Tuition Assistance Cuts

[Rusty Pipes]

However, you choose where to get the degree from and when to start it. If you choose to get a worthless box checking degree with your TA and then turn around and say that it is wasting tax payer dollars then aren't you part of the problem? Aren't you taking part in the whole problem that you are complaining about?

Taking away TA does not equal getting rid of the education requirements for promotion like many enlisted people are realizing right now. You can choose to get a real degree and start it early so you only have to take one class at a time. This is doable.

I'm not sure what Air Force you have been in for the past decade or so, but it certainly wasn't the same one I've been in! I would have LOVED to gotten a real masters from a real school where you actually go to class with real professors... the only problem is that most real schools don't let you be absent from 90% of their classes and still let you pass. I called Harvard Business School... not sure their online MBA will be coming anytime soon.

I have no idea what your background is as an aviator, but you are not even close to the target on this one. Of all of us who got our useless masters degrees from Embry Riddle... how many do you think would have got a masters at all if it wasn't a requirement for advancement? I guarantee that if they hadn't made this stupid AAD requirement to get promoted a few years ago there would be a bunch of Officers on here right now saying, "Man, sucks for the E's that they cut TA!" We aren't a part of the problem, we're a result of the problem.

Taking TA away may not get rid of the promotion requirement right away, but it will soon enough... otherwise they won't have anyone to promote. I'd say the vast majority of those out there getting these useless degrees were just playing the game because TA was paying for it anyway. Might be easy for me to say now because I already have my tax payer useless degree paid with TA, but if you told me back then that I had to pay for it out of pocket or use my GI Bill I certainly wouldn't have a masters degree right now, but if I did it most certainly wouldn't have been from Embry Riddle Online!!!

[HeloDude]

It appears that there is bipartisan support in the Senate to pass an amendment to force the DoD to reinstate TA. Be interesting to see where this one goes.

[guineapigfury]

Wait, so the Lt Mafia at your base are such gluttons for punishment that they are actually begging to reinstate the principle driving force behind the "unofficial" Masters requirement? Presumably out of fear of being left behind? Tell them to look around. If they aren't funded to complete their useless Masters, nobody else is either. WTF is wrong with the AF today? Ugh.

You're misreading this, at least if the Lts in my squadron are an accurate indicator. Most of them are ambivalent at best about staying for 20. I think you're seeing guys annoyed that their early FENCE out is delayed.

[HU&W]

[spaw2001]

As for grad degrees, yes I do believe they are important and yes I do believe that for the most part they help make people better (read: smarter) leaders. Just because some folks don't take advantage of opportunity doesn't mean the program is a bad idea. Education in any form is an investment that always pays off.

This cutting of TA is exactly what it appears, an attempt to inflict some pain and suffering within the workforce. We all know there are numerous other programs where monies could be cut with less effect, but the leadership needs something that's going to motivate people to complain. I think it's a poor tactic but that's how the game is being played currently. This forced budget situation is not going to solve any problems, nor are responses such as cutting TA; what is needed is a more and better thought-out plan on how to reduce spending over the long term. We all know it can be done without sacrificing necessary programs such as TA, but if someone actually worked within the intent and did reduce wasteful spending that didn't result in any impact on the mission then it would only lead to calls for more cuts...

This is dead on. Remember socialism is for the people and not the socialists. This is extremely typical of a progressive society. When the expansionary government does not get its way, it inflicts pain on the people to make the case for more government.

While this action is grotesque at the macro level, I am also sick and tired of even so-called conservative military people wrapping themselves in a patriotic flag and saying "cut everyone else's program but don't touch mine because I've served"...Seriously, stop giving yourself so much credit..You are most likely not George Washington. Also, please stop posting snarky facebook posts about reinstating TA or having me sign some dumbass petition.

The way I look at it, this is a grand opportunity for the Air Force to rethink its galactically moronic position on education. Furthermore, it will punish for profit "diploma hot dog stands" for using governmnt treasure to peddle their fraudulent product.

Edited March 16, 2013 by spaw2001

[pcola]

How about Enlisted who were obtaining degrees?

First, I highly doubt the "Lt Mafia" specified by VSU and whom I was targeting were running a petition for the benefit of the E's getting degrees.

But to answer your question directly: what about them? I was enlisted in the Navy in the mid 90s before commissioning. I don't think we even had TA, because I never heard about it, and if we did, I'm sure it wasn't 100%. You know what I did? Used the many other financing options available to a veteran: GI bill, IL veterans grant, Pell grants, MAP grants, etc. Where there's a will, there's a way, and in a climate of "belt tightening and fat trimming" this is a clean kill. The TA program had morphed into a cash cow for "military friendly" for profit institutions. Good riddance.

