Cost of owning a plane

[JS57]

For those who own or have owned a plane what type of yearly costs are you looking at? Any unforeseen cost that you didn't factor in initially?

Edited October 8, 2011 by JS57

[di1630]

Depends on the A/C type, location, how much you want to do yourself.

You have to pay for insurance, hanger/tiedown then the mx to include a yearly annual. Say type and location and you may get some better help.

Unforseen cost advice....if it flies, floats or fvcks........rent it.

[Whitman]

Most will include an engine reserve fee that they charge themelves per hr. $10 per hr is an easy number for a 20k overhaul after 2000 hrs. Usaa partners with falcon for aviation insurance and pilot bank does loans if you're interested.

[JS57]

Guess we can use Cannon AFB and an RV-4 as an example.

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

Never personally owned a plane, but I flew my dad's 140 a lot. His thoughts about aircraft ownership that I learned over time:

1. If you can't afford a hangar, you can't afford the plane.

2. You can't look at the money too hard, because you won't like what you see. He said one night, flying the redeye from LAX to Cincinnati, his mind started to wander and he began calculating the yearly total cost. He said he stopped himself, because from a financial only standpoint, it doesn't make sense to own a plane.

To answer your question directly:

Radios die, databases need to be updated, tires wear out, and there's always some "other stuff" that you're buying (stuff to clean the windows, a preheater, etc.).

[Learjetter]

100LL: $5 per gallon

Hangar: $150/mo

Insurance: $100/mo. Liability/moving only

Annual: $2000 + cost to fix anything wrong

A&P reserve: $25/hr

So a nice single-engine aircraft, like a cessna 172, would run you about $45K to buy.

Payment: $750

Monthly cost, if you flew 10 hours a month:

750 payment

150 hangar

250 reserve

100 insurance

150 Mx reserve

500 fuel (10 gph x 10 hours x $5 per gallon)

About $1900 per month for a nice little 172 to putt around in VFR. Oh, if anything breaks, expect to pay a ridiculous amount for it: engine mount bolts: $129 each. For bolts. True.

YMMV.

[JarheadBoom]

Guess we can use Cannon AFB and an RV-4 as an example.

Some things to think about that I won't attach dollar values to, but can really start to add up. I'll assume you're buying an already-built -4...

- Was the aircraft built to plans, or at least reasonably close?

- Traditional engine (Lycoming/lyclone) or automotive conversion?

- Has the previous owner/builder worked out any/all the bugs in the systems?

- How much time is on the engine & prop?

- Ever flown an RV? Transition training (if you choose it or your insurance co. requires it) can be expensive, but that's a one-shot deal.

- As a non-builder, you'll need an A&P to sign-off the condition inspection every year. Not all A&P's are willing to do it due to liability concerns - you may need to hunt one down who is familiar with RVs and is willing to do the inspection, and fly to his/her location annually.

If you haven't already found it, vansairforce.net is a great resource for all things RV.

[Dingle]

anyone familiar with owning in the light-sport category? I know the maintenance and inspection fees are dramatically reduced. obviously the planes are smaller, but they can be just as fast, if not faster, than your average Cessna.

[frog]

I have a Cherokee 140 and I run about $12K per year flying 150 hours and BEFORE engine reserve.

100LL: 150 hours *8 gal/hr * 5.30$/hr = $6,360

Insurance: $600 /yr

Hangar: $160/mo * 12 mo/yr = $1,920

Annual: $2K/yr

Maintenance: $1K/yr

Total: $11,880

Be advised that this is an average year, it can be more expensive...especially during the first few years that you have the airplane. You have to get all of the quircks fixed early, and you probably won't be ready to do oil changes, brake pads, etc by yourself yet. An RV-4 will have considerably less MX cost since it is experimental, but you will have to pay an A&P for the annual since you won't hold the repairman's cert for the aircraft. Engine overhaul is a valid cost that needs to be considered, but I don't throw it in my costs because it's already paid for. I set aside $20K the day after my last overhaul just in case. Obviously, hangar, insurance, and fuel costs vary widely based on location and experience. Two years ago I wasn't flying as much and was running about $8K/yr. Also, I fly 25 hr/yr or so TDY, so that is essentially free gas.

Just my two cents: don't do it until you can really afford to fly as much as you want, have your overhaul money set aside as soon as you buy it, and try to hangar it whenever possible for peace of mind. Last, but not least, enjoy the type of flying that owning your own airplane can provide. It's a great feeling. The RV is a great airplane and I would have one if I didn't have a family of three.

