IFS and the right sight picture......

[LookieRookie]

Did I fly your checkride?? Regarding GK, it's less in-depth at IFS than at UPT for sure. It's required to be at a 3 level (Fair=Safe Level). More or less an inch deep, but a mile wide.

Good luck in the next phase of the journey to get your wings.

Smokey

Thanks and yea I flew with you. I was the one with the 12-04 Johnny Bravo patch that you showed the POGO videos to after. Start academics next Wednesday at CBM

[ZoomieRugby]

A couple of guys from IFS came to the Zoo the other day and briefed those of us headed to UPT. They talked a lot about how the program will be tough and really emphasized not falling in to the "PPL trap" as they called it. Good info to hear. Anyone know how the DA-20 compares to the DA-40? Other than two fewer seats of course.

[Miles]

Private Pilot License Trap???? Newbie here. what does that intel

Edited January 23, 2012 by Miles

[HiFlyer]

"PPL Trap" is probably intended by the writer to mean the false conclusion that just because you already know how to fly (have a PPL) that you can sail through IFS without much effort. As noted earlier, IFS is not really about flying, its about learning to learn the AF way. Actual flying is not the only issue you'll have to deal with. The same thing sometimes happens at UPT, when some higher time civilian pilots assume thay can coast through the program, only to fall behind and have a hard time catching up (and recouping lost IP points for having a bad attitude!).

[brabus]

Anyone know how the DA-20 compares to the DA-40?

Been quite a while since I've flown either, but from what I remember they're very similar to fly besides the obvious (DA-40 is a bit larger, has higher V speeds (not by much), etc). Either way, if you have DA-40 time, the "transition" will be relatively seemless.

[HiFlyer]

Been quite a while since I've flown either, but from what I remember they're very similar to fly besides the obvious (DA-40 is a bit larger, has higher V speeds (not by much), etc). Either way, if you have DA-40 time, the "transition" will be relatively seemless.

I've done both, too. As I recall, the -40 feels a little less "flighty" and doesn't float quite so much, and the speeds are about 5 kts faster because gross weight is a little higher, but neither are huge factors in the feel.

[ZoomieRugby]

Been quite a while since I've flown either, but from what I remember they're very similar to fly besides the obvious (DA-40 is a bit larger, has higher V speeds (not by much), etc). Either way, if you have DA-40 time, the "transition" will be relatively seemless.

Thanks. And yes Miles and HiFlyer I meant Private Pilot's License

[JakeFSU]

Thanks. And yes Miles and HiFlyer I meant Private Pilot's License

I've flown in both aircraft recently. I have most of my time is in the DA-20, but it started having maintenance issues so I flew the DA-40. The first time I flew DA-40 I actually soloed in it, so the transition is easy. For me the biggest difference was the fixed prop, it adds an extra step in your checklists. Also figuring out the glass cockpit instead of the normal 6 pack took some getting use to.

Now to actually answer your question, there isn't going to be any differences between getting your PPL in a DA-40 then there would be in a Cessna 150. However, your wallet might feel differently...the DA-40 will probably be at the higher end in costs. It was definitely a smooth aircraft to fly.

[so.it.goes]

"PPL Trap" is probably intended by the writer to mean the false conclusion that just because you already know how to fly (have a PPL) that you can sail through IFS without much effort. As noted earlier, IFS is not really about flying, its about learning to learn the AF way. Actual flying is not the only issue you'll have to deal with. The same thing sometimes happens at UPT, when some higher time civilian pilots assume thay can coast through the program, only to fall behind and have a hard time catching up (and recouping lost IP points for having a bad attitude!).

I've heard the above sentiment quite a bit. However, I've also read on here (and heard from a VERY recent grad) that IFS openly states that it is tailored for zero time candidates, but that this is not actually the case, and that it is actually a big disadvantage to have zero time...

Are there still a lot of zero time guys even going through at this point or has the increased competition for slots over the past two years or so eliminated most from going in completely "cold"?

