Herks: impressions of MPD

[slacker]

Originally posted by herk28:

Personally, I think this "getting to your unit and not knowing how to be a CP" talk is a bunch of crap. I don't know if anybody has noticed, but a copilot doesn't really do all that much. It takes about 1/2 a tac ride (if that) at your new squadron to pick up on all these "traditional CP duties." I still have yet to figure out exactly what they did not teach us MPD guys that they used to teach traditional Co's.

Gear up: check (learned it in UPT)

Talk to ATC: check (learned it in UPT)

Run the checklists: N/A

Being a CP = not that hard

Above is the proof you need why the MPD program sucks a$$. 1/2 a TAC ride to be a good copilot? You illustrated my point perfectly. Thanks.

[Guest KoolKat]

While I can agree that that task load is sillidiculously far from complete (i.e. with the gear come the flaps, and with the ATC calls come DZ clearances,) by a LONG shot. Even adding those 2 things doesn't help it.

But, I have to personally disagree that it's ALL the MPD program's fault. However, I do think the additional emphasis on left-seat/AC stuff, detracts from CP duties and that's WRONG. It's gone so far as the insturctors don't even critic your performance as a CP beyond the MINIMUM tasks.

However, that doesn't mean dudes can't be taking the opportunity to practice being a good co-pilot while they're there. (Although, there should be ALOT MORE emphasis on what one of those "good co-pilots" actually is, 'cause some guys don't know.) They still see the IP in corpus as a CP, ugh.

I would except to get a pretty crappy rep after the first flight if I showed up thinking all I had to do was operated the hydraulic panel, gear, flaps and make radio calls to ATC...that clearly doesn't make a good co-pilot. Hell, that doesn't even make a co-pilot, the AC could do that shit all by himself without you...BUT, he shouldn't have to, he has other, more important things to think about.

I always figured that being a good co-pilot was to accomplish all of the pilot-style b1tch work, and do it right the first time, so my AC never has to think about it, and still have enough SA to back the AC up. All the AC should have to do is fly the plane, (when he wants too,) make decisions about the aircraft, the misson, and land the plane (if he wants to, or HAS to.)

I always figured that was the point of my job. I know how to Take-off, fly around, do appraoches, and land, I even know how to flip the switches & talk on the radio; BUT, that's all I know. And what I don't know takes a whole lot more brain cells than what I do. So I do those things, so that his workload is such that he can make the best decisions he can, and hopefully the mission gets accomplished in the best possible fashion.

There seems to be ALOT of complaining about brand new CPs (not that even a good co-pilot isn't going to take plenty of harrasment,) regardless of if they're MPD or TRAD...I can understand why; I can see that when I'm sitting in the left seat and I have a co-pilot (basically, dead weight.) I'm not in anyway surprised that THAT isn't operationally good enough.

EDIT: I've had Sims where the instructor didn't even require the CP to tune the radios, make any radio calls, or back up the navigiation. Wow, come to think of it, I'm not even sure what was required of him beyond the gear, flaps, ADS button and the green light. Wow.

It would be nice if someone would take the time to make a list of things that, historically, I'm not expected to be prepared to do. Only time will tell, but I consider myself to be "helpful, if not good" while I'm sitting over there, and have plenty of brain cells left while doing it to be even more helpful.

But, that's the problem isn't it. Dummy-head in the right seat can't do something s/he never knew they were supposed to do, becuase nobody ever bothered to tell them.

Being a co-pilot ISN't hard, it's an ass pain to do it well, but if you don't do it, it's not because it's hard, it's because your either lazy or stupid.

BENDY

[ 18. March 2006, 16:02: Message edited by: Bender ]

[Guest lovelacm]

One of the interesting things about being a "good copigglet" that I don't hear many folks talk about is the activities that happen outside of the plane.

Here's a short laundry list for your enjoyment:

- The CP should be proactive when a tasking (flagpole or real-life mission.. doesn't matter) comes down. - This includes pulling the Frag (Form 59), checking the Dips, checking/working the flight plan (with the Nav, if you've got that luxury), thinking about crew day limitations and latest T/O + LND times - plus info on possible waivers, checking with ATOC or other agencies about cargo/pax (have we talked with the user?), are we staying overnight? (and all the fun that goes along with that... billeting, fuel, comsec storage, etc.)... I could go on and on.