Edit: One other thought: make sure you get the avionics you want with your purchase or budget accordingly. Avionics in general aviation are pretty amazing, but they cost a not-so-small fortune. If you plan on flying IFR, WAAS is a pretty good gig.

Edited October 9, 2011 by frog

[Nasalradiator]

Partners in an old T-6/SNJ. It has averaged a total of $18-21K a year based on a 100hr yr. This doesn't include hangar or initial purchase investment. Not exactly cheap, but it's standard category (you can charge for rides), aerobatic, and makes those cool radial sounds. We do a few mil airshows a year and they usually kick in fuel, oil, smoke oil which helps out a bit. Partnerships are great if you have some buds you trust that might want to go in on a bird with ya.

[yzl337]

Partners in an old T-6/SNJ. It has averaged a total of $18-21K a year based on a 100hr yr. This doesn't include hangar or initial purchase investment. Not exactly cheap, but it's standard category (you can charge for rides), aerobatic, and makes those cool radial sounds. We do a few mil airshows a year and they usually kick in fuel, oil, smoke oil which helps out a bit. Partnerships are great if you have some buds you trust that might want to go in on a bird with ya.

hangered at JYO?

[Butters]

Depends on the A/C type, location, how much you want to do yourself.

You have to pay for insurance, hanger/tiedown then the mx to include a yearly annual. Say type and location and you may get some better help.

Unforseen cost advice....if it flies, floats or fvcks........rent it.

Wow, annuals are yearly now? Well, that changes everything!

[Schmity]

Depends on the A/C type, location, how much you want to do yourself.

You have to pay for insurance, hanger/tiedown then the mx to include a yearly annual. Say type and location and you may get some better help.

Unforseen cost advice....if it flies, floats or fvcks........rent it.

Rule of thumb I've heard from lots of GA folks is...if you don't put at least 100 hours on it every year your better off renting

[di1630]

Rule of thumb I've heard from lots of GA folks is...if you don't put at least 100 hours on it every year your better off renting

Maybe a while back when rentals were $50 an hour for a 172 but they are upwards of $110 plus at most places and you should still carry renters insurance to boot.

If you want to buy, get some buddies to split costs. Also, go with a simple 4 cyl plane like a cherokee 180 or C-172 rather than a complex retractable. The money you would save in time will eat you in mx. Make friends with mechanics and do owner assist annuals to usually keep them (well) below $1K if the plane is in decent shape. Have a slush fund for parts and shop salvage yards and learn to do your own approved mx which is a lot and planes are simple.

Lots of ways to keep it affordable.

[Springer]

Cost might be lower with an experimental. I owned an RV-4 for 22 years and although I help build it I was not the builder of record, hence annuals vs condition inspection. I kept it simple, day VFR with a fix pitch prop. At annual time I did the oil/brake/tire changes and removed the access panels. Simple plane kept the annuals under $500. Hanger rent was my largest monthly expense. Insurance was under $1000/yr.

[discus]

Clovis hangar rent is around $100 a month. Talk to Carlos at Blue Sky and bring him some beer, and your fuel costs go down significantly if you pay in cash. (I didn't ask any questions and he told me no lies. ) Make friends with him first, then ask. He's a pretty cool dude. Right now, I believe there is a hangar waiting list and the airport manager is a real stickler for not allowing sub leases. (Read - dick). You will not ever regret having an airplane in order to get out of Clovis as often as possible and to all the great stuff like skiing, etc that is close enough to make into a day trip if you have a fast airplane. The prevailing VFR weather in New Mexico also makes it possible.

There is an old guy down in Portales who does "Owner assisted" annuals, but unless you have decent mechanical knowledge, I wouldn't trust his work. Having the right tools and knowing the right people brings costs down significantly. GA as a whole is a very small community. You get to know the "right people" who can bring the costs down by investing time hanging out at the airport and getting to know people. Like anything else, it's all about who you know. If you are going to be the type of guy who only shows up to the airport to jump in the plane and go fly, expect your costs to reflect that.

[Nasalradiator]

hangered at JYO?

The plane spends most of it's time at EYW, GNV and CRG

[Royal]

Here's my unsolicited advice: if you have to start crunching the numbers to see if you can afford a hobby or recreation, it's probably outside your budget. If you can't walk into a Piper or Cessna dealership at an FBO without having to ever worry about the funds in your checking account for the rest of your life, then the cost/benefit analysis probably won't pan out in your favor. Don't let your pastime become an anchor around your neck.