If you are pursuing a degree that is genuinely useful and will help you to advance your post AF career, you are not likely to let the lack of TA stop you; as I mentioned, there are many avenues. On the other hand, if your only goal in getting your TA funded degree is to attain a promotion metric, well, you may not be quite as likely to burn your other benefits, which is my exact definition of "trimming fat."

Edited March 16, 2013 by pcola

[Fuzz]

What about the guys that got picked up for OTS pending the completion of their degree? Now they have to scramble to find the money for their last semester...I know its not impossible but still poor technique in my opinion to do that to them.

Rumor mill is they are slashing ROTC cadet stipends by a $100 a month, no word on whether the Academy will also.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Scaredfuzz21

[pcola]

What about the guys that got picked up for OTS pending the completion of their degree? Now they have to scramble to find the money for their last semester...I know its not impossible but still poor technique in my opinion to do that to them.

So, what's that, like 5 dudes? What, we should keep burning millions on TA so that 5 dudes don't get screwed? Kind of like banning "Christmas" from schools so as not to offend the few non-Christians...

[HU&W]

What about the guys that got picked up for OTS pending the completion of their degree? Now they have to scramble to find the money for their last semester...I know its not impossible but still poor technique in my opinion to do that to them.

Rumor mill is they are slashing ROTC cadet stipends by a $100 a month, no word on whether the Academy will also.

If I had an OTS slot and was pending completion of my degree, I would let nothing stop me from completing it. Sure, it sucks. It sucks like when you're getting ready to reenlist and your bonus goes from $80K to zero. It sucks when you miss promotion by 1 point when you would have gotten it the year before or after. It sucks when you want a specific plane that doesn't show up in your drop. It sucks when you get RIF'd a few months after you volunteer for VSP and get turned down. It sucks when you deploy to a place with no internet numerous times and have to keep dropping your final masters class, and then get passed for major for not having a masters.

Lots of things happen in the military that are out of our control, and they suck. That doesn't mean that when the bad stuff happens you just give up and stop progressing. You pick you self up, make a few small sacrifices now, and go to work. I certainly hope the 6-9 OTS selects who need a few more classes will figure it out. Or they won't.

[Fuzz]

So, what's that, like 5 dudes? What, we should keep burning millions on TA so that 5 dudes don't get screwed? Kind of like banning "Christmas" from schools so as not to offend the few non-Christians...

If I had an OTS slot and was pending completion of my degree, I would let nothing stop me from completing it. Sure, it sucks. It sucks like when you're getting ready to reenlist and your bonus goes from $80K to zero. It sucks when you miss promotion by 1 point when you would have gotten it the year before or after. It sucks when you want a specific plane that doesn't show up in your drop. It sucks when you get RIF'd a few months after you volunteer for VSP and get turned down. It sucks when you deploy to a place with no internet numerous times and have to keep dropping your final masters class, and then get passed for major for not having a masters.

Lots of things happen in the military that are out of our control, and they suck. That doesn't mean that when the bad stuff happens you just give up and stop progressing. You pick you self up, make a few small sacrifices now, and go to work. I certainly hope the 6-9 OTS selects who need a few more classes will figure it out. Or they won't.

I know there are options and like people said where there is a will there is a way, however I would have liked to see a little discretion in that area maybe to not suspend it for the guys that were picked up for the program. Not exactly like they have the paycheck of a midlevel captain who probably won't be hurt that bad having to throw down some money to get that last class in the meantime. Its a crap sandwich all the way around.

[HU&W]

One interesting note. Here's the actual guidance that was issued to the branches.

The Defense Department's comptroller issued guidance to all of the services to "consider significant reductions in funding new tuition assistance applicants, effective immediately and for the duration of the current fiscal situation," said Navy Cmdr. Leslie Hull-Ryde, a Pentagon spokeswoman.

I read it a little differently than what was implemented. Perhaps I'm reading this a little too literally. To me, new tuition assistance applicants would only be those not established in a TA supported degree plan. I understand why we chose to implement what we did, but it doesn't seem to meet the intent of the issued guidance.

[Fuzz]

because it wasn't meant to make sense, it was meant to hurt, because one political party gambled and was called on their bluff and now are acting like little kids because they didn't get their way, hoping enough people will scream and shout.

[nsplayr]

One interesting note. Here's the actual guidance that was issued to the branches.