A good copilot will be proactive and basically try to get all the information possible, cover all the bases, and then check in with their AC to pass along the status and take direction. I can't tell you how good it felt (and it was a little strange, too) when I'd walk into the flight planning room at my old squadron after returning from AC Upgrade to find that my CP had everything nailed down for an upcoming mission... I'd throw out ideas and questions and he/she would either give me answers or we'd divvy up who'd go get 'em. I had plenty of time to work the big picture stuff and take care of any coordination with the DO and TACC/AMOCC/AMD/Whoever...

Whatcha' think 'bout that? I know... sort of a stream-of-consciousness there... Sorry 'bout that.

Cheers!

Linda

[Mambo]

Linda, you hit the nail on the head (yes, I said head). All those things you mentioned that the copilot should be doing, is what makes a good A/C later on.

[Guest KoolKat]

Thanks, Linda. Good stuff. That all does definitly fall under pilot-style b1tch-work. :D

BENDY

[HerkDerka]

Being a CP isn't hard...but being a GOOD CP is (reference Linda's post).

Just my two cents, the MPD program is a wash. For two reasons, job knowledge and attitude.

The main gripe about the program is that guys are being poorly trained. We're not getting a good product from the schoolhouse. It extends the workload of the IPs and even the senior CPs trying to get these dudes trained up so they won't be a sack of potatoes in the right seat when they go on their first rote. I mean it's no biggie for an IP to handle a CP who doesn't know anything, standard ops, but it's a different story when the CP doesn't even know the basics of being a CP.

Now I've seen some mopey dopes who knew the score and started learning all they could about the right seat on day one. But I've also seen the guys who thought they already know everything because they were trained in the left seat.

So basically MPDs are being trained for a job they aren't going to do for awhile. They'll fly left seat, but only at home for their two or three LPSs or on a CS sortie.

Another ***** is that by the program flow, an MPD's first checkride is a right seat checkride. They're getting a checkride in something they've barely been trained for.

As I mentioned the second part is attitude.

It's normal to have a new guy show up thinking he knows something, but that normally gets taken care of early by the IPs. But MPD is bringing a new kind of animal.

I came into the Herk at the end of the "keep your mouth shut for a year and then keep it shut for another six months" copilot era. Now we've got some guys coming in who not only have trouble their man-pleasers shut, but can only repeat one statement: "Am I in the left seat today?"

It used to be the CPs taking care of each other. Friday afternoon study sessions with a case of beer cracked. Now we've got MPDs who don't want to participate and actually learn something since they are such experienced left seaters. Not to mention that, but it's just bad form when you've got brand new guys acting like and verbal protesting that they are better than copilots who have in the neighborhood of 1000 hours, around 2 years in the squadron, and around four desert rotes under their belt.

Now Mopey Dopes aren't bad guys, they're just getting a bad thing from the Rock. The sim instructors at the Rock are convincing the new guys that they will be an AC when they step in the door of their squadron. They're not expecting to be the sponge that they should be.

We were having some CP ground training for the new guys prior to the last rote and one of the few (at the time) mopey dopes didn't bother to show up. When I called him to ask him where he was, his reply was simple. "Oh, I'm not a copilot". I about shit a basketball.

Now before anyone gets too testy, most of those statements are generalizations. I've seen plenty of MPD who are good guys and know what's going on. But I've seen a few guys who were completely led astray by the program.

I don't have any gripes about the MPDs, just about the program itself.

The MPD program is a great thing for the strat community, but it has no place in tac for now.

HD

[ 18. March 2006, 20:48: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Hydro130:

Why can't units ACTUALLY put traditional Cos in the left seat at 500 hours (and not just 2 weeks from their AC school date), work them out for 6 months there and do a very simple in-house upgrade? 95% of copilots are very capable of that. Still eliminates the need for a trip back to The Rock for formal AC school and is a better way to keep idiot copilots in limbo for upgrades

A-freaking-men. No need to waste money by sending guys to "assault and taxi" school where they learn nothing about actually being an AC. Just continue what they were doing for their AC prep folder in-house. Last time I checked, we have IPs to do the flying with, sims and sim instructors on site for the GT. All the bases are covered.

HD

[Guest TheBurt]

MPD pretty much sucks for the home unit. We are having to basically retrain the guy. Yeah, it's saving money (somebody's metrix) for someones pot of money, and costing more at another, well, just send them to us after UPT then, and save the trouble of even having a schoolhouse because the product we are getting is broke. This program is a serious waste of funds.

