Cost of owning a plane

[hindsight2020]

Def a regional dependent thing wrt ownership, airpark living, and the feasibility of clubs vis a vis sole ownership. I own because I've never lived in a place where rentals or clubs were a viable option, or even existed in the first place. So the decision matrix was a Hobson's Choice. My life has been too nomadic to make partnerships a palatable option. At this point I'm too set in my ways to want to dabble in the opportunity cost that comes with cost sharing. Access is worth the premium to me, under-utilization be damnned.

Some urban locations tend to have the density to support flying clubs, and sometimes it's the only way to attain covered storage in these areas too, since the waiting lists and hangar costs in desirable metropolitan locations are stiflingly scarce. To be clear, not all metros have the same availability of general aviation. There are socioeconomic and demographic reasons for this variability in outcome within metros of otherwise the same population size, good bad or indifferent. So again, it's all gonna be regionally dependent of an answer.

 

[HuggyU2]

20 hours ago, kaputt said:

Where in general is the break point on renting vs owning, interns of hours flown per year? 

If you're seriously considering this, also consider getting a small group of well-known locals and/or friends to go in on a plane with you, and share the costs... and the fun.  And join AOPA.  They can give you plenty of resources whatever you do.  Plus, it's just good to support AOPA and all they do for the GA community.  

With over 50 former U-2 pilots in the local area around Beale, it is something we were going to consider... until everyone's jobs began to look uncertain as a result of the virus.  I'm sure we will discuss it again next year.  There's an Interstate Cadet and a T-Craft on Barnstormers I wanted to get folks interested about... but it will have to wait.  

Edited April 7, 2020 by HuggyU2

[Orbit]

Go get a ride in a RV and you will see why owning is better. 

[Hacker]

I have owned, rented, been in clubs, owned in a partnership, and looked into several places in between.  Aircraft involved have been a 1948 Navion, a 1964 Cherokee 235, a 72 KCAB Citabria, a 1949 T-6G, a 1943 PT-19, and a 1943 SNJ-4 for the relevant club/owning/partnership/sponsorship routes.

Each of these routes had their pluses and minuses, and there are good reasons to be found for each path depending on how much money you have to burn, how often you plan on flying, and what you plan on using it for.

What I have settled into currently is a partnership/club membership (a fractional owner who leases the airplane to a club) in the PT-19 and a sponsorship in a CAF T-6.  Both avenues work well for my balance of cost-vs-use frequency and type.  Plus, as others have mentioned, the club (and the CAF) are fun groups of people to fly and socialize with, and also facilitate other flying events like ride-giving, fly-ins, airshows, formation flying, etc.

For quite a few years I was heavily leaning toward an RV-8, even having done pre-purchase inspections on a couple potential candidate aircraft and getting some type training and fam from one of the Van's enthusiast groups.  I don't have anything bad to say about the aircraft or the community -- I think it is an exceptional combination of value and performance, and would probably have been a good fit for me had I not stumbled into the PT-19 and T-6 opportunities I ended up going with.

 

[hindsight2020]

On 4/8/2020 at 11:24 AM, Orbit said:

Go get a ride in a RV and you will see why owning EXPERIMENTAL is better. 

FTFY. Not a distinction without difference to this 3-time sucker of the certified captive audience game. 😄 I liken my relationship with certified rules as Michael and the office fax machine in Office space...

[Orbit]

43 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

FTFY. Not a distinction without difference to this 3-time sucker of the certified captive audience game. 😄 I liken my relationship with certified rules as Michael and the office fax machine in Office space...

haha yea very true. 

I was trying to make the point that you can't rent many airplanes with good performance and are just a blast to fly.  

[HuggyU2]

I'll be calling HindSight when I get a little closer to pulling the trigger.

Today, I went out to fly the Cub... my first flight since 7 March... and after I flew, I was walking around the ramp with a good bud (who owns the Cub, a Stearman, and a PT-22 and has a ton of GA experience), and we saw a nice Swift taxi out.  

I say "You've flown the Swift.  What did you think?"

He says "Good... but you can get in an RV-?, go faster, have better support, do it for cheaper, and have more fun."  

One data point.  

For you U-2 guys that know Mountain, we saw him land just a few minutes after that in his RV-6, and went and looked it over.  His was finished in '92 (IIRC), and it was a beautiful airplane.  He's had it two years, it is is first airplane, and he is a very happy owner.  

FWIW, we have quite a few U-2 Drivers with airplanes in the Beale area at this time.  

Edited April 12, 2020 by HuggyU2

[EvilEagle]

Owning an airplane (bought my first one 11 years ago) is a heartbreaking yet awesome experience.  If you have the means, go do it - you only live once.  I had a Glasair 1 that I used to fly to work everyday for 2 years.  After my Mc-dozen deployment and AD jettison to the ANG, I bought a Bonanza 36 and have had that for 8.5 years.  We flew it a ton for a while, then had good years and slow years.  My kid is 2 now and she loves flying which is awesome.  It's been a total gamechanger for the extended family visits; even before the kid but now it really is.  I honestly didn't think I'd ever sell this one.  

