Lack of Flight Discipline

[Day Man]

^ Not sure if serious.....

Dick Hertz? Come on old man!

[Champ Kind]

Touché -- seen stranger names though!

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Dick Hertz? Come on old man!

Was at the Deid in 2003, and we were drinking at the O'Club bar with some Navy Reserve C-20G dudes. One of them had "Heywood Jablome" on his name tag. One of the clueless O-5s (USAF of course) walked up to him and said "hey, how do you pronounce your last name? Is it Jablome as in rhymes with Jerome?". Dude just looked at him for a few seconds and said "Yeah" and went back to drinking.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Perhaps such sternly worded e-mails will work at the Deid too....

-----------Message-----------

From: Hertz, Richard BGen USAF, XXWG/CC

To: XXWG/ALL

Subject: Final Warning

I'm typing this as sternly as I can. There will be no more warnings on this issue: Wear your reflective belts and tuck in your PT shirts! I will have my group commanders patrolling the base 24/7 for those violating my sternly stated rule. If you are caught violating my rules, you will have to report to me in full PT gear with your commander and his commander, and his commander which is probably me, but I'll be there anyway! Your punishment will be cleaning the plumbing in the men's shower with your bare hands!

//// SIGNED ////

Commander

P.S. And stop masturbating in the showers!

You know, the sad thing is I had to decode the name before I realized that this is most likely a spoof. It would be much funnier if it weren't so close to the truth about that awful place.

[Champ Kind]

That's what I was getting at. I glossed over the name, and the "PS" was obviously sarcastic, but the rest seemed to be pretty much what I would expect from the dickless upper managers that predominantly hold "leadership" positions in our service.

[Guest]

Maybe the guys at the top feel like the wheels are coming off. They've got a pilot force that is highly combat experienced but bored now that the action is winding down. The force is also disgruntled due to personnel policies. They're probably scared shitless that they've got a bunch of dudes who feel like they've got nothing to lose. Once again leadership uses the only tool in their toolbox: sternly worded emails.

Ala Post Vietnam Era.

[Finger Four]

Really? If this happened those dudes are retards, they're not in their single-seat cockpit anymore or never were there in the first place. Crushing a dudes balls for busting flight discipline makes you a p*ssy now?

Attitudes like that lead to: "Mishap crew...(insert 69 pages of an O-6 driven board)" & BUFF/C-17 Fireballs

2.

[CJ-6A]

Really? If this happened those dudes are retards, they're not in their single-seat cockpit anymore or never were there in the first place.

If this would have happened 30 or 40 years ago, it would have been a non-event. Besides, there's nothing structurally unsafe about rolling a King Air. Anyone want to take a shot a Bob Hoover for not having flight discipline in his Air Force career.... or any other pilot of his generation? This should have been a non-event.

[TrainerModel]

If this would have happened 30 or 40 years ago, it would have been a non-event. Besides, there's nothing structurally unsafe about rolling a King Air.

Yea, f*ck me right? I'm a p*ssy, for not wanting to put a prop-job thats at max gross with shit hanging off it and weird CG on its belly. If you think its a non-event do it, put it up on youtube and tell you sq/cc about this non-event.

Besides, there's nothing structurally unsafe about rolling a King Air over banking a BUFF. Anyone want to take a shot a Bob Hoover Bud Holland for not having flight discipline in his Air Force career....

FIFY.

Yea, we've all had that "that was luck/stupid" moments, but this is negligence.

[Ferg]

This should have been a non-event.

IMHBAO, this seems like an over reaction to something that could've been handled in the SQ/DOs office.

Okay, I'll be the asshole. If what has been said is true, and somebody barrel rolled an MC-12, get them the fuck out of the Air Force. Flying a little low on a flyby is one thing - easily handled in the DO's office. Same for hugging the deck too closely or jacking the nose up too high on an unrestricted climb. Knowing nothing about the situation, this sounds like a couple dudes who pushed the limits of an aircraft past what is allowed in the T.O. This isn't a "momentary deviation", it is a willful breach of flight discipline. The Bud Holland analogy is spot on. Why in the world would you want somebody like this flying with you?

[LL Windshear]

After making multiple comments regarding this topic, then subsequently erasing them, I'll just say this: My SQ/CC kept it vague, and said that as long as we abide by the King Air POH regarding prohibited maneuvers, we'll be fine. No further comments from me, except to say that I don't teach, nor do I advocate barrel rolls in the MC-12W. BL, I want the crews I send downrange to return home with their wings and their asses intact.

[Jaded]

Same for hugging the deck too closely or jacking the nose up too high on an unrestricted climb.

WTF are you talking about? How many degrees nose high is "too high" on an unrestricted climb? 91?

[flyguy2181]

WTF are you talking about? How many degrees nose high is "too high" on an unrestricted climb? 91?

All different types of aircraft get cleared unrestricted climb on tactical departures. From the FAA handbook, "To the maximum extent possible, Air Force One will be cleared unrestricted climb to......" So yeah, I'd say 91 degrees would be too much for AF1.

And this is besides the point he was trying to make.

[sky_king]

Sounds like he probably dropped his pencil and got into an unusual attitude to me.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Yea, f*ck me right? I'm a p*ssy, for not wanting to put a prop-job thats at max gross with shit hanging off it and weird CG on its belly. If you think its a non-event do it, put it up on youtube and tell you sq/cc about this non-event.

FIFY.

Yea, we've all had that "that was luck/stupid" moments, but this is negligence.

I couldn't agree more. Those guys implying that people advocating flight discipline are a bunch of poontangs probably need to spend some more time in their squadron's safety office. There is a long and bloody history of people who really pushed the limits of their airplanes. It's one thing when a fighter guy does it, because usually he just kills himself, but when you do it on a crew aircraft you just killed your crew because of your own stupidity.

