What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Toro]

They do because the club doesn't charge for the venue, setup, projector/sound system checking, and tear down when everyone is inebriated. Students are free to go whereever, but paying $18/pizza when everything else is free doesn't look that bad when you explain that they will be responsible for everything for setup AND tear down at the end of the night.

Please tell me you're not serious

[Cornholio5]

They do because the club doesn't charge for the venue, setup, projector/sound system checking, and tear down when everyone is inebriated. Students are free to go whereever, but paying $18/pizza when everything else is free doesn't look that bad when you explain that they will be responsible for everything for setup AND tear down at the end of the night.

Actually, they have to use the club. Many classes try to get a venue off-base but leadership and the club don't allow it. Kind of pathetic that there is a monopoly on this. Also, many classes have tried to buy kegs off-base with higher quality beer for cheaper than the horse-piss that the club offers, but they are not allowed to. This would be a non-issue if strippers were bused in to the club like how it was done in another Air Force far far away...

Edited June 14, 2014 by Cornholio5

[C-21.Pilot]

Actually, they have to use the club. Many classes try to get a venue off-base but leadership and the club don't allow it. Kind of pathetic that there is a monopoly on this. Also, many classes have tried to buy kegs off-base with higher quality beer for cheaper than the horse-piss that the club offers, but they are not allowed to. This would be a non-issue if strippers were bused in to the club like how it was done in another Air Force far far away...

Long-term misconception....

There is ZERO requirement to have any party, etc at the club and spend any money. Leadership only wants the "official" function there and rightfully so....they cannot force you to spend any money at the Club. Period.

However -

1. Why not advertise that you are hosting the event at the club?

2. Provide ZERO beverage and food....

3. At the end of the night, offer an after party at whatever bar, etc that your class chooses....

4. Half the fuckers at track select/graduation are there for your free beer anyway.

[guineapigfury]

Long-term misconception....

There is ZERO requirement to have any party, etc at the club and spend any money. Leadership only wants the "official" function there and rightfully so....they cannot force you to spend any money at the Club. Period.

However -

1. Why not advertise that you are hosting the event at the club?

2. Provide ZERO beverage and food....

3. At the end of the night, offer an after party at whatever bar, etc that your class chooses....

4. Half the fuckers Everyone at track select/graduation except the tracking/graduating class are there for your free beer anyway.

FTFY.

[sqwatch]

Too each their own. I didn't even want to attend my own graduation dinner...

Weird. Refusing to purchase a mess dress never occurred to me. I would have missed out on so much. The shenanigans at my own upt graduation was worth the $300 for my mess dress, not to mention the formal AF events at Nellis that rarely ended in boredom. Plus my wife digs me in it.

[guineapigfury]

Weird. Refusing to purchase a mess dress never occurred to me. I would have missed out on so much. The shenanigans at my own upt graduation was worth the $300 for my mess dress, not to mention the formal AF events at Nellis that rarely ended in boredom. Plus my wife digs me in it.

Mess dress purchase was mandatory at OTS. IIRC, you had to buy it the first week, presumably so AAFES could capture $400 from the 10% who quit before they threw in the towel.

[Dupe]

Weird. Refusing to purchase a mess dress never occurred to me. I would have missed out on so much. The shenanigans at my own upt graduation was worth the $300 for my mess dress, not to mention the formal AF events at Nellis that rarely ended in boredom. Plus my wife digs me in it.

One of my favorite recurring AF moments is emptying the pockets of my mess dress when an event comes up and finding the booze that I stuffed in there from the last event. Then, prior to the event, I buy a bunch of hotel sampler booze bottles and the cycle repeats itself....

[matmacwc]

Buy it for your loved ones, they dig it, get over it.

[Chuck17]

That there's a discussion about mess dress going on in the "Whats wrong with the AF" thread should be eye opening.

What the hell dudes! Are you really saying that THIS is something pushing you over the edge? Of all the garbage going on in the AF today...?

Sport bitching at its finest. God bless BO.net.

Chuck

[Dupe]

Have you ever tried to manage a base club? Ever actually been involved and seen the budget breakdown on paper? It's a huge challenge just to keep some of these clubs open. Many of them have revenues in the negative--i.e. the Wg/CC has to figure out how to PAY to keep the club open. But yet people want and need the Clubs for retirements, promotion parties & ceremonies, dining in's, reunions, etc. And many people genuinely still long for the club to be a good/fun place to hang out, like it has been at various times in the past.

What's really wrong with the AF is that it takes at least MAJCOM approval to shut a club. Rather than figure out how to best provide air, space, and cyber power, WG/CCs are spending way too much time figuring out how to keep all the balls in the air when it simply isn't possible.

