What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Cell Dweller]

We are still doing the force-shaping, right? I can't remember with all the retractions and re-releases of announcements.Some of these leaders might be ripe for a SERB. Or at that level, would it just be an SRB?

The more I have to deal with folks at Peterson, the more I see opportunities for ADSC waivers and SERBs.

[MSCguy]

What's the 13S culture like? I was enlisted in MX (culture:work your hands to the bone to keep the pilots happy) and am now an MSC (replace pilots with doctors in the previous sentence). The few 13S dudes that I've met have had the "I couldn't make the cut to be Aircrew so FML" attitude.

[Cell Dweller]

What's the 13S culture like? I was enlisted in MX (culture:work your hands to the bone to keep the pilots happy) and am now an MSC (replace pilots with doctors in the previous sentence). The few 13S dudes that I've met have had the "I couldn't make the cut to be Aircrew so FML" attitude.

I can't speak for 13S, I just work with them, but the "couldn't cut it" attitude exists everywhere. There are flyers, doctors, and pro athletes that walk around like they screwed something up and their life sucks. They need to deal with it, and work hard at what they do. Every job has sucky parts, so hack it at what you do, or do something else.

[Gravedigger]

What's the 13S culture like? I was enlisted in MX (culture:work your hands to the bone to keep the pilots happy) and am now an MSC (replace pilots with doctors in the previous sentence). The few 13S dudes that I've met have had the "I couldn't make the cut to be Aircrew so FML" attitude.

The 13S culture is too immature to really define. There are definitely some people that wanted to be pilots and didn't make the cut; I would say they are less than 10% of the CGOs and usually leave after their first tour. Our biggest problem for years was the cross flow of missileers. Through no fault of their own, they would come to space jobs after their missile tours with no knowledge of space and zero credibility and then be put into leadership positions simply because of their rank. For the ones that put missiles behind them and were willing to learn, the transition was fine. For the ones that tried to make space fit into the rigid missile structure, the lives of everyone working for them sucked, and the mission suffered. Now missiles is completely separate except for a handful of transfers, and our assignments have been converted to 3 years to ensure 3 ops tours before making major and moving to staff. The leadership is focused on building experts in mission areas that can come back to lead later on and actually know what the hell is happening.

One of the biggest issues facing space ops is what jobs are for officers and what jobs are for enlisted. Currently, we have A1Cs doing literally the exact same job as senior captains. We have SrA in OSS and OGV training and evaluating Captains. The ratio of Os to Es in most space squadrons is close to 1:1. Something's going to give, this model isn't sustainable.

At the end of the day, most 13S are very satisfied with the career field. The work is interesting. We have by far the best basing options of any AFSC. Deployments are voluntary. Our ops centers are very nice. We don't wear reflective belts. We don't have any Chiefs to Chief us. The few we have in the wing have much more important things to do. When I quit pilot training, I was really worried about going to 13S; now, I'm happy to be here and wouldn't want to change.

[17D_guy]

Words..

We have by far the best basing options of any AFSC.

Say again? I'd put my basing list up against yours!

I found it very interesting being and Vandy and seeing the.. issues between the E's and O's in the OG. There's going to be a similar issue with us, but along the A/B shred.. and then with the 1B Cyber-Ops E's.

All my peers and I want to know is how the cross-flow to "A-Shred Operators" is going to work in the future with Sq CC's, NOSC, ESD's etc.. Currently we've got a Maj CC'ing a Sq with a tenant unit run by a Lt Col. Figure that crap out.

I'm trying to unscrew my bases' migration to the AFNET, and asked the "Crew Commander" Lt for a org chart showing the flow for cyber direction. Holy Mary. There's no way to explain who to call for a problem.

[Gravedigger]

Say again? I'd put my basing list up against yours!

You're crazy. List the best bases in the Air Force, I'll bet you13S's are there. List the worst bases; we don't go there.

Our three bad bases are Thule, Clear and Cavalier. Only a few people go to those places, and it's only for 1-2 years.

ETA: The irony of posting how good we've got it in the What's wrong with the Air Force thread isn't lost on me.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Gravedigger

[Azimuth]

You're crazy. List the best bases in the Air Force, I'll bet you13S's are there. List the worst bases; we don't go there.

Our three bad bases are Thule, Clear and Cavalier. Only a few people go to those places, and it's only for 1-2 years.

ETA: The irony of posting how good we've got it in the What's wrong with the Air Force thread isn't lost on me.

C-17's have a pretty good base selection, minus the FTU at Altus (McGuire, McChord, Charleston, Hickam, McGuire, Dover, Travis, Elmendorf)

[sputnik]

C-17's have a pretty good base selection, minus the FTU at Altus (McGuire, McChord, Charleston, Hickam, McGuire, Dover, Travis, Elmendorf)

.....Cannon, Creech, Hollaman, Big Fork, white jet bases....

Far as I know a 13S stays a 13S, where as an 11M C17 driver "can" go do all kinds of other fun stuff that doesn't involve C17s

[Azimuth]

.....Cannon, Creech, Hollaman, Big Fork, white jet bases....