It's one thing to explore the flight envelope of your airplane; however, it's another to willingly violate TO and AFI guidance regarding the operation of your airplane. We've all had self-induced moments that we've looked back on (either immediately or some time after) and realized just how stupid and potentially dangerous they were. People who haven't fall into two categories, either they are brand new, and their time is coming, or they are genuinely dangerous and are unable to see how dangerous their actions potentially are.

[CJ-6A]

Yea, f*ck me right? I'm a p*ssy, for not wanting to put a prop-job thats at max gross with shit hanging off it and weird CG on its belly. If you think its a non-event do it, put it up on youtube and tell you sq/cc about this non-event.

FIFY.

Yea, we've all had that "that was luck/stupid" moments, but this is negligence.

The comparison to Bud Holland is a stupid one at best. Near knife edge close to the ground with a huge aircraft (i.e. BUFF or C-17) is a totally different event than doing a roll in a King Air at altitude. You don't know the details and if you did, you'd probably be less likely to make a comparison to Bud Holland.

It's one thing to explore the flight envelope of your airplane; however, it's another to willingly violate TO and AFI guidance regarding the operation of your airplane.

What TO/AFI guidance says not to roll a King Air?

The aircraft did not exceed its G-limits, airspeed, or come close to a CFIT scenario.

[SurelySerious]

What TO/AFI guidance says not to roll a King Air?

What does it say?

[BitteEinBit]

I hate to keep bringing up my Navy past, but some people are rewarded for their "dangerous" behavior. I had a buddy, Lt Pete "Maverick" Mitchell who was a great stick, but notorious for being dangerous....lost his qualifications as section leader three times, he was put in hack by the XO twice with a history of high-speed passes, 7 unauthorized tower flybys, and I think he even banged the WG/CC Adm Benjamin's daughter...I think her name was Peggy or something like that. This guy was "dangerous." Anyway, he ended up going to Navy FWIC and put one in the water (even though the flying footage had him flying in the mountains with no water in sight...but thats another story) and killed his RIO. While it was ruled an accident, his history of dangerous flying put him in the hotseat during the abnormally short AIB. Anyway, it took him a while to bounce back but he ended up graduating and they made him a FWIC IP after all that...and he was banging one of the instructors as a student. Talk about dangerous AND a rule violator! He is pretty cocky and doesn't think rules apply to him...and in our business that....is dangerous..(click)....dangerous!

Another guy in his class was just as cocky and that too can be dangerous. Like it was said before, it is one thing in a fighter, but this guy retired and took that dangerous cockiness with him to the airlines! Not the kind of guy I want to be flying with in the military, let alone with 200+ passengers and 5 hot flight attendants I'm trying to bang on board.

Dangerous

There are some lessons to be learned here!

Edited December 11, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[Prozac]

We had a similar issue wen I was flying the C-21. When I was first qual'd in the jet it was said that it was kind of a right of passage to roll it. The airplane was most definitely capable of accomplishing the maneuver. Did that make it smart? Not sure what the MC-12 T.O. says, but I'm pretty sure aerobatics were prohibited in the C-21. If you're fortunate enough to own your own airplane, go out and push the envelope all you want. Don't do it with a piece of government property and expect to come out unscathed though.

[nsplayr]

What TO/AFI guidance says not to roll a King Air?

The aircraft did not exceed its G-limits, airspeed, or come close to a CFIT scenario.

Dude, here's my safety rule of thumb...can you, with a straight face, explain to the Boss why it was necessary to perform that maneuver to accomplish your mission? If not, don't do it.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I'm not familiar with the MC-12W TO, but most transport-category aircraft have roll and sometimes even pitch limitations. The C-21 had a 70 degree max AOB limit.

CJ-6, aircraft like that aren't flown that way for a number of reasons. Sure, a barrel roll is a 1g maneuver if FLOWN CORRECTLY, but if you unload the aircraft at any point it can easily go negative, and if it's at all like the C-21, it's not designed for inverted flight.

Back in the 1980s, some dudes rolled a C-21, ed it up, and it departed controlled flight. They lost a significant amount of altitude and it scared the hell out of them so much that they told on themselves. Anyone saying it's "ok" to do acro in an airplane that's not certified for it is ing crazy.

[BitteEinBit]

2,

I'm not going to trash these guys at all because I don't know the whole story, but I just can't imagine cruising at FL280 in an aircraft not designed or certified for acro, and all of the sudden thinking..."Dude, we should do a barrel roll" and then have the guy in the other seat say "Yeah, thats a great idea!"

I'd like to know "the rest of the story..."

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

What TO/AFI guidance says not to roll a King Air?

The aircraft did not exceed its G-limits, airspeed, or come close to a CFIT scenario.

Granted I haven't read 11-2MC-12v3 or the -1 for the airplane, but I'd be willing to bet there is some sort of catchall prohibition on "aerobatics" in there.

[Homestar]

Anyone saying it's "ok" to do acro in an airplane that's not certified for it is ######ing crazy.

Spot on. If the airplane isn't cert'd for acro then I'd hand it off to a test pilot before flying acro in it.

But I'm a 1.0 g man myself. 1.2 at the worst...and only in the break. :)

[Rokke]

Dude, here's my safety rule of thumb...can you, with a straight face, explain to the Boss why it was necessary to perform that maneuver to accomplish your mission? If not, don't do it.

When Ron Keys was my WG/CC he called all the pilots on base to the club (back when clubs were fun) and spelled things out almost exactly like that. He told us "when you're flying I want you to picture my face in your HUD. If you can't explain to me what you're doing, you probably shouldn't be doing it." Good advice and it has served me well in every airplane since.