What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Sua Sponte]

11 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Isn't he the JQP guy? He's gotten even wordier, and that says a lot coming from me 🤣😂

Impossible!

[HeloDude]

TLDR

[Swizzle]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

TLDR

BLUF: he has lingering emotional strings attached to Mother Blue and is angry she does dumb things. He attempts pursauesive logic to sway her irrationnal choice to no avail. 

[HeloDude]

12 hours ago, Swizzle said:

BLUF: he has lingering emotional strings attached to Mother Blue and is angry she does dumb things. He attempts pursauesive logic to sway her irrationnal choice to no avail. 

We have some mutual FB friends and several years ago I would see his social/political rants and my fiends’ pages —he’s a progressive leftist who truly believes that if you don’t agree with him then it’s because you’re stupid/not well educated.  He thinks he’s part of the elite because he went to Harvard law school post AF.  Let’s just say that if I agree with him on anything then it’s purely out of coincidence because he is a jerk, and that’s me putting it kindly.

[Swizzle]

10 hours ago, HeloDude said:

We have some mutual FB friends and several years ago I would see his social/political rants and my fiends’ pages —he’s a progressive leftist who truly believes that if you don’t agree with him then it’s because you’re stupid/not well educated.  He thinks he’s part of the elite because he went to Harvard law school post AF.  Let’s just say that if I agree with him on anything then it’s purely out of coincidence because he is a jerk, and that’s me putting it kindly.

I believe it, guessing he must be an idea driven man. The kind who lacks social skills and so focuses on ideas. So his human connectivity is centered about ideas.  The kind of boring conversionalist who only desires to discuss academic ideas with perfect solutions but rarily admitting the irrantional, realist ideas. And, then if your academic ideas aren't good enough he feigns interest or cut-and-runs so as not to go into his weakness - messy, irrational real life. And in the case of the USAF's monumentous agency cost blows a mental gasket. But no doubt that he produces great rational-centric arguments.

...could be wrong however. Back to a pint

 

Edited June 24 by Swizzle
Just to cover all the bases, maybe make a phone call!

[Danger41]

I don’t know the guy at all, but he’s like a lot of chronically online folks that think because they can bloviate, they are smarter than the average bear. Ironically, one of his more recent pieces clued me in to how he is just another in a long line of well intentioned dudes that just don’t get it.

He wrote an article recently about how when he was the deployed squadron commander and screwed up scheduling the rotator home for his squadron and had to tell them they couldn’t go home on time. The whole thing was a mea culpa about how he focused too much on the mission, lost track etc. This type of squadron commander (and eventual senior leader) has had so much AirPower theory and Simon Sinek crammed up their over educated ass that they forget that the main thing needs to be the main thing. All the servant leadership BS is self satisfying crap if you don’t do the actual effective work that folks care about. And that work is often not going to make it into the following years ACSC/AWC case study. It’s being brilliant at the basics.
 

Something something humble, approachable, credible, something, something. I forget. 

[Smokin]

Haven't read that story because, well, I just don't care.  But if that recap is even close, he sounds like the kind of guy that won't delegate anything because he's worried the guy he would delegate to isn't as capable and would screw it up.  So, in the process, he screws it up himself and the junior guys eventually take over as commander having not had any real responsibility.  And guess what they do?  Screw it up.

But in the meantime we've risked talking about him 3 times...

[SurelySerious]

Haven't read that story because, well, I just don't care.  But if that recap is even close, he sounds like the kind of guy that won't delegate anything because he's worried the guy he would delegate to isn't as capable and would screw it up.  So, in the process, he screws it up himself and the junior guys eventually take over as commander having not had any real responsibility.  And guess what they do?  Screw it up.
But in the meantime we've risked talking about him 3 times...

Story was really him using 9600 words go say the open ranks inspection is stupid, but we all knew that.

[Smokin]

Sorry, should have been more specific, meant the story Danger41 talked about.  I agree with that guy that will not be named at risk of his coming back to this board that the new 'standards' focus is dumb. 

