BX renovations.....a waste or worth it

[lilbigman]

So I returned from my deployment to see the McConnell BX under renovations. I really wouldn't be saying anything except that it was under renovations when I left. They are adding a food court, GNC, and who knows that else in the BX. Guess my thoughts are:

1) Considering they have the space to build a new and better BX, and it would have been cheaper (yes, go figure that one out), why wouldn't they go with that plan instead of renovations.

2) If you are doing renovations to an already sad and pretty pathetic BX, wouldn't you want to make it somewhat BIGGER than what was originally there?

For those that have been to or at this location, I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Personally, I use Sam's, Dillon's, and other locations besides the BX. Not going to say I wouldn't or don't utilize them, but if you are going to get a bigger military population to your business, aren't these two simple things you would consider?

Thoughts

[GovernmentMan]

I have no idea how the contracting/financing/construction process works when it comes to building a BX. But I did notice that it took Keesler like 5 years to replace the brand new one that got swamped by Katrina. I'm not sure if that figures into the overall topic you're talking about, but it just piles a little more "WTF" onto the heap.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

The BX and commissary are the epitome of DOD mismanagement of a potential revenue source. The fact that there are two separate structures for the BX/commissary is absolutely LAUGHABLE (yes, i realize that the commissary is DECA and the BX is AAFES). If they were smart they would employ the walmart model. Consolidate everything into one structure. If DECA absolutely insists on having their own separate world, make a closeable gate to their part of the building so when they are closed on Mondays for no explanable reason, then close the gate. Same goes for the class 6, Burger King, and any other retail outlet on the base.... one building, one (massive) parking lot, one checkout (don't tell me computers can't keep sales records separate at the register). The reason I don't shop at the BX and commissary isn't so much that it's not a bargain, it's that it is an epic pain in the ass.

[Gravedigger]

The BX and commissary are the epitome of DOD mismanagement of a potential revenue source. The fact that there are two separate structures for the BX/commissary is absolutely LAUGHABLE (yes, i realize that the commissary is DECA and the BX is AAFES). If they were smart they would employ the walmart model. Consolidate everything into one structure. If DECA absolutely insists on having their own separate world, make a closeable gate to their part of the building so when they are closed on Mondays for no explanable reason, then close the gate. Same goes for the class 6, Burger King, and any other retail outlet on the base.... one building, one (massive) parking lot, one checkout (don't tell me computers can't keep sales records separate at the register). The reason I don't shop at the BX and commissary isn't so much that it's not a bargain, it's that it is an epic pain in the ass.

Agreed. I think Peterson is halfway there, at least the BX, Commissary, Uniform Shop, Barber, and Food Court are all in the same building. The commissary is open on Mondays too. That said, you still have to shop at each place separately.

It doesn't really bother me, because I rarely shop at either place. If the prices at the BX weren't double Wal-Mart or Target's prices, maybe I'd consider giving them my business.

As far as renovations, I was TDY to Vandenberg last month and I walked into the BX to get a few items. The place was completely destroyed, and they had signs advertising the Grand Re-opening...supposedly happening that weekend. It looked like they were approximately 3% complete, and had 4 days left until the supposed re-opening. The shopette on base at Schriever closed for 3 days for renovations. They moved the soda fountain and turned the counter sideways...and it took 3 days.

[Vetter]

They are building some brand new buildings (hospital and commissary and BX) at Spangdahlem. Total cost of all the construction = $400M. They are constructing new buildings so they can shut down Bitburg Annex...for a total savings of $10M per year. And we are bankrupt because?

Some fucking Colonel probably got promoted with this logic...

Edited August 27, 2011 by Vetter

[pawnman]

They are building some brand new buildings (hospital and commissary and BX) at Spangdahlem. Total cost of all the construction = $400M. They are constructing new buildings so they can shut down Bitburg Annex...for a total savings of $10M per year. And we are bankrupt because?

Some fucking Colonel probably got promoted with this logic...

It's OK, that's a different pot of money.

[Vertigo]

They are building some brand new buildings (hospital and commissary and BX) at Spangdahlem. Total cost of all the construction = $400M. They are constructing new buildings so they can shut down Bitburg Annex...for a total savings of $10M per year. And we are bankrupt because?

Yeah... and in 41 years we'll be in the black!

Edited August 27, 2011 by Vertigo

[HU&W]

The only good BX's and Commissaries are in locations with a huge retiree population. It's all revenue based, not based on who could actually use it.

[Guest Crew Report]

Altus needs a BX.

