FLEA said:

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-strength-now-very-weak-heritage-foundation-report-says/

That’s a good $0.02

[Biff_T]

29 minutes ago, FLEA said:

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-strength-now-very-weak-heritage-foundation-report-says/

Anyone around after the pullout (sts) in Vietnam?   I'm curious if this is similar to the status of the military during the late 70s?  

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Biff_T said:

Anyone around after the pullout (sts) in Vietnam?   I'm curious if this is similar to the status of the military during the late 70s?  

Wasn't the where the term hollow force came from? The absolutely gutted military  that persisted through the 80s after fallout from Vietnam. 

 

It is worth noting the study was conducted by Heritage Foundation. They are not an unbiased source by any means. But its still a data point to consider. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by FLEA

[Q1Checkride]

2 hours ago, Bigred said:

i was stationed in USAFE during the entirety of COVID and sat in on wing and UK level discussion about vaccinated airmen. I can say it was less about having folks vaccinated to prevent illness and more about meeting myriad restrictions on entering various countries. For a while, we only had a few crews who could go  to any country and that was mission impacting.

I say all of that because I would imagine a big part of the CENTCOM rule was so personnel didn’t deploy (assuming the HN even let them in country) and get stuck in mission limiting quarantine because they didn’t meet HN requirements. 

CENTCOM MOD 16 mandating the CV19 vaccine was implemented in January 2022.  MOD 15 dated April 2020 had no such requirement.  Dod mandated vaccination for active duty was already in effect by the time MOD 16 came out.  Imo the CENTCOM CV19 vaccine requirement was added in Jan 2022 to further coerce civilian deployers subject to Biden's Executive Order 14042 from Sept 2021 requiring all Federal workers to get vaccinated.  

Lots of good info here regarding the current status of the E.O. as it pertains to federal workers.

https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/new/

 

[ClearedHot]

29 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Wasn't the where the term hollow force came from? The absolutely gutted military  that persisted through the 80s after fallout from Vietnam. 

 

It is worth noting the study was conducted by Heritage Foundation. They are not an unbiased source by any means. But its still a data point to consider. 

Indeed Heritage leans and is funded by conservatives but they do very good research and reports.  

I am seeing calls from members across Congress to replenish stocks we've sent to Ukraine.  I know there is one contract recently awarded to produce more Javelins, but there is a of other things that will be need to be replaced.  As you will see in the Ukraine thread we have even sent them HARMS from the late 90s.

[Bigred]

2 hours ago, Q1Checkride said:

CENTCOM MOD 16 mandating the CV19 vaccine was implemented in January 2022.  MOD 15 dated April 2020 had no such requirement.  Dod mandated vaccination for active duty was already in effect by the time MOD 16 came out.  Imo the CENTCOM CV19 vaccine requirement was added in Jan 2022 to further coerce civilian deployers subject to Biden's Executive Order 14042 from Sept 2021 requiring all Federal workers to get vaccinated.  

Lots of good info here regarding the current status of the E.O. as it pertains to federal workers.

https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/new/

 

Learning has occurred, thank you. 

[ClearedHot]

Some dumbassery by the Army as a Commander Bans Army-Issued Warm, Comfy Fleece Jacket as Winter Approaches.  This brings back some wonderful memories from down range and will likely remind some USAF douchenuts that it is time impose some useless directives to screw with deployed folks.

[tac airlifter]

47 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Some dumbassery by the Army as a Commander Bans Army-Issued Warm, Comfy Fleece Jacket as Winter Approaches.  This brings back some wonderful memories from down range and will like remind some USAF douchenuts that it is time impose some useless directives to screw with deployed folks.

Many wonderful memories indeed.

Informative to watch peers bifurcate into two broad command types:

1. Extreme focus on minutia of irrelevant things, especially uniform regulations, while excluding core topics like mission execution or individual competence in primary job. These are the “mission takes care of itself” types.

2. Extreme focus on team, mission and people but uninterested in “hands in pockets” or “sleeves rolled up” non-lethality impacting nuance.

Type 1 is the dominant breed, although type 2 does exist.  I am naïvely hoping for a collective moment of clarity by senior leaders acknowledging we suffered a humiliating defeat in Afghanistan and maybe that means we should change something about ourselves. Maybe we should focus on winning instead of fashion since the Taliban won wearing a non-uniform collection of sheets, rugs and shitty white Nikes.

