Operating IMC in a MOA

[Ferg]

Where can I find guidance on operating in a MOA while in IMC? Let's say I enter the top of a MOA at FL230 and there's a solid deck from FL180-190 that I want to descend through in order to operate below. I am on an IFR flight plan, but I'm not talking to or actively being controlled by ATC (I'm on a discrete frequency and monitoring Guard). I've been told different things from different folks - one is that you need to remain VMC while in the MOA, abiding by Class E airspace VFR cloud clearances. The other is that you can enter IMC because you're on an IFR flight plan.

I know which one I think is right, but I'm looking for something in writing to back up the correct answer. I've looked through 11-202, GP, and AP/1A - no luck.

[Learjetter]

I vote there's no requirement to remain VMC in a conus MOA under radar coverage (unless your MAJCOM/unit Or MOA rules requires it). You're on an IFR flight plan on a special-use airspace delay, and will be deconflicted from participating IFR traffic by ATC. Non-participating VFR traffic should be maintaining the cloud clearances (or should be smart enough stay clear of the MOA while it's active), so the main threat is an illegal VFR non-squawking pilot in IMC in the MOA. My $.02.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Learjetter

[Guest cody6766]

That sounds right, especially after hearing about several T-6 guys searching for clear breaks in the pensacola south MOA to try to get work done. Obviously they were flying w/in their boundaries and not doing loops and shit. I'd say looking for clear air is fine, but I'm just a newbie with nothing but a few stories to support my claims.

[GBock]

FWIW, MOAs are established outside of Class A airspace. In the US, if you think you're in a MOA above FL180, you're actually in an ATCAA (Air Traffic Control Assigned Airspace) under a MOU between the military and controlling agency. You HAVE TO be on an IFR flight plan in an ATCAA above FL180. To the best of my knowledge, there is no requirement to maintain VMC in either an ATCAA or MOA unless specifically noted in the MOU and/or FLIP, NOTAMS, local procedures, etc.

[Hacker]

That sounds right, especially after hearing about several T-6 guys searching for clear breaks in the pensacola south MOA to try to get work done.

I don't believe that the Navy sends "contact" style rides out on IFR flight plans.

[magnetfreezer]

I don't believe that the Navy sends "contact" style rides out on IFR flight plans.

We did on the nav side at least (took off VFR only for the low-level rides since it was needed anyway).

[Muscle2002]

In every MOA I've operated in (East Coast), ATC specifically stated to maintain VFR (note: I was still on an IFR flight plan) within the confines of the MOA.

The way I've seen it done is to stay on ATC's active controlling freq (as opposed to switching to the area monitoring freq), tell them you are currently IMC, are currently maneuvering for VMC airspace and request radar monitoring.

In restricted airspace, you are most definitely able to be IMC as other aircraft may only enter by approval from the controlling agency..MOAs do not have that procedural capability of preventing stranger traffic from entering VFR (obviously, someone could enter the restricted airspace without clearance, but it may be the last time they fly for awhile).

Edited September 18, 2011 by Muscle2002

[GBock]

FAA JO 7610.4 spells out controller responsibilities for MOA/ATCAA procedures. Unless something has recently changed, nowhere in it does it tell the controller to tell the pilot to maintain VFR. For them to say that, especially if you are on an IFR flight plan, is retarded.

EDIT: Unless if that is local operating procedures and contained in the MOU/LOA, of course.

Edited September 18, 2011 by GBock

[Guest cody6766]

I don't believe that the Navy sends "contact" style rides out on IFR flight plans.

AF, not Navy. Nobody went anywhere w/o being on an IFR flight plan while I was riding along.

[Muscle2002]

FAA JO 7610.4 spells out controller responsibilities for MOA/ATCAA procedures. Unless something has recently changed, nowhere in it does it tell the controller to tell the pilot to maintain VFR. For them to say that, especially if you are on an IFR flight plan, is retarded.

EDIT: Unless if that is local operating procedures and contained in the MOU/LOA, of course.

The preponderance of the controllers here are trainees, which means you could hear anything over the radio!

Edited September 19, 2011 by Muscle2002

[RangerMateo]

Operating in a MOA while IFR (Which we always are at Vance...) is no different than operating in Class E airspace anywhere else while IFR. It just doesn't seem that way, but when the controller tells you that you are "Cleared the Block Area 5 Low" (at Vance) it is tantamount to "Vandy XX maintain block 10,000 to 14,000 between the Vance 311 and Vance 326 radial, 48 nm to 68 nm". Now, if the specific MOA publishes its own instructions obviously that applies, but for a generic MOA if you're on an IFR clearance you're IFR.

[snafu]

Where can I find guidance on operating in a MOA while in IMC? Let's say I enter the top of a MOA at FL230 and there's a solid deck from FL180-190 that I want to descend through in order to operate below. I am on an IFR flight plan, but I'm not talking to or actively being controlled by ATC (I'm on a discrete frequency and monitoring Guard). I've been told different things from different folks - one is that you need to remain VMC while in the MOA, abiding by Class E airspace VFR cloud clearances. The other is that you can enter IMC because you're on an IFR flight plan.