[HerkDerka]

Fuck DECA/AAFES. I make every effort possible to avoid supporting these institutions.

If your base is the the middle of nowhere or an overseas location, it make perfect sense to have one. But for the most part they are unnecessary on modern AF bases, just a place for arthritic old farts to shop and middle-aged asian women to have a job. When you factor in the surcharges, you're paying more than you would off base.

[Majestik Møøse]

Get rid of all BXs stateside. Just pass a law that allows military and retirees to buy stuff sales tax-free.

[Dupe]

###### DECA/AAFES. I make every effort possible to avoid supporting these institutions.

AAFES partially funds your FSS activities. Sure, the posters have pictures of money going to play-grounds in base-housing or new ski equipment at Outdoor Rec. The reality on most bases is that the bulk of the money goes into the Child Development Centers. I'm pretty sure that bases that said "Just go shop at WalMart. Child Development Center closes 1 Oct due to lack of funding." would be really crappy places to be for our troops with young kids. I'm not saying purchase every roll of TP and every tool at AAFES...I'm saying know where the money goes. I can handle paying $0.50 extra for a bag of dog food knowing that the profit goes to SSgt Snuffy's toddler vice to Bentonville.

[Whitman]

Fuck DECA/AAFES. I make every effort possible to avoid supporting these institutions.

If your base is the the middle of nowhere or an overseas location, it make perfect sense to have one. But for the most part they are unnecessary on modern AF bases, just a place for arthritic old farts to shop and middle-aged asian women to have a job. When you factor in the surcharges, you're paying more than you would off base.

Are you serious right now? Arthritic old farts?

[sky_king]

AAFES partially funds your FSS activities. Sure, the posters have pictures of money going to play-grounds in base-housing or new ski equipment at Outdoor Rec. The reality on most bases is that the bulk of the money goes into the Child Development Centers. I'm pretty sure that bases that said "Just go shop at WalMart. Child Development Center closes 1 Oct due to lack of funding." would be really crappy places to be for our troops with young kids. I'm not saying purchase every roll of TP and every tool at AAFES...I'm saying know where the money goes. I can handle paying $0.50 extra for a bag of dog food knowing that the profit goes to SSgt Snuffy's toddler vice to Bentonville.

Then we should get rid of AAFEES and the CDC. Let some outside company come in and run a daycare, charge them rent and put the rent profits towards SSgt Snuffy's kids. Why do we need a chain of 14 stores to support this when we could do it better with one business that we don't even have to worry about running? We contract everything else out. Why not the stuff that has little mission impact?

edit: dangling particples, modifiers and sentence ending prepositions

Edited August 28, 2011 by sky_king

[Dupe]

Why not the stuff that has little mission impact?

You don't think having affordable and accesable child care on base has mission impact?

[jango220]

Saw this gem back in June.

[pitts2112]

Having been in CE, I might be able to shed some light on why they're renovating rather than building a new BX. It's about the funding regulations mandated by Congress.

I'm pretty sure AAFES and DECA have to follow standard government construction rules, as dicked up as they are. What you're seeing is actually all driven by Congress, not AFFES, not DECA, and not Big Blue.

There're two pots of money - MILOCON (Military Construction) and O&M (Ops and Maintenance). With O&M, base and Majcom spending authority is pretty high, into the $ millions, IIRC, the timelines for funding are much shorter, and the amount of discretion in how the budget is spent is much greater at base and Majcom level.

For MILCON, the funding limit at SECAF level used to be $300K back in the 90s, but is likely to be about $500K now. In either case, it's about enough to build a small garden shed and not much else. Any "new" construction costing more than that and the project has to go into the DOD's budget to Congress as an individual line item with full cost estimates, project justification, and environmental assessment. Typically it takes 3-5 years from concept to funding approval to go the MILCON route.

What that means is that CE gets pretty creative in how they classify work. I can't remember all the specific rules, but they're something like, if you can keep 51% of a structure, you can do nearly anything you like under the O&M rules because, the logic goes, you're merely maintaining an existing facility. So, you keep the shell and foundation of the BX, rip out and replace everything else. You could even put on a small addition to the building if you wanted but that addition would have to be costed out separately and can't cost more than $500K or it has to go into the Congressional budget and takes years.

There was the case of the Ramstein O'Club back in the late 80s where everything of the old club was demolished except one wall and from that was built an entirely new club under O&M rules, all as a way to circumvent the MILCON rules. That was taking the piss and some wrists got slapped over that one.