That being said, best of luck on finding something affordable. The market is flooded with killer deals, and General Aviation is one of the greatest luxuries America has ever produced. Let us know if you find a gem.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

If you have time, get an A&P License. You will re-coupe the cost of the class in the first 10 years of owning the aircraft.

As mentioned already, a personal relationship with your A&P, goes a long war.

If you are looking at homebuilt, consider the RV; the support is great.

Edited October 10, 2011 by CAVEMAN

[Yuengling Brother]

I owned 2 planes while in the AF and leased them back to a flight school. I can sum up the experience in 2 words...never again.

It is far cheaper to rent from an individual owner or your local FBO than owning outright. The outflow of money with ownership never ends. I'll admit, my eyes weren't fully open when I bought my first plane. The excitement of being an owner blinded me to some of the pitfalls. I was smarter about it when I bought the second one and that plane made money for me. However, that profit had to cover the losses I suffered with the first one.

With renting, you are only paying for actual use. When you're an owner, you are paying all the time. The loan, insurance, mx, FBO fees. You never realize how often things break on a small plane until you own one. Rental pilots don't give a shit about your plane either. They manhandle your instruments, spill Coke on the seats, and leave their McDonald's leftovers on the floor. Are they good pilots? Can they make a smooth landing? Maybe. But I believe they all performed carrier quals with mine.

I fully understand the love of flying and the desire to own your own plane. Isn't that every pilot's dream? But the reality is it's better to just toss the keys back to the FBO when you're done flying and let them take care of all the headaches.

[hindsight2020]

I owned 2 planes while in the AF and leased them back to a flight school. I can sum up the experience in 2 words...never again.

It is far cheaper to rent from an individual owner or your local FBO than owning outright. The outflow of money with ownership never ends. I'll admit, my eyes weren't fully open when I bought my first plane. The excitement of being an owner blinded me to some of the pitfalls. I was smarter about it when I bought the second one and that plane made money for me. However, that profit had to cover the losses I suffered with the first one.

With renting, you are only paying for actual use. When you're an owner, you are paying all the time. The loan, insurance, mx, FBO fees. You never realize how often things break on a small plane until you own one. Rental pilots don't give a shit about your plane either. They manhandle your instruments, spill Coke on the seats, and leave their McDonald's leftovers on the floor. Are they good pilots? Can they make a smooth landing? Maybe. But I believe they all performed carrier quals with mine.

I fully understand the love of flying and the desire to own your own plane. Isn't that every pilot's dream? But the reality is it's better to just toss the keys back to the FBO when you're done flying and let them take care of all the headaches.

Indeed. I bought a C-150 a while back and sold it within two years. It was a great exercise in convincing myself it wasn't worth it to me. The utilization rate was low, the maintenance, though the cheapest in the inventory of certified airplanes, still came out silly expensive when amortized by utilization hour. It simply was not worth it carrying all the burden of maintaining a 40 year old spam can to not have that much in the way of capabilities. And the bottom line was that it was all I could afford at the time, financing just seemed lunatic for something that saw much less utilization than a primary driver car, which I wasn't financing either!

Somebody mentioned LSA (Light Sport Acft). Here's the skinny on the unintended consequences of that aircraft category. It was ADVERTISED as the solution to this very thread; hoardes of Joe working stiff finally able to afford some very restricting kind of flying, which was better than envying rich people outside the airport fence right? Well, here's the reality of that category...

Well off people can afford airplanes. We all know there's a generational gap in terms of affluence, old people have money, young people are increasingly broke as a joke. As a consequence the GA owner demographic is OLD by societal standards. As such, their health is failing and they can't continue to hold FAA medicals. The intent of LSA was NEVER to open the market to young broke people. Wanna know why? Because they included as part of the requirements to fly sport category the lack of a medical..you only need a driver's license. Presto!! The demographic that COULD afford to throw stupid money after silly money to keep that Bonanza flying 45 hours a year in the air conditioned hangar now get to continue flying under LSA rules. They let their medical expire, full knowing they couldn't pass a renewal, and so they take their buckets of money and throw it into a shiny new LSA.