[FourFans]

HerkaDerka: Sorry, but I'm getting testy. I understand you're obviously an expert on the MPD program seeing how you didn't go through it nor have you taught dudes in it, BUT...

I don't have any gripes about the MPDs, just about the program itself.

Really?

Now we've got some guys coming in who not only have trouble their man-pleasers shut, but can only repeat one statement: "Am I in the left seat today?"

Now we've got MPDs who don't want to participate and actually learn something since they are such experienced left seaters. Not to mention that, but it's just bad form when you've got brand new guys acting like and verbal protesting that they are better than copilots who have in the neighborhood of 1000 hours, around 2 years in the squadron, and around four desert rotes under their belt.

We were having some CP ground training for the new guys prior to the last rote and one of the few (at the time) mopey dopes didn't bother to show up. When I called him to ask him where he was, his reply was simple. "Oh, I'm not a copilot". I about shit a basketball.

Nice objective critiques.

Good job separating the dickweeds from the program they went through.

I noticed you didn't mention another group of people. You know, those 2 year CP who still can't load secures right, can't kept track of their secrets bag, and don't know about half of the stuff on Linda's laundry list above.

Face it, there are good and bad CP/FP all over the place, so don't go pinning bad habits on MPD dudes just because they took a different road than you.

All the instructors at the Rock made it abundantly clear that FPs still don't know jack and have to study their asses off. But that doesn't mean the non-strivers didn't hear it just like they always haven't heard it.

It used to be the CPs taking care of each other.

If that's still the case, you must be with some bad dudes. All we LTs at my station take care of each other. Acronymes aside, those who know tell those who don't, and we are all smarter in the end. That how it should be.

MPD dudes are just like anyone else brand new the Herk, we have lot of learning to do. Sadly, humility isn't standard issue at any school house and some people will never learn it. That's life.

SO, if you want to rag on guys that don't do their job. Fine.

If you want to rag on the MPD program's faults, Fine.

But just because we're MPD dudes doesn't mean we're sh!tbags. Thanks for the stereotype though.

[ 23. March 2006, 20:59: Message edited by: FourFans130 ]

[HerkDerka]

You know, I could be nice about this but:

ARE YOU BLIND OR JUST STUPID?

If you want to rag on the MPD program's faults, Fine.

But just because we're MPD dudes doesn't mean we're sh!tbags. Thanks for the stereotype though.

Did you even read my post? Let's revisit a few quotes from it.

Now Mopey Dopes aren't bad guys, they're just getting a bad thing from the Rock

I've seen plenty of MPD who are good guys and know what's going on. But I've seen a few guys who were completely led astray by the program.

Wow, I was really slamming those MPDs wasn't I? Everything in that post was talking about how the program itself is a waste. In what part of that post did I ever say it was the MPD's fault? Not once.

Read posts before you reply to them. It will serve you better.

HD

[ 24. March 2006, 03:22: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[FourFans]

Knock It Off, Knock It Off, Co-pilots Knock it Off

FourFans Knock It Off

Before this gets ugly. We'll settle this elsewhere.

BTW Bender, the correct phrase is "TARD FIGHT!"

[Rocker]

All I know is I keep forgetting to turn off the damn aux pump after gear up and forgetting to turn it on after gear down. But I can taxi with the best of 'em (not that I'm allowed to). Thanks, Little Rock!

[HerkDerka]

"2" Knock It Off.

Good call.

HD

[Guest hockeymv]

Using the search funct0ion and dragging up old dirt here, but here goes.

So the first MPD guys have been around for almost a year since the program stood up at Little Rock. How have the squadrons been maintaining currencies with deployments and such? Last I've heard (my next stop is 11-2c-130) Pro checks are done in the left seat w/ 3 engine work and tac checks are in the right.

Just looking to see what the other MPD's have gotten thus far. Sq/Wing Stan/Eval types, feel free to chime in, as it seems every base has it's own 'nuances' to the regs.

Thanks.

[HerkDerka]

MPD's aren't getting the amount of left seat time that the program is designed for. Crude reality of the ops tempo. When you get back from a rote, the EPs and IPS have to get recurrent to get the rest of the squadron recurrent. The MPDs tend to not get a lot of priority other than your currencies.

But that will change up as the number of right-seaters starts to dwindle.

All of your pro checks are done in the left seat, your first tac check is in the right.