It's like a E-9 from the height of the Died suddenly put on a bunch of stars.  Que their favorite Patton quote of 'if you can't get them to wear their uniform right, then how can you get them to fight right' or something like that.  Patton was a brilliant leader in many regards, but either this quote was made up (highly likely) or he had Biden moment.  Patton was a serious history buff and clearly knew that uniforms were a relatively new invention in warfare, so clearly not something that was truly necessary to combat.  Plus I doubt he would have ever passed a uniform inspection himself.  Ivory handled pistols, a sash, swagger stick, and custom non-authorized pants were clearly not in reg.

Just look at the Civil War and how the Rebels consistently had abysmal uniforms, far worse than the Union, yet man for man outfought the Union at pretty much every battle.  Rebels were often shoe-less, in tattered pants and a jacket, maybe a hat maybe not, a beard that hasn't seen a razor in months, and hair to match, yet those same guys stood out in the open 40 yards from the enemy for multiple volleys perfectly following orders.  Obviously there is no relation between fighting ability and uniform perfection, so why the newfound focus on uniforms? 

We must be doing so awesome in preparing for war with China that we can now focus on things that have zero impact on our ability to defend our nation.

[Stoker]

6 hours ago, Smokin said:

Patton was a brilliant leader in many regards

Was he? Anyone can be a brilliant leader when you have overwhelming material superiority, complete command of the air, and your enemy is so starved for fuel that your flanks are effectively immune from attack. His sole idea for motivating his men seems to be physically assaulting them, and like many of today's military leaders he seemed utterly incapable of understanding that the people he led weren't cut from the same stone as he was.

[SurelySerious]

Was he? Anyone can be a brilliant leader when you have overwhelming material superiority, complete command of the air, and your enemy is so starved for fuel that your flanks are effectively immune from attack. His sole idea for motivating his men seems to be physically assaulting them, and like many of today's military leaders he seemed utterly incapable of understanding that the people he led weren't cut from the same stone as he was.

His work during WWI was pretty impressive. Went from Lt to Col leading in battle.

[Swizzle]

31 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

...Went from Lt to Col leading in battle.

So did an entire generation in Afghanistan, and we all know how...I digress 

[O Face]

4 hours ago, Stoker said:

Was he? Anyone can be a brilliant leader when you have overwhelming material superiority, complete command of the air, and your enemy is so starved for fuel that your flanks are effectively immune from attack. His sole idea for motivating his men seems to be physically assaulting them, and like many of today's military leaders he seemed utterly incapable of understanding that the people he led weren't cut from the same stone as he was.

Well the Germans sure thought he was a brilliant leader, so there’s that. And I’m pretty sure smacking a couple dudes was absolutely not his “sole idea for motivating his men” as one of his speeches was literally turned into one of the most famous movie monologues of all time. Go visit Bastogne sometime, all the shops in town with paintings and statues of Patton seem to have been pretty inspired too.  As for not understanding the people he led, his final wish was to be buried next to them in Luxembourg…Yeah, what an asshole. 

Edited June 25 by O Face
.

[SurelySerious]

So did an entire generation in Afghanistan, and we all know how...I digress 

In two years? Read a book and then make a better argument

[Smokin]

14 hours ago, Stoker said:

Was he? Anyone can be a brilliant leader when you have overwhelming material superiority, complete command of the air, and your enemy is so starved for fuel that your flanks are effectively immune from attack. His sole idea for motivating his men seems to be physically assaulting them, and like many of today's military leaders he seemed utterly incapable of understanding that the people he led weren't cut from the same stone as he was.