 

I'm thinking about selling.  But just to buy something else.  I'm retiring this year and moving back to Idaho next spring and want something a little more back country friendly.  180/185 is the goal, but I'm kicking around all kinds of options.  

 

Financially it'll never make sense in the long run; do it because you want to be an airplane family.  Drop the cash, don't ever keep track of what it's costing you and go fly every time you feel like it.  (My .02 )

[Bobsan]

On 4/3/2020 at 6:37 PM, Orbit said:

How many people are you going to fly with 75% of the time?

no more than 1 passenger 69% of the time. I was initially thinking 4-seater to be able to easily fly for things like Pilots'n'Paws and PALS. But my primary mission is getting any sort of flying time ASAP. I've been reading about RVs and and looking at listings for sale. But even a Cub/Champ or C150/PA-28-140 would do for now.

I haven't flown in 8 months since UPT graduation, currently in a penalty holding pattern with the Guard Bureau waiting for Herk school dates (long story). With the GA market expected to go down, I may end up buying high now anyway just to get hours and accept the loss in value.

[herkbier]

1 hour ago, Bobsan said:

no more than 1 passenger 69% of the time. I was initially thinking 4-seater to be able to easily fly for things like Pilots'n'Paws and PALS. But my primary mission is getting any sort of flying time ASAP. I've been reading about RVs and and looking at listings for sale. But even a Cub/Champ or C150/PA-28-140 would do for now.

I haven't flown in 8 months since UPT graduation, currently in a penalty holding pattern with the Guard Bureau waiting for Herk school dates (long story). With the GA market expected to go down, I may end up buying high now anyway just to get hours and accept the loss in value.

Just rent for a bit til you start flying again?

[Bobsan]

I would but flying clubs/schools in my state and nearby are closed. Road trip and hotel/bnb across the country to FL schools offering block time building rental is the option I'm weighing against.

[Orbit]

21 hours ago, Bobsan said:

no more than 1 passenger 69% of the time. I was initially thinking 4-seater to be able to easily fly for things like Pilots'n'Paws and PALS. But my primary mission is getting any sort of flying time ASAP. I've been reading about RVs and and looking at listings for sale. But even a Cub/Champ or C150/PA-28-140 would do for now.

I haven't flown in 8 months since UPT graduation, currently in a penalty holding pattern with the Guard Bureau waiting for Herk school dates (long story). With the GA market expected to go down, I may end up buying high now anyway just to get hours and accept the loss in value.

Take a look at RV-4s if you want something lower priced and economical to operate. Unless you are a big dude.  You could still fly dogs in the back room is decent if you pull the seat out. 

[ryleypav]

I know its a bit off from any 4 seater, but if your looking for something cheap to just putz around in until you can get back to Herk school, C120/140s are extremely cheap to buy/operate. Theres one for sale I saw yesterday that was 22k, metalized wings, 400SMOH and around 3k on the air-frame maybe? Maybe less. No fancy avionics. But I believe it had radios and was ADSB compliant. 85hp engine so it sips fuel. Cant get much cheaper. 

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, ryleypav said:

I know its a bit off from any 4 seater, but if your looking for something cheap to just putz around in until you can get back to Herk school, C120/140s are extremely cheap to buy/operate. Theres one for sale I saw yesterday that was 22k, metalized wings, 400SMOH and around 3k on the air-frame maybe? Maybe less. No fancy avionics. But I believe it had radios and was ADSB compliant. 85hp engine so it sips fuel. Cant get much cheaper. 

If you're talking about the one on Barnstormers, the owner also has a very nice Stearman.  I'm guessing that 140 is pretty nice.  Their family farm airstrip is part of the National Stearman Fly-in every year...big aviation family.  

Edited April 23, 2020 by SocialD
spellin...

[ryleypav]

24 minutes ago, SocialD said:

If you're talking about the one on Barnstormers, the owner also has a very nice Stearman.  I'm guessing that 140 is pretty nice.  They're family farm airstrip is part is part of the National Stearman Fly-in every year...big aviation family.  

Yep that's the one. If I wasn't worried about dealing with an airplane/selling an airplane during pilot training in the next year or so, I'd be buying it. I flew a 120 with a 100hp engine and it was great. Not the roomiest or fanciest planes out there, but they are good cheap flyers. 

[Bobsan]

I ended up buying it, flew it home from Iowa the other week. Insurance $980/year, hangar $230/month, and however much MX ends up costing.

Far from the best performer on the airfield but still faster than a J3 Cub, had to keep flaps down for this one to keep up with me.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Bobsan

[Orbit]

Low and slow with the window open.  Congrats!

 

Looks like Triple Tree is still going to happen.  https://tta.aero/aviation-events/triple-tree-fly-in/

Any other large fly-ins anyone plan on going to?

