Tuition Assistance Cuts

[Spartacus]

I see this cut as a definite negative for the force in general. I agree with what everyone is saying about the AF throwing money around for worthless things, but the answer is not to cut TA IMO. We all know that there are going to be many fiscal challenges in the coming years but reducing or cutting TA is just the first sign of future things to come. Cutting TA is an easy kill for the AF to do, and I fear that it is only the beginning. Let's call this what it is... a cut to service members' benefits. What will be next?

Instead of reducing TA for everyone I think the answer should be to change how the AF handles advanced education. Mask masters degrees for promotion to Major and maybe even Lt Col. This would hopefully lessen or stop all of us going out to get worthless degrees from for profit schools and in turn would reduce how much the AF spends on TA. I believe that the AF should also institute a policy of not paying TA to for profit schools, but only to schools that have an actual physical campus that have been around for a while. This would also reduce how much the AF pays out in TA. In addition, the AF could increase the amount of officers who attend IDE in-residence so that more of the force gets that "been there done that T-shirt" and would be educated in something a little more applicable to serving in the AF. (Whether IDE is actually a good way to get a masters or is a good way to build leaders is another discussion, I know.)

The AF just seems to be so concerned about everyone having a masters when in reality it should be looking at the quality of those masters degrees and actual leadership potential and job performance when considering people for future advancement. Performance and skill in your AFSC along with how you interact with those around you is much more important than whether you have a masters degree or not. Then, if the AF deems you to be future leadership potential then they should require you to get AAD's, but by sending you to get a degree in something that will also benefit the AF from a brick and mortar school.

Like I said in the beginning this is a cut to benefits and to me seems to be a stupid way to handle things. The AF could probably save just as much money if not more by just tweaking how it handles AAD's. Many more cuts and a lot of people who are on the fence will punch... me included.

[ThreeHoler]

Whole lotta chicken littles in this thread...

[spaw2001]

Whole lotta chicken littles in this thread...

Please bestow thou omniscient view upon us...In the mean time, im going to get a beer

Edited October 24, 2011 by spaw2001

[Rusty Pipes]

Some good points for sure, but I don't think the AF consciously says, "Let's not qualify/train our folks too much because then they'll leave." It probably all comes down to costs...And then, that is a whole different topic because we all know TA is a waste for officers, but it looks cheap on paper..Only 250 per credit hour.

You're 100% correct, I don't think the AF is looking to not train or qualify anyone. The concept of TA is great, but on the officer side what they are doing is shooting themselves in the foot by forcing a Masters and now looking at your Masters completion date to determine your "promotability". Think of it this way... how many guys out there who are young Capts flying the line are saying, "This is great... trying to upgrade to IP as fast as possible AND I get to spend all this time getting a Toro Masters!!!"

TA should be used as a retention tool. My personal opinion is that the AF would be much better off if they legitimately kept a Masters masked... not sure you can change that cultural mindset though. Even when it was masked, my Sq CC's used to use a Masters as a discriminator when ranking PRFs. The point is that if you could use TA to get a legit Masters at even a descent State College or University in something that actually interested you or was going to be useful on the outside then people would look at it as a good deal. Instead what we have is a corps of Lts and young Capts who are more worried about a useless Masters and SOS in correspondence than learning how to fly their jet because they are worried about OPR Strats for future promotion and avoiding the next UAV drop (because we all know that in the CC's UAV rack and stack list of candidates there is a Y/N column for Masters/SOS)!

Baseops.net forums prove my point! I've seen several posts on here talking about the Post 9/11 GI Bill and how good of a deal it is that you can pass it on to your kids/spouse, etc. I'm still looking for one that sings the praises of how great TA is for getting the incredibly useful Toro and Embry Riddle Masters!!! TA is a good program, unfortunately it has been perverted into a self-induced colossal waste of taxpayer dollars to essentially keep barely ligit online universities in business.

[Pancake]

TA should be used as a retention tool.

Allow officers to use TA only after being selected for Major-no TA for Lts and Capts.

Completely masking AADs for promotion/IDE selection emphasizes job expertise. IDE selection identifies those with leadership potential, however, TA allows non-selects to remain competitive for further promotion/command through the rigor/prestige of their self-selected AAD (perseverence should count for something in commander selection). Non-selects/those who choose to not use TA self identify as non-promotes/non-commands/"if you're going to RIF, get rid of me."