I'm not necessarily trying to defend my CE brethren, because CE can still be pretty screwed up, but if you work in CE for very long you become extremely adept at "working the grey zone" of the regulations and CE actually delivers quite a lot given the rules they have to bend every day.

I include this only so you can direct your fully justified anger at the right target - Congress.

Oh, yeah, and I hated AAFES as much as some of you. Self-absorbed thieving bastards, was my view, and hanging was too good for the lot of them. When they tried to have the squadron snack fridges shut down or run by themselves because they saw them as competition was when they really just went way over the line.

[Mitch Weaver]

Good for them. Of all the BX's I've ever been to, McConnell was, by far, the worst.

[tac airlifter]

Having been in CE, I might be able to shed some light on why they're renovating rather than building a new BX.

Oh, yeah, and I hated AAFES as much as some of you. Self-absorbed thieving bastards, was my view, and hanging was too good for the lot of them. When they tried to have the squadron snack fridges shut down or run by themselves because they saw them as competition was when they really just went way over the line.

Great post man, thanks. I'm totally ignorant of the entire funding process so that helped. Seems like everywhere I look good people are gaming the rules to get the mission accomplished inside a bureaucracy.

[WheelzUp]

Good for them. Of all the BX's I've ever been to, McConnell was, by far, the worst.

Ever been to Beale?

[disgruntledemployee]

LRAFB got a new BX, and with it a gun counter. And thats a nice perk. They have a good selection and can order quite a bit more. When the local, county, and state sales tax is running close to 10%, getting that new M4 tax free is wonderful. Although, I wish they did FFL transfers.

But back to your topic. No one is making you shop at the BX, right? Commissary either? Think you can get the best grocery bill at Walmart, go for it. Want to buy your new TV at best buy, no one is stopping you. Don't like Anthony's pizza (yuk!), head off base for lunch, or make your own with your great value walmart ham and cheese. How about the class 6? Is thay your source for beer and booze? AAFEES gas station, is that where you fill up?

Also, gov't construction is pretty expensive compares to private companies. Gov't pays a high wage (Davis-Bacon) for workers on those jobs.

Out

[Majestik Møøse]

...How about the class 6? Is thay your source for beer and booze? AAFEES gas station, is that where you fill up?

Whoa whoa whoa, nobody said anything about shuttering the Class Six. Or the gas station for that matter. That shit saves me 5 bucks a month!

[osulax05]

I think Pitts described AAFES errr myexchange to a T as self absorbed. AAFES managed to get themselves on my vMPF outprocessing checklist because people were running up huge debts on their military star card and now everybody has to come in to outprocess. Not call, not email, come in so they can verify your star card balance. I called to tell them to sign me off since I don't have a star card and the old (Asian) lady gave me this long winded reason why she couldn't do it without me present. WTFO?!?!

[sky_king]

You don't think having affordable and accesable child care on base has mission impact?

OK, so my word choice wasn't accurate. Affordable on-base child care is important. But give me one example on the government doing anything better than private sector. What I'm saying is, close the CDC. Allow "Kidz Incorporated Child Care" to rent the building and charge normal rates. The rent from the building goes into upkeep and reduced costs for lower income individuals. The DOD has bigger fish to fry than running a day care.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

The BX/PX, Commissary and other on-base establishments no longer represent the "deal" that it used to be. I remember as a dependent that those places were noticeably cheaper than off-base locations...that and it was the 1970/80s and giant super stores where you can shop in bulk and find anything weren't really in existence back then either.

I'd shop at the commissary if it weren't for the goofy operating hours and the masses of retirees and lack of registers to check out at, because they often have cheaper prices (if by not that much). The BX...it's about the same cost shopping off base, tax included, and they rarely have the things I want in stock. CDC? I used to keep my kids on base because it was convenient but then I discovered that there ARE good child care facilities off base and they are WAY cheaper (like nearly 50% cheaper). Plus my kids like the day care they go to off base better, in all honesty. About the only thing the CDC represents as a "good deal" is the cheaper costs for junior dudes (and it's still about the same as going off base), but that's only because the NCOs and officers subsidize the lower prices for junior enlisted.

If anyone was going to take advantage of the perceived "good deals" we have on base it would be me, having been a military brat all my life...but the reality is it's not that way anymore. Sure, here and there you might find a few good deals. But it's not worth my time to swing by the BX every time just in case it might be that 5-10% chance I could save a couple bucks. I'd save more in gas just driving directly to an off-base establishment. Speaking of fuel, there are times buying gas at AAFES is slightly cheaper, but again, many times I can find gas a few cents cheaper off base...or at least damn near at the same cost.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Hueypilot812