I read it a little differently than what was implemented. Perhaps I'm reading this a little too literally. To me, new tuition assistance applicants would only be those not established in a TA supported degree plan. I understand why we chose to implement what we did, but it doesn't seem to meet the intent of the issued guidance.

Because local guidance can always be more restrictive, even when doing so completely flies in the face of the higher-level guidance! I always love those conundrums...

because it wasn't meant to make sense, it was meant to hurt, because one both political parties gambled and were called on their bluff and now are acting like little kids because they didn't get their way, hoping enough people will scream and shout.

FIFY. Both Democrats and Republicans signed off on this mess hoping it would force them to act, and now we're all here holding the bag because they were collectively incapable of working together even to avert a self-styled kick in the balls.

[Spartacus]

I'm not sure what Air Force you have been in for the past decade or so, but it certainly wasn't the same one I've been in! I would have LOVED to gotten a real masters from a real school where you actually go to class with real professors... the only problem is that most real schools don't let you be absent from 90% of their classes and still let you pass. I called Harvard Business School... not sure their online MBA will be coming anytime soon.

I have no idea what your background is as an aviator, but you are not even close to the target on this one. Of all of us who got our useless masters degrees from Embry Riddle... how many do you think would have got a masters at all if it wasn't a requirement for advancement? I guarantee that if they hadn't made this stupid AAD requirement to get promoted a few years ago there would be a bunch of Officers on here right now saying, "Man, sucks for the E's that they cut TA!" We aren't a part of the problem, we're a result of the problem.

Taking TA away may not get rid of the promotion requirement right away, but it will soon enough... otherwise they won't have anyone to promote. I'd say the vast majority of those out there getting these useless degrees were just playing the game because TA was paying for it anyway. Might be easy for me to say now because I already have my tax payer useless degree paid with TA, but if you told me back then that I had to pay for it out of pocket or use my GI Bill I certainly wouldn't have a masters degree right now, but if I did it most certainly wouldn't have been from Embry Riddle Online!!!

Well, dude maybe you haven't been looking hard enough? Every base that I have been at has had a brick and mortar school within 15 min to 2 hours away. And guess what? I personally knew people at each location that were willing to make that drive to get their degree. I have known people that took leave to finish up classes, or who drove every Friday to their school to do weekend classes all weekend long. All of the people I am talking about are pilots too so I'm not talking about shoe clerks here. I'm a pointy nose type too so the people I am talking about did have a lot of other studying on their plate as well.

Look, like I said before I am not advocating this. I think it is ridiculous how the masters thing is set up and I wish you and I could just focus on our primary job and become better at what we do rather than having to worry about getting a masters. The system is broken beyond repair right now. However, I also think many here are kidding themselves. The bitch of an AF that we are in is not going to let up on the education demands for one minute just because we have a good CSAF right now or because TA went away. Besides, for every step that we take toward making things better will be negated by two steps back in a few years. It will be history repeating itself all over again. So, like I said before the TA being taken away is not a good thing. The shoe clerks will continue to get their degrees while many here will throttle back while they are kidding themselves into thinking that it will all get better. This will all end with a big smack in the face when you don't make Major or Lt Col because you fooled yourself, while a higher percentage of shoes will get the "S" next to their name on the Major selection list. I personally have seen people in my squadron and friends of mine all over the AF throttling back due to this thinking and who have been dropping masters classes left and right because of this TA cut. This is going to hurt them. So, again, and lastly, you all can think what you want and fool yourselves into believing that we need to be willing to give up things like TA, but you are losing a battle for scarce resources that you were promised and that you have earned and deserve. You have less money now because you have to pay more out of pocket while our elected leaders have given up nothing and while more and more people who are doing nothing for themselves are continuing to get more and more welfare.

[Danger41]

So, what's that, like 5 dudes? What, we should keep burning millions on TA so that 5 dudes don't get screwed? Kind of like banning "Christmas" from schools so as not to offend the few non-Christians...

It's actually not that uncommon. I did it this way and so did about 10 others in my class.

[Jaded]

Well, dude maybe you haven't been looking hard enough? Every base that I have been at has had a brick and mortar school within 15 min to 2 hours away.

Spent any time overseas? In Asia?

[Mark1]

...I am also sick and tired of even so-called conservative military people wrapping themselves in a patriotic flag and saying "cut everyone else's program but don't touch mine because I've served"...Seriously, stop giving yourself so much credit...

The way I look at it, this is a grand opportunity for the Air Force to rethink its galactically moronic position on education. Furthermore, it will punish for profit "diploma hot dog stands" for using governmnt treasure to peddle their fraudulent product.