[HiFlyer]

I've heard the above sentiment quite a bit. However, I've also read on here (and heard from a VERY recent grad) that IFS openly states that it is tailored for zero time candidates, but that this is not actually the case, and that it is actually a big disadvantage to have zero time...

Are there still a lot of zero time guys even going through at this point or has the increased competition for slots over the past two years or so eliminated most from going in completely "cold"?

Perhaps an issue of semantics. Being tailored (syllabus designed for) for zero time students is not the same as meaning experience is not valuable. While the program is tailored to zero timers that does not mean that previous flying time doesn't help you in several ways (flight proficiency, technique, knowledge of the FAA system, etc.). Lack of previous flight experience deprives you of a comfort factor, places a work load on you that a more experienced student may not have, and adds to the stress. However, the program is set up such that a zero timer can succeed if he/she applies himself/herself diligently, and many do. I believe that a pretty hefty percentage of pilot applicants have some prior flight time (given the competition for slots), but I suspect the CSO and RPA studs don't, and they still make it through with a respectable success rate if they apply themselves and don't throw in the towel because of the pressure (it is a screening program, after all, so that is exactly the way its supposed to work).

I made it thru a similar progam many years ago, my son succeeded at IFS, and both of us agree that the key was to take it very seriously and work your ass off (I had no time, he had a PPL). Those who don't do so from the start risk getting behind and there's little time to catch up. Ultimately its up to the individual to recognise the training situation and respond, or risk washing out regardless of whether "flying" is easy or not.

[bfargin]

.... Jeez, the spin BF alone was 27 words long....

Smokey

It's more than 27 words long and I can still say that stupid spin boldface and it's been 22 years since I last flew the Tweet. It's crazy how some things stick in your head.

[db84]

I've heard the above sentiment quite a bit. However, I've also read on here (and heard from a VERY recent grad) that IFS openly states that it is tailored for zero time candidates, but that this is not actually the case, and that it is actually a big disadvantage to have zero time...

IFS is definitely a zero hour program, out of my flight of 24 only 5 or 6 of us had any previous flight time. 3 guys did wash out, but 2 of them simply didn't put in the study time on the ground so that they would be able to perform in the air. So while I think getting some flight time certainly helps, in this case 17 out of 18 folks with no flight time made it through. To me that means you aren't disadvantaged by showing up having never flown before. If you are willing to bust your ass while you're there you will be able to get by, even with zero hours.

Edited January 24, 2012 by db84

[Smokey]

It's more than 27 words long and I can still say that stupid spin boldface and it's been 22 years since I last flew the Tweet. It's crazy how some things stick in your head.

This is what it was when I went through.........

THROTTLES - IDLE

RUDDER AND AILERONS - NEUTRAL

STICK - ABRUPTLY FULL AFT AND HOLD

RUDDER - ABRUPTLY APPLY FULL RUDDER OPPOSITE SPIN DIRECTION, OPPOSITE TURN NEEDLE, AND HOLD

STICK - ABRUPTLY FULL FORWARD ONE TURN AFTER APPLYING RUDDER

CONTROLS - NEUTRAL AFTER SPINNING STOPS AND RECOVER FROM DIVE

And, you're right....43 words...don't know where 27 came from. And, why do I still remember that? I won't say how many years ago it was! And, to anyone curious, I didn't cheat!

Cheers,

Smokey

[so.it.goes]

IFS is definitely a zero hour program, out of my flight of 24 only 5 or 6 of us had any previous flight time. 3 guys did wash out, but 2 of them simply didn't put in the study time on the ground so that they would be able to perform in the air. So while I think getting some flight time certainly helps, in this case 17 out of 18 folks with no flight time made it through. To me that means you aren't disadvantaged by showing up having never flown before. If you are willing to bust your ass while you're there you will be able to get by, even with zero hours.

That makes me think that it absolutely HAS to be the pace and style of learning that throws off the experienced pilots then (like the guy I know who just went through and said he doesn't know how zero time guys make it). Definitely makes me feel better, since I'm one of those guys who loves school/academics, and has good study habits.