HD

[WHAP]

Heres some funny shit from a guy who with any luck will not be an MPD stud after tmw. I have never loaded secures, never. Half (2 out of 4) of my "pilot not flying" rides were done in the left seat.

Do i feel like I am going to be able to work the right seat? Yeah Ill figure it out with some help at my unit. But ive gotten real good in 6 months at sitting in the left seat and maintaining altitude, airspeed, and heading, all while pretending to know exactly what was going on while the instructor made most of my decisions for me.

4fans, you shouldnt be offending anybody. Ive learned something in my 35 hours in the herk. There is a reason it takes 750 minimum to become an AC (i think that numbers right, but ive never looked it up). The last rumor at the 62 was that a conference would take place this month and they want to make the MPD program leftseat for pro and right seat for tac. Ill admit ive enjoyed my left seat flying, but im going to the desert this fall, and I wish i knew more about the right seat.

Edit my spelling sucks

[ 07. June 2006, 19:08: Message edited by: WHAP ]

[Crog]

The MPD program fails to properly prepare the students for their wartime mission (which, by reg, has them in the right seat). With a motivated instructor who is basically working his/her ass off in the right seat, a new MPD pilot can perform passably in the left seat on Pro sorties. I'm assuming this is how the gradebooks are getting through LRF.

This said, we've been floored by how poorly the MPD pilots are doing in the right seat during unit indoc. I would compare it to about the 3rd ride of CP school, which is not a coincidence based on the design of the FTU MPD program. I do not blame this problem on the MPD candidate, or the hapless schoolhouse instructor who has to sell this crap. Even certain people at AMC training will admit this is a disaster (off the record), mostly because "the C-17/C-5 template goes awry when you apply it to the all-tac C-130 fleet". I will mention that I have not heard one positive thing about this program with the exception that "it saves money", and theoretically, the schoolhouse can "finally" get caught up. I find the last part disturbing, because the FTU has been behind since Leo Sullivan flew Herks, and I suspect if it ever did get caught up, it would only lead to one of the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse fracturing.....

However, I don't think it's going away. "It saves money" for more Tankers/C-17s/F-22's (never mind that "CP" unit indoc is approaching the same hours/duration as the old FTU - that's a Sq problem), and AMC is basically sick of the C-130 MPD program getting bashed. Their solution was to tightly limit who can provide feedback on the program. If you don't like the complaints, stick your fingers in your ears.....

Just because it wasn't the way you were trained doesn't mean it's bad. But, if the squadron can't get your unit indoc performance in your "wartime seat" to an acceptable level in a few rides, then the program is failing the student, fellow crewmembers, and the needs of the Air Force.

[Guest Hydro130]

For the record, check out this thread start to finish...

Good words from Crog though, thanks!

Cheers, Hydro

[herkbum]

There is so much more to being an AC than just sitting in the left seat!! Flying from the left seat is mainly different in the t/o&landing picture, nose-wheel steering, sitting closer to the throttles, and flying with the opposite hand. What makes you an AC is the ability to make decisions. Not only decisions in the airplane, but how to take care of a crew during RON's and on deployments. MPD or CP doesn't make a rat's ass difference if they don't have experience as a CREWMEMBER! You can't learn how to be a crewmember in 35 hours @ LRF! This comes from flying the line, learning the mission by actually doing the mission; seeing different situations and what decisions were made to remedy those situations. That is why a pilot needs to spend about 1000 hrs in the RIGHT seat, learning the Herk and it's mission. Then you can move over to the left seat and the decision-making that goes along with having the A code behind your name.

What is a good copilot, what Linda stated above is an excellent start. Coming out of LRF as a copilot, I knew how to file an 1801 & how to read a Form 59, but I was a prior navigator. Otherwise, I would have been clueless. You need to spend your time in the right seat learning to do these things, in addition to know about oceanic clearances, position reports, talking on HF, checking dip-cleared routing, expecting what controllers (both foreign and domestic) are likely to clear you to. Help the nav plan the flight, get with the loads and learn the Form F and how they plan on loading the airplane. Basically, as I said earlier, learn to be a crewmember before you lead the crew.

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Crog:

But, if the squadron can't get your unit indoc performance in your "wartime seat" to an acceptable level in a few rides, then the program is failing the student, fellow crewmembers, and the needs of the Air Force.

Originally posted by herkbum:

There is so much more to being an AC than just sitting in the left seat!!

Well done.

HD

[JS]

Originally posted by herkbum:

There is so much more to being an AC than just sitting in the left seat!!