I think the example here is cut and dry that you are cleared through the weather. However, what was the clearance? If it was "cleared the block 8H" then you can proceed into IMC imho. If they said "cleared the block 8H remain VMC" then it depends if you accept that clearance or not. IFR flight plan, IFR squawk, and you were given a maneuvering block/area. The MOA is just "special" to let civilians they can play if they are VFR. Part of the problem I think is the "remain VMC" is something a controller can add on and if you accept it, then that alleviates their responsibilities if they miss a traffic call to you. Since you are see and avoid now. Otherwise, why do we have radar release points at UPT bases to squawk VFR contact tower/rsu? The only thing I can think of, reg wise like you asked, would be the 11-2 Vol# where specific spins/training rules apply for the maneuvers that require 3 vis or clear of clouds. This would be my argument if I was flight violated for this reason at least.

[DEVIL]

I don't believe that the Navy sends "contact" style rides out on IFR flight plans.

They do.

[brabus]

but for a generic MOA if you're on an IFR clearance you're IFR.

I agree you are still under an IFR clearance, but most, if not all MOAs, you will be required to be talking to some sort of controlling agency while IMC, which may be center or a tactical control agency if local regs allows. Maybe I misunderstood your intent, but I don't think you are legit to just go cruising around IMC whenever you want just because you still have an open IFR flight plan. You're going to have to talk to somebody to get clearance or in some cases, "use all possible sources" to clear the airspace before you transition through IMC. Thought I think the biggest point is this can be very different depending on where you're flying...Oklahoma is not the same as Asia, is not the same as Europe, is not the same as Alaska, etc. Obviously restricted areas are a different animal.

Edited October 10, 2011 by brabus

[RangerMateo]

I agree you are still under an IFR clearance, but most, if not all MOAs, you will be required to be talking to some sort of controlling agency while IMC, which may be center or a tactical control agency if local regs allows. Maybe I misunderstood your intent, but I don't think you are legit to just go cruising around IMC whenever you want just because you still have an open IFR flight plan.

What is your reference for that? Also, being on discrete is still considered "talking" to a controlling agency since they can get ahold of you for traffic advisories and amended clearances...not that there is a requirement for that to be IMC either. In fact, a good example is class G airspace in which can you can be on an IFR flight plan, in IMC and have no requirement to be talking to ATC. Anytime someone departs from an uncontrolled field with weather less than 700 or 1200 (depending on the type of airfield and assuming it's not a dashed magenta airfield) you are in Class G airspace in IMC with an active clearance (that you got from FSS before departure). The PIC is the clearance authority. In places where G goes higher (think mountains and brown shady stuff on the low charts) you can technically transit the Class G on an IFR flight plan in IMC and again, you are the clearance authority. The only restrictions there are that you had to have "asked" ATC for that routing via your flight plan and they can not just send you trucking through it. If that sounds uncomfortable it should be...but again it's really no different than the guy on departure saying "RADAR contact". Full responsibility for terrain and obstacle avoidance is still on the PIC (Even in IMC) until you get the first navigational vector from ATC...at which point it becomes a shared responsibility.

Being in a MOA means nothing special except you can do a few things like break speed limits...unless it is specifically addressed in the AP/1 or local guidance, you don't have to do anything special to enter IMC as long as you are IFR and are flying IAW your clearance (direct, block, etc). We do it everyday and sometimes with our "receiver" 1000' below us in trail trying to find clear air to do our rendezvous.

edit: removed ATCCA reference as I just noticed someone else already addressed that.

What really kills be in all of this is the hard on that Big Blue has for IFR ops. Our radar went down on a clear blue day and our flying machine stopped. No MOAs, individual releases from ZKC, whole nine yards. I suggested that we just stay on our local C&C freq and self-deconflict (Since we all have TCAS and GPS, at least in the T-1 world), work the MOAs VFR and then fly VFR to where ever we wanted to shoot approaches and pick up a local (Which I guess isn't that uncommon at Pensacola). People looked at me like I was Copernicus going on about the earth not being the center of the universe.

Edited October 10, 2011 by RangerMateo

[RangerMateo]

In restricted airspace, you are most definitely able to be IMC as other aircraft may only enter by approval from the controlling agency..MOAs do not have that procedural capability of preventing stranger traffic from entering VFR (obviously, someone could enter the restricted airspace without clearance, but it may be the last time they fly for awhile).

If VFR traffic enters your MOA, then the safest place to be is IMC since by definition they can't be there...=) IFR traffic usually will not be routed through the MOA and if they are deconfliction is done via ATC (happens every day here, they'll take away part of our altitude block until the traffic is clear). No different than VFR traffic from operating around you below 18k while you're IFR either and that's the purpose for the VFR cloud clearances, to allow enough time for IFR traffic to pop out, see the VFR dude (and vice versa) and avoid each other.