Yes, yes, yes.

It's sad how few share your perspective. It's completely taboo to do anything that affects 'our beloved troops'...and the troops themselves are the worst offenders when it comes to complaints over the issue. It's always boggled my mind that a group of people who said they'd sacrifice their life, if necessary, in this endeavor called the military, won't make other relatively inconsequential sacrifices without bitching and moaning.

How many times have you heard 'the entitlement generation' or some similar characterization used on this forum in a negative context? But then when the entitlement is yours, it's all of the sudden a problem. The fact is, sadly, that the military community is as a whole no different than the rest of the nation.

In fact, I'd argue that it's worse in some circumstances. To call it the 'entitlement generation' isn't completely accurate. I don't believe that most people truely think they're *entitled* to a lot of the handouts that exist, they just enjoy free stuff and will gripe when it's taken away. Many military members, however, really do have a sense of entitlement, believing that their service somehow puts the U.S. in their debt.

Shoveling millions of dollars towards for profit colleges that are specially designed to exploit the TA program while providing the lowest quality (and therefore least expensive) education possible SHOULD be done away with. Whether it's the most egregious waste of money or not. Whether it's a drop in the bucket or not. Whether it benefits our beloved troops or not.

Revise the program to be available for enlisted bachelors degrees at not-for-profit institutions only. Officers can pony up their own cash if they want a masters, or use their GI bill. And for those that are inevitably going to complain about that leaving it impossible for them to pass the GI bill on to their kids (it's already been complained about in this thread): that that's the next ridiculous entitlement that should be cut (the ability to transfer your benefit, not the GI Bill in it's entirety).

Unfortunately, there's already legislation in the works to restore TA because, god damnit, think of the troops!!! It's political suicide for anybody (republican or democrat alike) to make the difficult fiscal decisions that are necessary right now, and so far, nobody has had the fortitude to do it. Even when cuts are automatically made by faceless legislation they're immediately out in force trying to undo it.

This country is ######ed.

[HU&W]

How many times have you heard 'the entitlement generation' or some similar characterization used on this forum in a negative context? But then when the entitlement is yours, it's all of the sudden a problem. The fact is, sadly, that the military community is as a whole no different than the rest of the nation.

In fact, I'd argue that it's worse in some circumstances. To call it the 'entitlement generation' isn't completely accurate. I don't believe that most people truely think they're *entitled* to a lot of the handouts that exist, they just enjoy free stuff and will gripe when it's taken away. Many military members, however, really do have a sense of entitlement, believing that their service somehow puts the U.S. in their debt.

No. There is a difference between getting something for doing something and getting something for being something. What you are talking about is the expectation that people have that they will get something, free healthcare, welfare, etc for just being an American citizen. Or worse, just being located in the United States. The 'entitlement generation' expects to get something for nothing.

TA, as badly as it has been implemented and with all the previously discussed negative effects, is part of something called a total compensation package. Compensation is something you get in return for something you do. Our military compensation package includes numerous compensatory benefits above our arguably low base pay (especially for our junior enlisted). Some of those benefits are occasional use, and some are more valuable than others. This is no different than most decent jobs. Removing expected benefits from the total compensation package is indeed a pay cut and should be viewed as nothing else.

It's disgusting that compensation to military for doing their JOB is politically optional when extending similar entitlements to people who do NOTHING but apply for them is mandatory.

[Spartacus]

Spent any time overseas? In Asia?

In that case there are online programs from respected schools that offer the same exact coursework and degrees that you would get if you were sitting in their classroom. The diploma also won't say "Worldwide online" on it either. There are ways to get normal degrees that actual mean something if you look hard enough.

[JeepGuyC17]

Spent any time overseas? In Asia?

Or in AMC? Good luck trying to have any predictability on when you'll be home from week to week, including weekends.

[Azimuth]

In that case there are online programs from respected schools that offer the same exact coursework and degrees that you would get if you were sitting in their classroom. The diploma also won't say "Worldwide online" on it either. There are ways to get normal degrees that actual mean something if you look hard enough.

Penn State has a good online program.

Or in AMC? Good luck trying to have any predictability on when you'll be home from week to week, including weekends.

I was in AMC for seven years and had an Internet connection 99.69% of the time while on the road.

[JeepGuyC17]

Penn State has a good online program.

I was in AMC for seven years and had an Internet connection 99.69% of the time while on the road.

Sorry, this was in reference to the suggestion that I should drive to a brick and mortar school on the weekends.