Raise TA rates to allow non-selects to get AADs useful to the Air Force, even if online from universities besides Toro/TUI/whatever (GW/Drexel/Penn/Duke/etc...). Alternatively, put no limit on TA for degrees approved/"needed" by the Air Force. Make both AAD concentration and source factors in promotion/command (MBA, safety, international relations/pol sci seem more useful for command than even some degrees offered by Embry-Riddle).

Edited October 24, 2011 by Pancake

[HeyWatchThis]

Allow officers to use TA only after being selected for Major-no TA for Lts and Capts.

For non-rated career fields, TA is a much more effective retention tool than rated career fields because of the ADSCD.

[Pancake]

For non-rated career fields, TA is a much more effective retention tool than rated career fields because of the ADSCD.

TA shouldn't be an officer retention tool. It should be a tool the Air Force uses to develop a well educated officer corps. Using resources to do anything besides enhancing organizational core competencies is bad management, especially when the fiscal belt is tightened. "Feel good" handouts work to retain enlisted members who, in managerial terms, equate to purely numbers. For them, TA, rightly or wrongly, is definitely a retention tool that my be 1) obsolete considering tuition costs, and 2) inappropriate considering the post-9/11 Gi Bill. Officers (especially rated officers), however, are stakeholders that deserve more career development based on their vestment. Right now, the Air Force views all of its members as purely numbers. Until a more corporate approach to retention is taken, the Air Force will encourage its officers to blindly spin their wheels chasing promotion/IDE selection rather than focusing on the correct things at the correct time in the correct context, ultimately disenfranchising personnel and wasting time and money.

I am also in favor of separate rated/non-rated promotion/IDE boards. How do you legitimately compare the promotability of a rated WIC grad to a non-rated 8-4 admin officer? I know the example is extreme and a gray area exists (for example, Intel and Mx officers) but there is justification for a better focused/more efficient selection (promotion) system. We spearate line/JAG/Med officer promotion boards, why not rated/non-rated?

Edited October 24, 2011 by Pancake

[Marco]

As a guy who is in the Guard, TA was a godsend. I had a shitty program called Select/Reserve GI Bill, and couldn't use it to max amount allowed because I was on Title 32 AGR orders. TA allowed me to finish my bachelor's, and the vocational allowance is helping me pay for my PPL, since the VA requires that before GI Bill will pay for additional ratings. When I finished my degree, us Guardbaby types weren't eligible for Post 9/11 bennies. just thought I'd throw in an argument on behalf of us little folks for whom TA is a great benefit. Threadjack over: please feel free to continue your discussion of worthless Masters degrees and such. :)

[Rusty Pipes]

As a guy who is in the Guard, TA was a godsend. I had a shitty program called Select/Reserve GI Bill, and couldn't use it to max amount allowed because I was on Title 32 AGR orders. TA allowed me to finish my bachelor's, and the vocational allowance is helping me pay for my PPL, since the VA requires that before GI Bill will pay for additional ratings. When I finished my degree, us Guardbaby types weren't eligible for Post 9/11 bennies. just thought I'd throw in an argument on behalf of us little folks for whom TA is a great benefit. Threadjack over: please feel free to continue your discussion of worthless Masters degrees and such. :)

Perfect example of how TA is a good program when it is actually used for what it was intended. It was intended to be a service benefit, but on the AD officer side at least, has been hijacked by a bunch of clueless yes men who have forged a perverted view of the importance of education on the officer force. The AF would definitely benefit from the most educated officer force it can get, but that is not what they are getting.

At Embry Riddle "Worldwide" (read online) a C-17 IP who has done SOS in res, ACSC in Cor, and has been to any AF formal safety course will get credit for half of their Masters course requirements before they take a single class. Of the classes they offer, the majority are probably on the GED level at best. Yup, got my Masters! Do you think that was what they had in mind when they introduced TA?

Should I be pissed at my Wing CC and/or Sq CC (both were AF Interns that have degrees from George Washington that were paid for by the AF) that a great benefit was taken away from me when I really would have liked to have used TA to help pay for a legit Masters? Congratulations Big Blue... you turned a great TA benefit that could have been used to get a useful degree into the ultimate $25,000 Information Assurance CBT!!! I clicked through both as fast as I could, I learned nothing from either, and have a certificate from both... that are of about equal value!!!