[nunya]

... work the MOAs VFR and then fly VFR to where ever we wanted to shoot approaches and pick up a local (Which I guess isn't that uncommon at Pensacola). People looked at me like I was Copernicus going on about the earth not being the center of the universe.

Big Blue could definitely learn a thing or two from the Navy about VFR ops. They might even start stocking these crazy things called "sectionals" in the pubs room.

[Guest]

Big Blue could definitely learn a thing or two from the Navy about VFR ops. They might even start stocking these crazy things called "sectionals" in the pubs room.

Don't blame Big Blue.

I've never been in a pubs room that didn't have sectionals.

[Homestar]

I blame AFI 11-202V3 para 8.1. My community has little justification for VFR training outside the local pattern. Other communities have more of a need for VFR training and are more proficient with the rules.

[brabus]

Also, being on discrete is still considered "talking" to a controlling agency since they can get ahold of you for traffic advisories and amended clearances...not that there is a requirement for that to be IMC either.

Sure, I guess that's how the airspace in Oklahoma operates. You have to realize Oklahoma is not representative of the rest of the world, or even other parts of America. Bottom line is MOA rules can be very different depending on where you are, so before flying IMC in a MOA, I'm just advocating people actually check out the local regs on it...or you can take the chance and scoff it, but that's up to you.

What really kills be in all of this is the hard on that Big Blue has for IFR ops. Our radar went down on a clear blue day and our flying machine stopped. No MOAs, individual releases from ZKC, whole nine yards. I suggested that we just stay on our local C&C freq and self-deconflict (Since we all have TCAS and GPS, at least in the T-1 world), work the MOAs VFR and then fly VFR to where ever we wanted to shoot approaches and pick up a local (Which I guess isn't that uncommon at Pensacola). People looked at me like I was Copernicus going on about the earth not being the center of the universe.

That sucks dude. We fly VFR quite a lot, but again, guess it depends on the community and where you're flying. I agree though, the hard-on for IFR can be ridiculous sometimes. Good thing the "max extent" verbiage is bendable...have a reason for flying VFR and who's to say you're wrong?

[GovernmentMan]

At DLF the only time I remember the issue coming up was when we had Magoos (area solos) assigned to areas with the potential for IMC. They simply told us to stay VMC, but that sounds more like the SOF trying to spare some kid an episode of spacial-D when there is nobody there to help him. Just speculating, since I don't remember there being a policy one way or the other.

[Toro]

At DLF the only time I remember the issue coming up was when we had Magoos (area solos) assigned to areas with the potential for IMC. They simply told us to stay VMC, but that sounds more like the SOF trying to spare some kid an episode of spacial-D when there is nobody there to help him. Just speculating, since I don't remember there being a policy one way or the other.

That's a little different. Solos aren't qualified pilots and have no weather rating, so they need to stay VMC.

[Tulsa]

II. OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES A. SCHEDULING AND COORDINATION:

1. Each MOA has a designated military office responsible for scheduling all military flights for use of that area. Areas shall not be used for military training unless scheduled.

2. Special conditions of use and procedures for each MOA are established by letter of agreement between local military authority and concerned ATC facility. The scheduling office will advise all scheduled military users of the operating procedures contained in the letter of agreement.

3. Military operations in excess of 250 Kt below 10,000' should be conducted in Special Use Airspace to the maximum extent

possible.

B. FLIGHT PROCEDURES:

1. Military training operations within MOAs shall be conducted in accordance with the letter of agreement.

2. Although not required, ATC or a military radar unit may provide advisory/monitoring/separation services within the MOA. However, the pilot is responsible for remaining within the area and exercising "see and avoid" during visual conditions.

I pulled the above from FLIP AP/1A MOA section. What are folks thoughts on the highlighted sections? My take is use see and avoid which would necessitate VMC conditions, unless there is a LOA to operate IMC between base and controlling agency or center. This is about the only place I've been able to find something discussing this issue. The whole VMC/IMC question would get asked about every 6-9 months or so back at. Our LOA with Center did not have an operate in IMC conditions section spelled out, so we told folks to push back to ATC, climb/descend as necessary, and then go about your training.

[Learjetter]

I disagree. Doesn't say I can't be IMC, only that I must see and avoid during VMC. I'm on an IFR flight plan on a special-use airspace delay. Unless the local rules or LOA prevent it, as a rated pilot, I'm perfectly legal to be IMC in a MOA.

[Seriously]

I disagree. Doesn't say I can't be IMC, only that I must see and avoid during VMC. I'm on an IFR flight plan on a special-use airspace delay. Unless the local rules or LOA prevent it, as a rated pilot, I'm perfectly legal to be IMC in a MOA.

Exactly. If you're IMC in the MOA, then any traffic that is a potential hazard is going to be on an IFR clearance and under the control of ATC. When you're VMC in the MOA, conflicting traffic could be VFR talking to no one.