[ElLoco]

"Active duty is ridiculous" and you would go to "straight to MEO" if the instructors in your unit weren't allowed to order kid's meals at an official function at the O'club?

Can you hear yourself?

Ironically, this, to me, is what's wrong with the Air Force: Whiney, squadron-level CGOs complaining about trivial nonsense from the cheap seats. So the O'club food sucks and the kids meals are better. Quick, everyone order kids meals to prove a point. ....Touche'. Nice work. Really. That's actually pretty funny. But are you really surprised it gets axed at higher levels?

Have you ever tried to manage a base club? Ever actually been involved and seen the budget breakdown on paper? It's a huge challenge just to keep some of these clubs open. Many of them have revenues in the negative--i.e. the Wg/CC has to figure out how to PAY to keep the club open. But yet people want and need the Clubs for retirements, promotion parties & ceremonies, dining in's, reunions, etc. And many people genuinely still long for the club to be a good/fun place to hang out, like it has been at various times in the past.

Is it ever going to get better if the Officers are ordering kid's meals?

You say leadership needs to get their priorities straight. What exactly do you think a Wg/CC does on a daily basis? If you don't think he spends time handling issues with the Officer's Club on his base, you're smoking crack. If you want to only deal with flying/operational challenges, go be an OG/CC. The Wg/CC's purview is greater.....he spends a lot of time dealing with issues with the installation and it's facilities. That's his job. Is stopping a large group of Officers from making a mockery of the food at his O'club during an official function really something you'd expect him to overlook as a "waste of time?"

If this is why you're getting out of the Air Force "like a rat from a burning ship," I'd say you're the one turning minute issues into big ones and putting important issues by the wayside. Good luck in your next career, I'm sure the grass will be much greener.

Wing exec?

[Cornholio5]

"Active duty is ridiculous" and you would go to "straight to MEO" if the instructors in your unit weren't allowed to order kid's meals at an official function at the O'club?

Can you hear yourself?

Ironically, this, to me, is what's wrong with the Air Force: Whiney, squadron-level CGOs complaining about trivial nonsense from the cheap seats. So the O'club food sucks and the kids meals are better. Quick, everyone order kids meals to prove a point. ....Touche'. Nice work. Really. That's actually pretty funny. But are you really surprised it gets axed at higher levels?

If this is why you're getting out of the Air Force "like a rat from a burning ship," I'd say you're the one turning minute issues into big ones and putting important issues by the wayside. Good luck in your next career, I'm sure the grass will be much greener.

And you, Sir, are a shining example of the reason why I am getting out. It definitely looks like I struck a nerve with you. Thanks for validating further, not that I really needed anymore validation, but I do appreciate it. From your wording, I can only assume you are either management or aspiring to be in management--I hope the kool aid tastes good. I too wish you the very best of luck in your career. May it be filled with multiple 365s, extraordinary PME experiences, never ending CBTs, a few stars, screwing over your people for personal gain, and endless queep piles.

And no, that post was not about kids meals, it is about how management tends to waste endless amounts of time on trivial matters that can be handled at much lower levels-if at all...

Wing exec?

Sure sounds like it El Loco. Duder went full-personal on here... Edited June 15, 2014 by Cornholio5

[MD]

What's really wrong with the AF is that it takes at least MAJCOM approval to shut a club. Rather than figure out how to best provide air, space, and cyber power, WG/CCs are spending way too much time figuring out how to keep all the balls in the air when it simply isn't possible.

This is what happened way back when, when we got rid of Air Divisions and went to the "on wing, one base, one boss" objective wing concept. Time was, the AD/CC....otherwise known as the base commander.....ran all the support functions of the base: CE squadron, SP squadron, medical, CBPO, etc. The Wg/CC, subordinate to the AD, ran his stuff for his mission, and wasn't bothered by the extras that the AD commander dealt with. His concern was the flying/operational challenges, etc; and he oversaw those through his DCO, DCM, and their subordiante squadrons.

Times have changed. And some think not necessarily for the better.

Edited June 15, 2014 by MD

[bbj77]

Ok, here's a doozie.

A buddy of mine that is currently stationed at a UPT base told me about an issue concerning graduation meals that has caused quite a stir amongst leadership. Apparently the meals that are served for graduation banquets at the club are, to quote Rodney Dangerfield, "low-grade dog food." One of the IPs for the last graduation ordered a kids meal and said it was much better, so this time through, all the IPs ordered kids meals. Somehow, Wing leadership got a hold of this information and the SQ/CC called the FLT/CC in and rolled him up for it. All IPs then had to change their order and order adult meals. There was no age limit specified so how in the hell could leadership do this? You cannot tell someone what they can and cannot eat. I would go straight to MEO.