Dude, I don't mean to be rude, but this is an elementary understanding of him and the war.  Any claim that the Germans, the US Army, and the overwhelming consensus of historians are all wrong should be backed up by a few more facts.  He did not have overwhelming material superiority for much of the Africa campaign, early in the campaign he was outnumbered and outgunned as often happens in an amphibious invasion.  He did not have complete air control, eventual superiority yes, but supremacy was not achieved until late in the war.  The Germans did have a fuel problem, but the fuel problem is vastly overstated in the initial parts of the African campaign.  The real fuel problems started when we were able to bomb refineries, which didn't happen for a while.  The physical assault motivation claim is absurd.  Slapping one dude in a fit of rage can hardly be considered "his sole idea for motivating".

I also said "in many regards".  He had some crazy bad character flaws; he was vain to a absurd level, he saw war as his chance to gain glory, etc.  Not to excuse those character flaws, but often the greater the man, the greater the flaws.  Everything can get magnified when you have someone that is almost larger than life.  As O Face said, the enemy's appreciation of a military leader is a great indication and the Germans feared him more than any other man.  That alone should tell us what we need to know about his abilities.

As for his role in WWI, making any comparisons between that and Afghanistan is absurd.  WWI: 53,000 US combat fatalities in about 18 months, Afghanistan, less than 2,000 in roughly 20 years.  Leaders in the world wars were promoted based on their actual capabilities on the battlefield far more than we have seen in the last 20 years.  That's how we ended up with a basically all-star team by the end of WWII that out led and out thought the enemy and now we're talking about open ranks inspections while we are at serious risk of losing the next world war.  I'm not some Patton fanboy, but his results speak for themselves. 

I'd rather be led by a dude that slaps a guy for not fighting than led by a dude that thinks some lint on your uniform is indicative of your military ability.

[Swizzle]

9 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

In two years? Read a book and then make a better argument

You missed my points - timeframe and outcome of battle/war matter. Man, Moment, Machine or something like that...it take more than just one of the three pieces to make a legend, and negating the others drops huge context...which someone finally brought up - a legacy. That's what right, but this thread is what's wrong. Afghanistan was wrong. Now then.

Back to ORI's and failing to field, test and/or develop new military stuff quickly. Why cannot any military leader do that? It's a cluster f* And something about an AFMC Integration Czar:  https://www.afmc.af.mil/Home/Strategic-Plan/

[Danger41]

Rumor is that this started when COMACC visited a base and asked 7 bearded Airmen if they had shaving waivers. Only 3 were able to produce them and the other 4 just straight up had nothing. I think sharp shooting the 4 star as not having the right focus etc is way more damning for the dozen supervisors between those Airmen and the 4 star. And alot of these nonners bitching about mission focus think their role in the mission is staring at their phone in a cubicle while their desk phone rings off the hook being ignored. They have zero clue and contribute even less. 

The uniform stuff has always been silly to me. Wearing your uniform correctly is easy as hell. Following whatever silly rule exists for uniform wear is easy as hell. I've always done it because one of my primary motivations is to not get hassled. I want to put my time and effort into my primary craft and not looking for problems. Having said that, I've been extremely fortunate at home station and deployed to never run across one of the infamous E-9's people talk about. Never once have I even seen a bro get hassled about uniform wear or moustache. 

 

[uhhello]

33 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Rumor is that this started when COMACC visited a base and asked 7 bearded Airmen if they had shaving waivers. Only 3 were able to produce them and the other 4 just straight up had nothing. I think sharp shooting the 4 star as not having the right focus etc is way more damning for the dozen supervisors between those Airmen and the 4 star. And alot of these nonners bitching about mission focus think their role in the mission is staring at their phone in a cubicle while their desk phone rings off the hook being ignored. They have zero clue and contribute even less. 

The uniform stuff has always been silly to me. Wearing your uniform correctly is easy as hell. Following whatever silly rule exists for uniform wear is easy as hell. I've always done it because one of my primary motivations is to not get hassled. I want to put my time and effort into my primary craft and not looking for problems. Having said that, I've been extremely fortunate at home station and deployed to never run across one of the infamous E-9's people talk about. Never once have I even seen a bro get hassled about uniform wear or moustache. 