[spaw2001]

Yup...All good points. I think there is a clear divide between whats good for the individual and what looks good to El Air Force. Senior leaders simply want to report to Congress that 96.9% of Majors have a masters. Check out our educated and thoughtful officer corps! But, please don't read the fine print because the majority of our rated force, and future AF leaders get them from for-profit schools. I feel good though, because we are all making the collective whole look good. Perhaps a year at the prestigious Air University will make it all worth it! If you think about it, the selection rate to in-res IDE is about that of an ivy league university for officers. I love how the Air Force sells shit sandwiches and somehow manages to simultaneously make us feel grateful.

[Marco]

About 8 months ago, I interviewed at a Coast Guard helo squadron as part of an OCS application packet. The board president, an O-5, told me during the interview that the CG was sending him to Syracuse to get his graduate degree. The board members all stated that was the norm for their officers to be sent to such institutions.

Perfect example of how TA is a good program when it is actually used for what it was intended. It was intended to be a service benefit, but on the AD officer side at least, has been hijacked by a bunch of clueless yes men who have forged a perverted view of the importance of education on the officer force. The AF would definitely benefit from the most educated officer force it can get, but that is not what they are getting.

At Embry Riddle "Worldwide" (read online) a C-17 IP who has done SOS in res, ACSC in Cor, and has been to any AF formal safety course will get credit for half of their Masters course requirements before they take a single class. Of the classes they offer, the majority are probably on the GED level at best. Yup, got my Masters! Do you think that was what they had in mind when they introduced TA?

Should I be pissed at my Wing CC and/or Sq CC (both were AF Interns that have degrees from George Washington that were paid for by the AF) that a great benefit was taken away from me when I really would have liked to have used TA to help pay for a legit Masters? Congratulations Big Blue... you turned a great TA benefit that could have been used to get a useful degree into the ultimate $25,000 Information Assurance CBT!!! I clicked through both as fast as I could, I learned nothing from either, and have a certificate from both... that are of about equal value!!!

[Champ Kind]

I love how the Air Force sells shit sandwiches and somehow manages to simultaneously make us feel grateful.

T H I S.

[BitteEinBit]

I think education is important...no argument there.

Perfect example of how TA is a good program when it is actually used for what it was intended. It was intended to be a service benefit, but on the AD officer side at least, has been hijacked by a bunch of clueless yes men who have forged a perverted view of the importance of education on the officer force. The AF would definitely benefit from the most educated officer force it can get, but that is not what they are getting.

At Embry Riddle "Worldwide" (read online) a C-17 IP who has done SOS in res, ACSC in Cor, and has been to any AF formal safety course will get credit for half of their Masters course requirements before they take a single class. Of the classes they offer, the majority are probably on the GED level at best. Yup, got my Masters! Do you think that was what they had in mind when they introduced TA?

I think education is an important part of developing leaders, but I don't think it "makes" leaders the way the Air Force looks at it. While we meet the "intent" (96.9% of Majors have a Master's) we completely miss the mark and a good opportunity to actually use education to develop effective managers. Instead of targeting specific people for specific degrees that will help develop those officers to meet the needs of the Air Force, we tell everyone to get a Masters as soon as possible in anything you want.

But the more I attend these job fairs, the more I realize that it is exactly the same on the outside. "Advanced degree desired/required," and most don't even care what the degree is in. So me, trying to understand the rationale behind the concept, asks: "Why is an advance degree required if you don't care what discipline the degree is in?" Response? BLANK STARE. "Its just a requirement." Same answer you'll get if you ask anyone in the AF what having a Master's degree brings to the table. No one can answer...it just sounds better to say you have a degree. But those of us who have been there done that and have the degree know it doesn't take much to get one.

I'm not trying to say everyone's degree is worthless. I would argue that someone who manages in the business sector would probably benefit the company if they have an MBA. Someone in the aero industry probably helps the company if they have an AE degree. Someone in computers...some kind of computer degree..(see a trend here?). If I were running a company (or an Air Force), that is how I would target the development and education of my staff. I wouldn't say "just get a Masters in anything as fast as possible" and I certainly wouldn't do it that way on the company dime. Huge waste of resources.

We are the worlds greatest Air Force, but sometimes I wonder how we manage to operate. If we were a business, we wouldn't be in business right now. That is part of our problem...we aren't business savvy...we operate as if we have an infinate amount of funds and that is what makes decisions so easy in the Air Force.

In my opinion, our biggest challenge in the future: Continue to be the world's greatest Air Force, operating efficiently and effectively within our means. Right now we aren't doing that at all. Decision making is going to get a little harder when you have to justify your spending...