So, this comes to show how ridiculous everything is getting in the AD. If I were any member of leadership, I would get pissed for someone even bringing this up with me. AD leadership loves to turn small minute issues into really big ones while the important issues are put by the wayside. Talk about a waste of time and priorities being way out of whack. Unbelievable. And leadership is wondering why everyone is leaving the Air Force as fast as rats jumping from a burning ship.

If you are forced to go to graduation and the food sucks (who doesn't like mystery prime rib?), can you have the option of paying the full price meal fare but still ordering the kids meal chicken tenders and tots? If I'll be chastised for not going then I'd much rather pay full price but get a meal I would actually eat. I guarantee you leadership doesn't care what you eat but the club is mad they are losing out on an extra $13 per plate.

[pawnman]

"Active duty is ridiculous" and you would go to "straight to MEO" if the instructors in your unit weren't allowed to order kid's meals at an official function at the O'club?

Can you hear yourself?

Ironically, this, to me, is what's wrong with the Air Force: Whiney, squadron-level CGOs complaining about trivial nonsense from the cheap seats. So the O'club food sucks and the kids meals are better. Quick, everyone order kids meals to prove a point. ....Touche'. Nice work. Really. That's actually pretty funny. But are you really surprised it gets axed at higher levels?

Have you ever tried to manage a base club? Ever actually been involved and seen the budget breakdown on paper? It's a huge challenge just to keep some of these clubs open. Many of them have revenues in the negative--i.e. the Wg/CC has to figure out how to PAY to keep the club open. But yet people want and need the Clubs for retirements, promotion parties & ceremonies, dining in's, reunions, etc. And many people genuinely still long for the club to be a good/fun place to hang out, like it has been at various times in the past.

Is it ever going to get better if the Officers are ordering kid's meals?

You say leadership needs to get their priorities straight. What exactly do you think a Wg/CC does on a daily basis? If you don't think he spends time handling issues with the Officer's Club on his base, you're smoking crack. If you want to only deal with flying/operational challenges, go be an OG/CC. The Wg/CC's purview is greater.....he spends a lot of time dealing with issues with the installation and it's facilities. That's his job. Is stopping a large group of Officers from making a mockery of the food at his O'club during an official function really something you'd expect him to overlook as a "waste of time?"

If this is why you're getting out of the Air Force "like a rat from a burning ship," I'd say you're the one turning minute issues into big ones and putting important issues by the wayside. Good luck in your next career, I'm sure the grass will be much greener.

Maybe if the clubs had decent food and service, and were remotely fun to hang out at, then they wouldn't be in the red and the WG/CC wouldn't be trying to figure out how to keep it open.

[zrooster99]

Maybe if the clubs had decent food and service, and were remotely fun to hang out at, then they wouldn't be in the red and the WG/CC wouldn't be trying to figure out how to keep it open.

Close 'em down. You can hold official events at other venues. For that matter, get rid of all the AF bands too.

[Skitzo]

Maybe if the clubs had decent food and service, and were remotely fun to hang out at, then they wouldn't be in the red and the WG/CC wouldn't be trying to figure out how to keep it open.

Why can't the Air Force call Jon Taffer?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MD]

Some bases have an Air Base Wing Commander and a Flying Wing Commander, etc. Nellis is like that, as well as a few CAF bases. I don't know if this is used in the MAF or AETC. Pros and Cons I guess. I can't imagine the wing commander is actively involved in managing the officer's club, but at a split wing that is the Air Base wing commander's problem.

On the flip side, it is pretty difficult to yell at the comm squadron and LRS when you don't own them and they don't technically work for you. Don't tell them they do, or else they'll get upset. It can be difficult for the wing to have an Ops focus if the guys running the place don't have anything to do with Ops.

I'd also like to hear how that complaint to MEO goes. The one where you felt slighted because you couldn't get a kids meal at the last graduation. Don't you know there is a chicken nugget shortage?

In a situation like Nellis, an ABW is essential simply for the sheer size of everything involved at that base that would be a mountain for one flying Wg/CC to handle. It just couldn't be done. Where that concept is good, even though the Wg/CC doesn't own the support assets, is to have a good working relationship with that ABW/CC (or AD/CC back in the day, though the Wg was an echelon lower back then) and have that single point of contact to get problems fixed when they occur. So yeah I agree, it can go both ways depending on the relationship climate at a given location.