[Bobsan]

https://www.stearmanflyin.com and https://cessna120140.com/convention/ around Labor Day

[HuggyU2]

Bobsan,

I saw that plane on Barnstormers and it looks like a really nice plane for a screamin' deal.  Congratulations on joining the "owners ranks".  

Nice picture over the AF Museum.  👍

Edited May 21, 2020 by HuggyU2

[ryleypav]

On 5/19/2020 at 4:00 PM, Bobsan said:

I ended up buying it, flew it home from Iowa the other week. Insurance $980/year, hangar $230/month, and however much MX ends up costing.

Far from the best performer on the airfield but still faster than a J3 Cub, had to keep flaps down for this one to keep up with me.

Nice! I had a few people in my club contact me to see if I was interested to split this with them. Sounds like you got a nice plane. 

[DirkDiggler]

Anyone on this forum have any personal experience with ownership of a Piper Cherokee or Archer?  Am giving serious thought to buying my 1st airplane next spring, am kinda partial to Pipers and was curious if anyone had any good/bad/general info?

[hindsight2020]

7 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

Anyone on this forum have any personal experience with ownership of a Piper Cherokee or Archer?  Am giving serious thought to buying my 1st airplane next spring, am kinda partial to Pipers and was curious if anyone had any good/bad/general info?

Pretty "*cheap" to keep, from a *certified perspective anyways. I've owned a Warrior II in the past and now own a post-'72 Arrow II (retractable 200hp full back seat version of the hershey bar PA-28 sub-variant) going on 8 years. PM me if interested on more details, not gonna get into the reasons I own the type over other types on here. 

All that said, I'm no type-cult member. My reasons for owning the type are rather transactional. If your mission is 2 seats or less, I'd forget these spam cans and go experimental every day of the week and twice on sunday. In the interest of brevity I'll digress on the reasons. You can PM me for those too.

Good luck!

 

[Hacker]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

Anyone on this forum have any personal experience with ownership of a Piper Cherokee or Archer?  Am giving serious thought to buying my 1st airplane next spring, am kinda partial to Pipers and was curious if anyone had any good/bad/general info?

I had a short relationship with a Cherokee 235, as well as getting my private in a Cherokee 160.  I chose it over a Bonanza or a Comanche, mostly for market price and what I needed in a "family cruiser" at the time.

It was a very enjoyable airplane with a relatively good amount of useful load (1500-ish pounds, depending on gas, etc) and easy to find someone to maintain. It is not particularly expensive to maintain, although mine had its original 70s-era panel and no upgrades, and was going to cost a fortune to update with certified avionics if I wanted to keep playing IFR games with it. The 540 is a reliable engine in my experience too.

Don't have much to say about them overall; less expensive than a 182 with comparable performance, can actually haul 4 people (although the back seats are better with kids) and some bags, and typical GA maintenance costs.

I sold it rather quickly for PCS reasons, and if my family and mission circumstances were the same, I might own one again....but they aren't.

EDIT: Since this is a thread about costs, I'm adding that my costs of ownership probably aren't relevant today as it was 20-ish years ago. I could afford it as a dual-incone-no-kids 1Lt/Capt at the time, though.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Hacker

[frog]

2 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Anyone on this forum have any personal experience with ownership of a Piper Cherokee or Archer?  Am giving serious thought to buying my 1st airplane next spring, am kinda partial to Pipers and was curious if anyone had any good/bad/general info?

I had a 140 for close to 15 years. The pros are that it is a simple, reliable, and “cheap” certified airplane. My wife and I flew it everywhere until our second kiddo came along. It was slow as all get out, but I really enjoyed it. If I was looking for four plus seats, I would definitely do another Cherokee, ideally an Arrow, 235, or 6 for more load and speed unless I had enough money to buy and operate a nice Bonanza. An Archer or 1973 and later  180 (or 72 and later Arrow) have significantly more room in the back.  Shoot me a message if you have any specific questions. I can talk about Cherokees longer than most people want to listen. 

[di1630]

I had a 140 for close to 15 years. The pros are that it is a simple, reliable, and “cheap” certified airplane. My wife and I flew it everywhere until our second kiddo came along. It was slow as all get out, but I really enjoyed it. If I was looking for four plus seats, I would definitely do another Cherokee, ideally an Arrow, 235, or 6 for more load and speed unless I had enough money to buy and operate a nice Bonanza. An Archer or 1973 and later  180 (or 72 and later Arrow) have significantly more room in the back.  Shoot me a message if you have any specific questions. I can talk about Cherokees longer than most people want to listen. 

I’ve have a Cherokee 235 and love it. Not a speed demon but being able to haul a family of four, luggage and 7hrs worth of fuel and still takeoff on a hot day is great.

Super stable wing, bulletproof O-540 motor. Only gripe is speed. Cost is $800 per year insurance, ~$1,000-1,500 annual + gas/oil.

I hanger it for $175 a month as well for a personal t-hanger.




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