[morenoj135]

This is dead on. Remember socialism is for the people and not the socialists. This is extremely typical of a progressive society. When the expansionary government does not get its way, it inflicts pain on the people to make the case for more government.

While this action is grotesque at the macro level, I am also sick and tired of even so-called conservative military people wrapping themselves in a patriotic flag and saying "cut everyone else's program but don't touch mine because I've served"...Seriously, stop giving yourself so much credit..You are most likely not George Washington. Also, please stop posting snarky facebook posts about reinstating TA or having me sign some dumbass petition.

The way I look at it, this is a grand opportunity for the Air Force to rethink its galactically moronic position on education. Furthermore, it will punish for profit "diploma hot dog stands" for using governmnt treasure to peddle their fraudulent product.

It's not about socialism or any other such "ism" it's all about taking a vulnerable part of our population and buying thier vote, it's that simple

[Rusty Pipes]

Well, dude maybe you haven't been looking hard enough? Every base that I have been at has had a brick and mortar school within 15 min to 2 hours away. And guess what? I personally knew people at each location that were willing to make that drive to get their degree. I have known people that took leave to finish up classes, or who drove every Friday to their school to do weekend classes all weekend long. All of the people I am talking about are pilots too so I'm not talking about shoe clerks here. I'm a pointy nose type too so the people I am talking about did have a lot of other studying on their plate as well.

We are in different Air Forces. This is not a CAF/MAF debate, but what you said above hasn't really been an option for 90% of MAF guys for the past 10 yrs. Between 2003-2008 your typical C-17 Capt (CP or young AC) was doing 3 weeks on the road with between 18 hrs and 2 days at home before heading back out for another 3 weeks... Tanker toads were doing 60 on 60 off... Slick guys were doing 120 on 60 off... C-5s were the same as the C-17... Spec Ops 130 guys, well they were just gone. The point is that at all of those bases there were brick and mortar schools that were close by, but any "real" school with a "real" professor isn't going to let you be a full time student in their program where you can't attend 90% of the classes. For these people (I was one of them), Embry Riddle or the old Toro was the only option. You can say that there are "respected" schools with online programs, but those aren't real degrees either. Your Masters degree from the University of Maryland at College Park is not the same as my Masters degree from University of Maryland University College at College Park (online). Just like a Masters degree from Embry Riddle is not the same as Embry Riddle Worldwide which is printed on the diploma I have stuffed in a box in the garage somewhere.

I have a buddy from UPT who did 2 Ops tours in F-15C's who has about 1,300 hrs and zero Combat hours and a 120 day CAOC tour... another buddy in KC-135s with 2 Ops tours that has 4,500 hrs with almost 4,000 Combat hrs and a dozen Air Medals (only because he just stopped putting in for them) and a dozen or so deployments to the sand box. Both are great dudes and great pilots; both played the box checking game... but yeah, because of the type of war we have been in for the past 11 yrs and how each of their MWS's were employed they were most definitely in 2 different Air Forces. One has a Masters from a brick and mortar school, the other from Embry Riddle... I'll let you figure out who has what. I guarantee you that Embry Riddle was not his first choice. I guess it doesn't matter now because they were both on terminal leave a month before their ADSC was up... one using his real MBA now and the other just got hired by a Major Airline a few weeks ago... I'm pretty sure that Embry Riddle masters was not a factor in the hiring process, but the real MBA was.

[pawnman]

I certainly would not have devoted the time and effort for my online MBA if the AF didn't force me to. Even if the AF told me it was required for promotion, but I was going to pay for it myself, I would have mulled over my options for quite some time before committing myself to $10K + out of pocket for a chance to be slightly more competitive than my peers on a promotion board with an 80%+ selection rate.

Further, if the Air Force wanted me to get a real degree, with a real time investment, they would create opportunities for it. Even with TA paying for my online school, I still took the easiest route I could. Why? The Air Force already pulls me away from my family enough with deployments, TDYs, early morning and late night flights/SOF/Top 3, OREs/ORIs, working weekends to prepare for said OREs/ORIs, the list goes on. I wasn't going to give the Air Force even MORE of my time by committing to a program that would require hours every night to complete. I was not about to tell my daughter "Sorry, I haven't seen you in three days, but I can't play right now because I have to write a 20 page thesis".

If I want to invest my time, money, and effort in a real master's, having a BS online MBA won't stop that. But it does put the check in the box in the fastest manner possible. If the Air Force values education, they'll stop making it a box to check and invest in actual educational options.