[ElLoco]

Maybe if the clubs had decent food and service, and were remotely fun to hang out at, then they wouldn't be in the red and the WG/CC wouldn't be trying to figure out how to keep it open.

Exactly..who bothers with these things anymore anyway

[TreeA10]

Back in the 80's I was tasked by my Sq CC to look into why the O'Club was losing money. At the time, funds from the club were siphoned off to other base MWR activities. I found the only time the Club showed a profit was when it was closed because no money was sent out the door.

Saw a Club Manager get fired at Shaw because he was not impressed with our Fighter Pilot Bar Olympics and, trying to get us to stop, told us "This is not your club." He was proven wrong. Score one for the good guys.

Sounds like mandatory supervised fun is still alive and well.

[sqwatch]

Wing exec?

Here we go. Because he's not holding the picket lines with the rest of the AF haters, he's a butt-sniffing, ball-washing CCE.

And you, Sir, are a shining example of the reason why I am getting out. It definitely looks like I struck a nerve with you. Thanks for validating further, not that I really needed anymore validation, but I do appreciate it. From your wording, I can only assume you are either management or aspiring to be in management--I hope the kool aid tastes good. I too wish you the very best of luck in your career. May it be filled with multiple 365s, extraordinary PME experiences, never ending CBTs, a few stars, screwing over your people for personal gain, and endless queep piles.

And no, that post was not about kids meals, it is about how management tends to waste endless amounts of time on trivial matters that can be handled at much lower levels-if at all...

Sure sounds like it El Loco. Duder went full-personal on here...

I'm sure he's heartbroken that he solidified your reasons for leaving. You must be relieved that some dude on an anonymous internet forum has validated your life altering decision for leaving the AF.

My commanders never had any interest in making me their exec. Maybe it's because I lack certain queepy skill sets required of executive officers, maybe it's because I'm too ugly to use as the front man, maybe both. In fact, I'm a pretty average dude, with a career vector that shoots right through the middle of the bell curve, yet I still enjoy the club. It could be better (I long for the days of yore when the local talent was bussed through the front gate and to the front door of the O-club for us to fornicate upon), but the club is still a place where I can tie one on with the bros, have a beer with my boss, and call the shoes out for texting like a$sh0les. Unfortunately, with every pus$y that rebukes the club on trumped up charges like "the food is no good", "the service is lousy" or "I'm too cheap and antisocial to buy a messdress as I'd rather spend Friday nights locked in my masterbatorium", the club looses out on revenue and your bros miss out on your camaraderie.

I'm still on the fence regarding staying in beyond my UPT ADCS that expires in a year, but if I get out, it won't be because of crappy food at the club and my dues will be paid through 31 Aug 15.

[MD]

...... told us "This is not your club." He was proven wrong. Score one for the good guys.

Sounds like mandatory supervised fun is still alive and well.

Unfortunately, that doesn't always prove to be the case. Look at Laughlin. Unless something has changed in the long time since I've been there, but there used to be a pilot-centric club bar, which was turned into a sports-bar type motif rather than a pilot-type motif after non-pilot types complained about not feeling welcome.....at a UPT base.

Compared to Willie, where there was a back room that you could do pretty much what you want. Get pissed and want to punch a hole in the wall? Fine. Just leave your card number so you can be appropriately charged for the damage repair.

I agree there are lots of challenges for a club to survive, especially at more urban-located bases where there is ample off-base competition for business. And clubs have varying problems, some minor, some major. Ultimately, the membership will come if the club and the members work to make it their own. I would like to hope that the clubs aren't a thing of the past.

Edited June 15, 2014 by MD

[ElLoco]

Here we go.

[HeyWatchThis]

Long-term misconception....

There is ZERO requirement to have any party, etc at the club and spend any money. Leadership only wants the "official" function there and rightfully so....they cannot force you to spend any money at the Club. Period.

However -

1. Why not advertise that you are hosting the event at the club?

2. Provide ZERO beverage and food....

3. At the end of the night, offer an after party at whatever bar, etc that your class chooses....

4. Half the ######ers at track select/graduation are there for your free beer anyway.

Well, my experience at Del Rio didn't follow this. We were told you will do/buy X, Y, and Z (none of these were part of the official graduation) or you will not graduate. This came from leadership (IPs) after the club was telling us what we shall be buying from them and students trying to throw the BS flag.....

[SocialD]

I would like to hope that the clubs aren't a thing of the past.

To late... The only time I set foot in the Sheppard club was for assignment nights, and I can only recall going into the Luke Club for a mandatory wing pilot call and my graduation. While TDY we stopped by the DM club back in 2010 and the score of a crud game, from when our squadron was TDY there in 2006, was still there!