Far as I know a 13S stays a 13S, where as an 11M C17 driver "can" go do all kinds of other fun stuff that doesn't involve C17s

And every other 11M is in the same boat, which includes the guys that spent one assignment at Pope or McConnell then to RPA's.

At least Barney drivers got one good assignment out of it.

[M2]

Not Air Force, but still the same issue with some of the younger troops...

And before anyone pipes up, Army Regulation 600-25, "Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy" states that during "Reveille" and "Retreat," moving vehicles will stop and military passengers and drivers will dismount and render the proper courtesies...

[Majestik Møøse]

What's Wrong With Army would be a lot longer thread. What a bunch of fucks.

[Azimuth]

What's Wrong With Army would be a lot longer thread. What a bunch of fucks.

With the lowest ASVAB entry requirements and taking folks in with GED's (the Marines won't accept GED's and the USAF only a few a year) what do you expect?

[Lawman]

With the lowest ASVAB entry requirements and taking folks in with GED's (the Marines won't accept GED's and the USAF only a few a year) what do you expect?

Thats not the only problem. The bigger issue is we've spent 7 years doing that kind of crap and thanks to the reverse musical chairs that is our enlisted promotion system where we simply have too few people willing to stick around a lot of those problem children now form a good size of our NCO corps.

[Azimuth]

Thats not the only problem. The bigger issue is we've spent 7 years doing that kind of crap and thanks to the reverse musical chairs that is our enlisted promotion system where we simply have too few people willing to stick around a lot of those problem children now form a good size of our NCO corps.

Promoting folks who run fast and shoot the gun well is a very archaic system.

[busdriver]

The Army infuriates me on so may levels. Two side tracks coming and yes these will paint with a broad brush:

1.) Why the warrant system sucks: Army officer pilots can end up in leadership positions without knowing what they are talking about. I tried to setup a a joint integrated fires exercise with the OH-58s on the same base. We had a training area that was at a sort of high altitude for helos, but not what I would call excessive (same as our school house) and not above what the Kiowas had actually done work at recently. Despite me working with the LT platoon leader to answer his leadership's apprehension (due to not knowing) about risk mitigation, the final answer was "no, you can't operate above XXXXmsl" with no regard for why, what was actually going on, and any thoughtful considerations by the dudes on the line.

2.) Infantry Generals who know nothing about anything that isn't grunts.: We were planning a hit, the Apache guys talked about being able to get over target and provides support for X amount of time before needing to go hit a FAARP, then they'd be back for Y period of time then we'll need to leave again. His next comment was "is that because of your crew rest" he changed his tone to mock "crew rest." To the Captain's credit he just replied, no sir we'll need to get more gas. My only point is, how does a dude get to be a 1 star in the current fight and not understand the fundamental aviation aspect of running out of gas?

I say all that, but interactions at my level and down has always been outstanding with the Army, just a bunch of dudes figuring out how to make it happen. Which I guess is why dealing with Army leadership is exasperating.

[Lawman]

The Army infuriates me on so may levels. Two side tracks coming and yes these will paint with a broad brush:

1.) Why the warrant system sucks: Army officer pilots can end up in leadership positions without knowing what they are talking about. I tried to setup a a joint integrated fires exercise with the OH-58s on the same base. We had a training area that was at a sort of high altitude for helos, but not what I would call excessive (same as our school house) and not above what the Kiowas had actually done work at recently. Despite me working with the LT platoon leader to answer his leadership's apprehension (due to not knowing) about risk mitigation, the final answer was "no, you can't operate above XXXXmsl" with no regard for why, what was actually going on, and any thoughtful considerations by the dudes on the line.

2.) Infantry Generals who know nothing about anything that isn't grunts.: We were planning a hit, the Apache guys talked about being able to get over target and provides support for X amount of time before needing to go hit a FAARP, then they'd be back for Y period of time then we'll need to leave again. His next comment was "is that because of your crew rest" he changed his tone to mock "crew rest." To the Captain's credit he just replied, no sir we'll need to get more gas. My only point is, how does a dude get to be a 1 star in the current fight and not understand the fundamental aviation aspect of running out of gas?

I say all that, but interactions at my level and down has always been outstanding with the Army, just a bunch of dudes figuring out how to make it happen. Which I guess is why dealing with Army leadership is exasperating.

Never ask a question of a Lt in a 3 Shop unless it involves something like how much are the tickets to the ball gonna cost. Also when asking questions of Cpts confirm PC status or confirm answer with a CW2+.

And I cant tell you how many times Ive wanted to strangle somebody over the issue of crew rest. Bullet heads dont get it and will come up with some goofy ass ways to get around it. I had a night where I spent 13 hours from start to finish physically in the aircraft with it at least APU on. But because I only spun blades for 6 hours of it (granted with a big long ass sit in the middle occasionally firing them to cool the transmission) we were within legal.

[busdriver]

Lawman, in this case the LT I was referring to was spot on. The kid was a PC (at least I think so, but just barely and he seemed very interested in joining the AF), we talked for multiple hours about how he could prove to his boss (a 47 guy, so no power concerns ever, and probably a shitty pilot) about why this would work and not be risky at all. We had very specific weapons delivery parameters planned, the whole flight was scripted. The answer was "you can't employ above XXXmsl." end of story.