LSAs can't fly at night, can carry only one passenger, can't fly IFR, yet they cost six figures!!! What part of six figure acquisition cost for a day VFR two seater than can't exceed 120KIAS sounds palatable to the young stagnant waging masses (I'm such a populist, I love class warfare) ?!?!? It was never intended for them. Frankly it offends me to have to read the garbage blurb on those online CFI renewals I gotta do every 24 months, with old 1990s archive pictures of Suzie the college student and her dream to fly on a budget. GMAFB. I digress.

If I could get an LSA (day VFR, non-IFR equipped, under 120KIAS) for the acquisiton cost of a rat trap 150, then we're talking. The avionics alone in that LSA cost more than the -150, forget the manufacturing cost of the thing. It's a non-starter and just like California equity refugees were swelling up the housing costs in Southeastern cities at the middle of the last decade, so are old rich people with failing health, artificially sustaining a ridonculous price for a glorified kite that you can't even tow past dusk. Sure, you could equip an LSA for night VFR and even IFR, but in order to fly outside those LSA rules you have to have a medical. People who can get a medical will go back to their Bo and fly 4 people in comfort at 140kts (burning silly fuel flow but I digress). LSAs are non-starters for the guy looking to "afford" GA.

When this last batch of old folks (boomers in particular) dies off, there'll be a fire sale of aircraft, but no buyer's to pick up the inventory. The operating costs are going up and up and up. Even now 30+ yo spam cans are sitting idle waiting for suckers to pick them up and nobody will touch them; everybody knows the operating and mx costs of these relics are prohibitive when amortized for the kind of flight hours the median GA pilot does in a year. You're better off boating to be frank. GA will about cease to exist in 30 years they way this thing is going. The FAA and some of the airline/military crowd couldn't be happier about it.

Edited October 10, 2011 by hindsight2020

[Majestik Møøse]

OK, here's something I've never really understood - why do airplanes and their parts cost so much? A brand new 172 costs $274,900. That's the base price for the cheaper model. For a design that hasn't really changed in 50 years and is partially built in Chihuahua, Mexico. The models go up exponentially from there, a Cessna 350, which looks like a fun 2-seat, low-wing plane to fly (despite not being able to go upside down) is $558,200.

And then you need to rebuild the engine every 2000 hours for $20,000? The base 172 engine produces 160hp at 2xxx rpm, which is a dramatic 15hp increase over what it produced in 1958. Doesn't sound like the reliability or power has increased much at all.

What gives? Is it solely down to economies of scale?

[JS57]

Ya, a huge part going into my this decision is that I'm a single dude going from Hurby to Cannon.

I haven't been there before and don't want to quite judge the place yet, but I'm thinking it's gonna be hard to put a price on throwing my middle finger out of the window of my own plane as I leave that place every weekend.

Still, I want to be smart about it and not put myself into huge amounts of debt just trying to stay sane, so that's why I made this thread. I also appreciate all of the well thought out responses.

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

What gives? Is it solely down to economies of scale?

I don't pretend to know the full answer, but I know part of it: FAA certification of parts.

I worked for a company who produced captive screws. They did pretty well, and are doing good business, even in today's market. The owner said that he had been approached about producing some parts for aircraft, but he declined because the FAA certification process was so long, expensive, and paper-laden.

[Dingle]

Somebody mentioned LSA (Light Sport Acft). Here's the skinny on the unintended consequences of that aircraft category. It was ADVERTISED as the solution to this very thread; hoardes of Joe working stiff finally able to afford some very restricting kind of flying, which was better than envying rich people outside the airport fence right? Well, here's the reality of that category...

LSAs can't fly at night, can carry only one passenger, can't fly IFR, yet they cost six figures!!! What part of six figure acquisition cost for a day VFR two seater than can't exceed 120KIAS sounds palatable to the young stagnant waging masses (I'm such a populist, I love class warfare) ?!?!? It was never intended for them. Frankly it offends me to have to read the garbage blurb on those online CFI renewals I gotta do every 24 months, with old 1990s archive pictures of Suzie the college student and her dream to fly on a budget. GMAFB. I digress.

The speed limit is 120kts at sea level I believe. Also, I've seen several LSAs sub-40k in decent shape that outperform Cessnas/Pipers. I don't think anyone around here would be stupid enough (or rich enough) to buy a brand new airplane of any kind. I'd also argue that for GA, I don't have a desire to fly IFR or at night 90% of the time. I think the biggest drag involved in buying an LSA is the 2 seat limitation.