[Pancake]

But the more I attend these job fairs, the more I realize that it is exactly the same on the outside. "Advanced degree desired/required," and most don't even care what the degree is in.

What companies are you talking to? I'm looking at business development (defense contractors) and corporate leadership development programs (American and United), all of which require an MBA. Unless you're specifically looking for a job in an interested discipline, my experience is that jobs that will pay you what you're worth ($100K+) have very specific requirements. Otherwise, an AAD is not required; your leadership is more highly valued.

[Dupe]

TA cuts had to happen. Between the implementation of 100% TA in 2002 and now, the number of new degrees awarded under TA didn't change much. However, the TA cost to the Air Force nearly doubled between 2001 and 2010. AF TA has been caught under the massive inflation of college programs. From the macro AF level, given the choice between maintaining/expanding combat capability or a quality of life tool whose cost are rapidly outpacing its utility...I'd pick combat capability.

[pawnman]

TA cuts had to happen. Between the implementation of 100% TA in 2002 and now, the number of new degrees awarded under TA didn't change much. However, the TA cost to the Air Force nearly doubled between 2001 and 2010. AF TA has been caught under the massive inflation of college programs. From the macro AF level, given the choice between maintaining/expanding combat capability or a quality of life tool whose cost are rapidly outpacing its utility...I'd pick combat capability.

You mean having a master's doesn't increase our combat capability? Does Schwartz know about this?

[edog37]

Guess you missed the line in there that said, "all other things being equal." That said right now perhaps too much emphasis is being placed on masters degree, and I think that is the point you are trying to make.

anyone else ever have a problem with this statement? To me, it states you have two marginal people to choose from, so let's pick the less marginal one for promotion....I do agree about the master's degree portion. Why they unmasked it for Maj is beyond me....

[Rusty Pipes]

From the macro AF level, given the choice between maintaining/expanding combat capability or a quality of life tool whose cost are rapidly outpacing its utility...I'd pick combat capability.

Well we certainly aren't going to be buying an extra F-22 or C-17 with the savings from cutting TA. But lets talk about maintaining our combat capability. I'll bet there isn't a single guy in my last Sq who wouldn't give up the $15-20K from TA that they used to get their forced and unwanted Embry Riddle or Toro degree if it meant that the Crew Dawg EP who got his walking papers at 15 1/2 yrs when he got passed over for O-5 could stay to retire! The AF is losing a whole lot more in capability by kicking him out than they will ever gain from all of those useless Masters degrees!!!

Edited October 26, 2011 by Rusty Pipes

[sky_king]

... that they used to get their forced and unwanted Embry Riddle or Toro degree ...

Um, it's Trident University. Don't drag that fine institution's name through the mud like that.

[Rusty Pipes]

Um, it's Trident University. Don't drag that fine institution's name through the mud like that.

My most sincere apologies to all of those out there who slaved for weeks to get a Trident University Masters... I have often been forced to throw punches with folks who dared to speak ill of the prestigious Embry Riddle Worldwide University from where I will forver hold my undying loyalty!!!

[spaw2001]

Thats funny Rusty! I am waiting for the school that awards a full degree based on SOS and Initial qual completion...All you have to pay is the application fee..You can even print the diploma out off of the ADLS transcript page...money!!

[ThreeHoler]

My most sincere apologies to all of those out there who slaved for weeks to get a Trident University Masters... I have often been forced to throw punches with folks who dared to speak ill of the prestigious Embry Riddle Worldwide University from where I will forver hold my undying loyalty!!!

I am fairly sure he was referring to the real bricks and mortar Toro College in New York.

[Rusty Pipes]

Thats funny Rusty! I am waiting for the school that awards a full degree based on SOS and Initial qual completion...All you have to pay is the application fee..You can even print the diploma out off of the ADLS transcript page...money!!

Apparently that won't even help... check out the guys who just got RIF'd today who were SOS/Masters complete on the VSP Force Shaping thread!

[Infamous]

https://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-joins-army-marines-in-cutting-tuition-assistance-1.211417

Bump!!!!

[HeloDude]

Just got the email from the CSAF--interesting that they put something to the effect of 'potentially changing eligibility requirements for future sustainability'. Fortunately I used all of mine years ago, though I had hoped in the future to have used the one-time certificate deal...probably won't happen now.

IMO this plays right into the Big Blue's hands: This way they can get their officers to do the SOS/ACSC Masters PME (whatever it's called) and then save money by not using TA while at the same time getting more people to do their masters program because it will still be free. Thoughts?