.... What makes you an AC is the ability to make decisions.

Not many people - MPD fans or not - will disagree with you there.

Originally posted by herkbum:

I knew how to file an 1801 & how to read a Form 59,.....

.....in addition to know about oceanic clearances, position reports, talking on HF, checking dip-cleared routing, expecting what controllers (both foreign and domestic) ......

......get with the loads and learn the Form F and how they plan on loading the airplane. Basically, as I said earlier, learn to be a crewmember before you lead the crew.

But I do wonder about your logic here. Why can a MPD guy not do all of the aforementioned "copilot" duties? Just because someone is qualified in both seats does not mean that they are not learning basic planning and traditional copilot duties.

I just don't see why MPD guys can't "be quiet," or "be a sponge," and so on for the first 750 hours so they can observe the day to day operations on their way to becoming aircraft commanders. Simply because a new guy flies every 5th ride or so in the left seat does not preclude that person from being a humble, eager to learn, know-when-to-speak guy.

[herkbum]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by herkbum:

I knew how to file an 1801 & how to read a Form 59,.....

.....in addition to know about oceanic clearances, position reports, talking on HF, checking dip-cleared routing, expecting what controllers (both foreign and domestic) ......

......get with the loads and learn the Form F and how they plan on loading the airplane. Basically, as I said earlier, learn to be a crewmember before you lead the crew.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But I do wonder about your logic here. Why can a MPD guy not do all of the aforementioned "copilot" duties? Just because someone is qualified in both seats does not mean that they are not learning basic planning and traditional copilot duties.

I'm not saying MPD folks can't do this, I'm saying they NEED to be doing this. They are qualified to fly in both seats, but it is what you do or how you perform in said seat that really matters. As I stated earlier, performing left/right seat duties also refers to what you do outside of the airplane as well. Spend your time in the right seat, learn these things, then worry about moving to and making decisions in the left seat.

[Guest kpaul]

Originally posted by Linda:

Rumor has it that folks in my neck of the woods just passed an edict that CPs won't land when they're on deployment over in the SandBox, even outside the CEP! Can anybody confirm/deny that, and if it's true please pass along the logic that goes with it? How can a CP keep basic (1/1/1) currency like that!?

On my last crew as a CP, I flew the TO, Appch, and Lnd outside the box (yes, I said BOX), and the AC flew 'em inside the box... thus, our currency was good for the deployment. Makes pretty good sense, and keeps the CP's hands and head in the game.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

Linda

I can't speak for all units (AMC / Spec Ops) but AMC's regulation says that COs can not land in the box (although I don't believe they actually used the term "box") They can however fly the approach the pilot just has to make the landing. We tried to get a CENTAF waiver to allow CP to land at certain bases in the AOR since we were at Balad and did not leave very often. CENTAF shot it down so now it is a challenge to keep CPs current. I see PRO Trainners flying to Kuwait with 6-9 CPs to knock out landing curriencies.

As for MPD, we have already had some of the first MPDs upgrade to AC. Over all they seem to be about equal to traditional CPs after upgrade. From what I have seen it totally depends on the person. Hell I am a traditional CP and I suck. After 4 months in the desert I forgot what radio calls to make flying around the flag pole here.

[Guest SpectrePilot]

Sounds like you need more guys with IP qual. Or AC's with a sack. As an "Aircraft Commander" -- do they still use that term?-- you can let the Pope land the damn airplane if you consider it best in your judgement.

Keeping my Copilot up to speed in all aspects of the mission has always been a high priority in MY judgement.

My advice: Let your copilot land the airplane at familiar fields when the threat is low. Watch him like a hawk, but do it anyway. YOU are flying the misch-- where the rubber meets the road. Some regs need to be broken; not willy-nilly, but in a manner you can justify as the aforementioned "Aircraft Commander". The kind with a sack. (If they don't like it, FedEx is hiring!)

[Dead Last]

Originally posted by Safe&Clear:

My advice: Let your copilot land the airplane at familiar fields when the threat is low Let your copilot land the airplane at familiar fields when the threat is low. Watch him like a hawk, but do it anyway. YOU are flying the misch-- where the rubber meets the road. Some regs need to be broken; not willy-nilly, but in a manner you can justify as the aforementioned "Aircraft Commander". The kind with a sack. (If they don't like it, FedEx is hiring!)

That does happen... We just aren't allowed to log it to stay current.