As far as bullet heads not understanding aviation, I get it and wouldn't expect an infantry capt to understand aviation, but a General should get it. He shouldn't be a grunt fluffer asshole about it. This dude couldn't have cared less about his own Apache dudes, hey they aren't Infantry.

[Darth]

https://www.armytimes.com/article/20140225/NEWS/302250023

Oops. Thought I had posted this in the WTF thread. Obviously not. Just the start of the way the rest of the day went at work as well. However, one more day of work then off to skiing for the weekend.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Darth

[hispeed7721]

This is downright ridiculous and embarrassing.

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[Tnkr]

The worst part is that she doesn't seem to have the moral understanding or introspective capability to be embarrassed or understand why people are upset over this.

[M2]

The worst part is that she doesn't seem to have the moral understanding or introspective capability to be embarrassed or understand why people are upset over this.

Exactly.

Sheffey responded with a video on Instagram on Tuesday and expressed regret. But she stopped short of apologizing for her actions:

“I seriously just want to say thank you to everybody who stood up to me today, like seriously. That s--- to me was not that serious. I am not a disrespectful soldier and I really appreciate you all.”

I understand that people make mistakes, but the fact that she still doesn't get what she did was wrong means she simply doesn't "get it" and doesn't need to be wearing the uniform...

By the way, this was also posted in the but as aptly noted by Majestik Møøse, if we started a 'What's Wrong With the Army' thread it was be a much longer thread!

[hispeed7721]

On a similar note, who in the world stood up for this chick?!

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[OverTQ]

The Army is ran by ground dudes who think (to some degree of correctness) that it is all about them. But when a helicopter lands, everybody goes running towards to aircraft. Cause let's face it, we are cool and sexy and it just burns them up. Seriously, it just comes across as insecurity to me. You learn to roll with it or just tell them what they need to hear. I have had more than a few try to give me a rash in some required school or another. But I have yet to have one who wasn't overly happy to see me in OIF/OEF when bad guys were near.

[one1]

I hope that everyone who is criticizing this soldier over the internet is willing to criticize and correct the line of people that wait by their office door before leaving for the day instead of walking outside and rendering a salute. This is such a common thing but people usually don't take pictures of it. I never understood why people are not willing to walk outside and salute for 20 or 30 seconds

Many Army bases actually require the soldier get out of their car and salute. I have never been to an Air Force base with that rule but I might be wrong to say the Air Force doesn't follow this practice. I think it is lazy and immature to not follow the rules of your base but I do not think the soldier disrespected the flag by not getting out of her car and saluting. To say so would mean that every time I just pullover (like everyone else does at my base) instead of getting out of my car and saluting, I would also be disrespecting the flag. I am not defending the laziness and ignorance of this soldier, I just think that some of the responses by the public are a little extreme. People have equated her not saluting to treason. Some people are saying that they should give her an article 15 or kick her out of the military. That seems a little extreme.

Fix her behavior by giving her the privilege to raise the flag on base for a few months or allowing her to solemnly present a flag to the loved one of a veteran at a military funeral. If she can present that flag to a crying widow and not be willing to take the 30 seconds to salute the flag each day, she is a lost cause.

[guineapigfury]

I hope that everyone who is criticizing this soldier over the internet is willing to criticize and correct the line of people that wait by their office door before leaving for the day instead of walking outside and rendering a salute. This is such a common thing but people usually don't take pictures of it. I never understood why people are not willing to walk outside and salute for 20 or 30 seconds

Many Army bases actually require the soldier get out of their car and salute. I have never been to an Air Force base with that rule but I might be wrong to say the Air Force doesn't follow this practice. I think it is lazy and immature to not follow the rules of your base but I do not think the soldier disrespected the flag by not getting out of her car and saluting. To say so would mean that every time I just pullover (like everyone else does at my base) instead of getting out of my car and saluting, I would also be disrespecting the flag. I am not defending the laziness and ignorance of this soldier, I just think that some of the responses by the public are a little extreme. People have equated her not saluting to treason. Some people are saying that they should give her an article 15 or kick her out of the military. That seems a little extreme.

Fix her behavior by giving her the privilege to raise the flag on base for a few months or allowing her to solemnly present a flag to the loved one of a veteran at a military funeral. If she can present that flag to a crying widow and not be willing to take the 30 seconds to salute the flag each day, she is a lost cause.

I was taught at OTS to salute if your outside, wait for the music to be over (if it's already started) if you're inside and do not rush to change your location either way. Also, I was an Army Brat for 16 years (lived on Army Bases for most of those years) and I have never seen someone get out of the car to salute. Honestly you'd be taking your life in your own hands as you're risking getting squished by some dependapotamus in her minivan texting the rest of the herd about 50 Shades of Gray being 50% off at the PX when she should be focused on driving and maybe noticing all those other cars are stopped for some reason.

Edited February 26, 2014 by guineapigfury