 

Yup.  Was briefed locally here, one and done.  No big deal.  Silly, but no big deal.  

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Rumor is that this started when COMACC visited a base and asked 7 bearded Airmen if they had shaving waivers. Only 3 were able to produce them and the other 4 just straight up had nothing. I think sharp shooting the 4 star as not having the right focus etc is way more damning for the dozen supervisors between those Airmen and the 4 star. And alot of these nonners bitching about mission focus think their role in the mission is staring at their phone in a cubicle while their desk phone rings off the hook being ignored. They have zero clue and contribute even less. 

The uniform stuff has always been silly to me. Wearing your uniform correctly is easy as hell. Following whatever silly rule exists for uniform wear is easy as hell. I've always done it because one of my primary motivations is to not get hassled. I want to put my time and effort into my primary craft and not looking for problems. Having said that, I've been extremely fortunate at home station and deployed to never run across one of the infamous E-9's people talk about. Never once have I even seen a bro get hassled about uniform wear or moustache. 

 

Tony Carr is of the ilk who believe that a leader needs to "take care of his people" no matter what - stated differently: he believes that no one he supervises could ever fuck up. Ever. Which is why all his fire is directed upwards.

A lot of fire in the USAF is deservedly aimed high. A lot of it should be aimed low, though, too. He just cannot accept that most basic fact. Even airmen (small a) can be dipshits.

[Smokin]

Good to hear that this might be a mountain made from a mole hill. 

[Boomer6]

6 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Rumor is that this started when COMACC visited a base and asked 7 bearded Airmen if they had shaving waivers. Only 3 were able to produce them and the other 4 just straight up had nothing. I think sharp shooting the 4 star as not having the right focus etc is way more damning for the dozen supervisors between those Airmen and the 4 star. And alot of these nonners bitching about mission focus think their role in the mission is staring at their phone in a cubicle while their desk phone rings off the hook being ignored. They have zero clue and contribute even less. 

Valid. Supervisors should know if their ppl have a shaving waiver or not. That being said, until very recently the only dudes I saw with a beard were black. Since 2020 I have no problem believing supervisors were afraid to ask for fear of being labeled racist/hassling airmen of color. 

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

...until very recently the only dudes I saw with a beard were black. 

Are you and I in the same Air Force?

[CaptainMorgan]

I’ve seen a good number of white guys who have decided to practice Norse religion so they can get a religious exemption. I’m tempted to ask them about their beliefs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Danger41]

16 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Tony Carr is of the ilk who believe that a leader needs to "take care of his people" no matter what - stated differently: he believes that no one he supervises could ever fuck up. Ever. Which is why all his fire is directed upwards.

A lot of fire in the USAF is deservedly aimed high. A lot of it should be aimed low, though, too. He just cannot accept that most basic fact. Even airmen (small a) can be dipshits.

Here's a hot take of mine...the "toxic leadership" people talk about all the time is way blown out of proportion. Sure, there are some truly toxic leaders, but because a leader wants you to follow a standard and doesn't kiss your ass in all things doesn't mean they're toxic.

When I was a punk kid, I watched some Discovery channel documentary about a bunch of students going through BUD/S (I think it was called "Class 234" or something along the lines). There is a scene during their phase 3 where one of the Officer students told trainees to do something and they didn't do it. Their cadre dude smoked everyone and then told them how this is how you create bad, micromanaging Officers. I was mad at my dad at the same time and that really struck me because it was a very similar thing that I hadn't done and now had to deal with consequences. I put the emo music on pause, cut my hair, put on Rocky 4 and started my journey to become a barrel chested freedom fighter (written from my office as I hide from my responsibilities in the office).

[disgruntledemployee]

7 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

I’ve seen a good number of white guys who have decided to practice Norse religion so they can get a religious exemption. I’m tempted to ask them about their beliefs.


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Why? Beards are kick ass.  Ask Chuck Norris.  I'm waiting for the Wing King brave enough to make a blanket beard waiver for their base and see what happens.