[SocialD]

AF:  Here is your issued Boonie hat.  You have to bring it because it's on the mandatory packing list.

 

Also AF (in country):  You can not wear that Boonie hat...here is the memo stating so.  

 

True story.  

 

DOD:  No PT gear in your deployed location, just duty uniforms or civies...don't even bring PT gear.

 

*Guard unit gets moved to new location in AOR to stand up AOG, things are going great...then AD shows up*

 

AD Chief:  why are your people in civies and not AF PT gear?  AFI blah blah blah says duty uniform or pt gear...no civies.

 

Also true story.  

[skibum]

5 minutes ago, SocialD said:

AD Chief E-9:  why are your people in civies and not AF PT gear?  AFI blah blah blah says duty uniform or pt gear...no civies.

FIFY

[ATIS]

3 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Many wonderful memories indeed.

Informative to watch peers bifurcate into two broad command types:

1. Extreme focus on minutia of irrelevant things, especially uniform regulations, while excluding core topics like mission execution or individual competence in primary job. These are the “mission takes care of itself” types.

2. Extreme focus on team, mission and people but uninterested in “hands in pockets” or “sleeves rolled up” non-lethality impacting nuance.

Type 1 is the dominant breed, although type 2 does exist.  I am naïvely hoping for a collective moment of clarity by senior leaders acknowledging we suffered a humiliating defeat in Afghanistan and maybe that means we should change something about ourselves. Maybe we should focus on winning instead of fashion since the Taliban won wearing a non-uniform collection of sheets, rugs and shitty white Nikes.

Early days of DRACO ('06-'07)...Type 2 for sure.  Saw that start to switch over ~2008.

ATIS

[Biff_T]

6 hours ago, SocialD said:

AF:  Here is your issued Boonie hat.  You have to bring it because it's on the mandatory packing list.

 

Also AF (in country):  You can not wear that Boonie hat...here is the memo stating so.  

 

True story.  

 

DOD:  No PT gear in your deployed location, just duty uniforms or civies...don't even bring PT gear.

 

*Guard unit gets moved to new location in AOR to stand up AOG, things are going great...then AD shows up*

 

AD Chief:  why are your people in civies and not AF PT gear?  AFI blah blah blah says duty uniform or pt gear...no civies.

 

Also true story.  

I got Chiefed for cutting the chin string off of my boonie hat.  This was in 2003 as we were invading Iraq.  I saw another dude get Chiefed for not wearing his ID on his arm as he was eating at the chow hall.  He had just finished flying in Iraq.  This was around March - April 2003 time frame as well.   We were literally invading Iraq and all the Chief cared about was an ID card on an arm.  We were flying every day with min ground time.  Barely had time eat.   I've always wanted to thank that Chief for keeping us safe in the chow hall during those crazy times.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Biff_T
Afterthought

[Prosuper]

2 hours ago, Biff_T said:

I got Chiefed for cutting the chin string off of my boonie hat.  This was in 2003 as we were invading Iraq.  I saw another dude get Cheifed for not wearing his ID on his arm as he was eating at the chow hall.  He had just finished flying in Iraq.  This was around March - April 2003 time frame as well.   We were literally invading Iraq and all the Chief cared about was an ID card on an arm.  We were flying every day with min ground time.  Barely had time eat.   I've always wanted to thank that Chief for keeping us safe in the chow hall during those crazy times.  

During that time period lots of E-8's and 7's who made sure to go class C for dental or carpal tunnel when it was their turn to deploy. Then they got directed they will deploy or get out and marked down on their board scores for never been deployed in their 20 year career. That is when we saw the rash of guys who brought nothing to the fight but making themselves a pain in ass. Spent their time being uniform haircut police and writing each other bronze stars so they can make E-9.

[StoleIt]

E-9 Stories?

Manas in January: I deployed with no winter outer gear. I'd load up on thermals with just my flight suit. Best thing I eventually got was a summer weight green nomex jacket that they had to mail out to me.

Shockingly, never get E-9'd for that...but I would normally layer up my PTs since it was warmer. I had the recently outdated grey PT sweatshirt that said "Air Force" instead of the new one with the AF logo. I wasn't in the chow hall for more than 60 seconds before I got told I couldn't wear that. Yeap, young LT me wasn't having any of that. Surprised I never got talked to later for basically telling the dude to go ef himself since it was -15*F outside and I wasn't taking off the only warm freaking thing I had on the deployment.