Follow up question: I randomly bumped into a commercial pilot in a bar on a business trip recently and explained my AF situation to him. I told him about IFS and not really having the cash to add to my measly 12 hours, but that I was also worried about learning more before I got there.

He mentioned I should check out this Program from Sporty's (https://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/9559)... Said I would get a lot of practical info that would be useful, and that it would be the equivalent of several days of ground school and several hours of flight time.

It looks like all this company's instructional videos get great reviews, but anybody know if it would be of any benefit to use as a little prep work before IFS for someone like me with minimal flying hours?

[Smokey]

Thanks and yea I flew with you. I was the one with the 12-04 Johnny Bravo patch that you showed the POGO videos to after. Start academics next Wednesday at CBM

Excellent, I remember. Good luck at UPT. Stay frosty and work as a team within the flight. All the work and long days, good and bad, will be well worth it when you look back across the stage after you get your wings.

Smokey

[so.it.goes]

Perhaps an issue of semantics. Being tailored (syllabus designed for) for zero time students is not the same as meaning experience is not valuable. While the program is tailored to zero timers that does not mean that previous flying time doesn't help you in several ways (flight proficiency, technique, knowledge of the FAA system, etc.). Lack of previous flight experience deprives you of a comfort factor, places a work load on you that a more experienced student may not have, and adds to the stress. However, the program is set up such that a zero timer can succeed if he/she applies himself/herself diligently, and many do. I believe that a pretty hefty percentage of pilot applicants have some prior flight time (given the competition for slots), but I suspect the CSO and RPA studs don't, and they still make it through with a respectable success rate if they apply themselves and don't throw in the towel because of the pressure (it is a screening program, after all, so that is exactly the way its supposed to work).

I made it thru a similar progam many years ago, my son succeeded at IFS, and both of us agree that the key was to take it very seriously and work your ass off (I had no time, he had a PPL). Those who don't do so from the start risk getting behind and there's little time to catch up. Ultimately its up to the individual to recognise the training situation and respond, or risk washing out regardless of whether "flying" is easy or not.

Thanks for that, HiFlyer... Very valuable insight.

[Smokey]

"PPL Trap" is probably intended by the writer to mean the false conclusion that just because you already know how to fly (have a PPL) that you can sail through IFS without much effort. As noted earlier, IFS is not really about flying, its about learning to learn the AF way. Actual flying is not the only issue you'll have to deal with. The same thing sometimes happens at UPT, when some higher time civilian pilots assume thay can coast through the program, only to fall behind and have a hard time catching up (and recouping lost IP points for having a bad attitude!).

Great explanation. A few CFII's have washed out in the past. They certainly had the skill to make it through the course. They just didn't check the attitude at the door and refused to do what they were told.

Prior experience is an advantage to a degree. However, all must understand that with regards to flying proficiency, the graduation requirement on maneuvers is at the "3" level or "Fair" which equates to "safe" in the absolute grading scale used by AETC.

The issue comes with first not discarding how you did maneuver "x" before. I don't care. The second comes with not listening to the instructor when they tell you that you have to do this maneuver in this manner and continuing to disregard what you're being told to do. The third is not having the SA to realize that failing to ascribe to the procedures in a controlled/vanilla training environment and being unwilling to show me you can do it by the numbers is indicative of problems down range when the mission is far more important and not inclined to allow you to deliver that weapon however you want because you may kill friendles or may have an ineffective weapon. Bottom line, show me that you can put your airplane when-where-and how it is supposed to be consistently in a controlled environment. That demonstrates the ability to be able to handle the operational issues you'll have to deal with in an MWS when things happen and that in the end, you'll place the airplane in the position, time, and parameters to put it on target.

There's a larger "method to the madness" that an incoming 2Lt can understand....really. Deviations from the procedure/maneuver description need to be for cause rather than for convenience. In our case, that might only be caused by weather requiring a non-standard altitude on a departure or arrival due to weather.

In a broader sense, incoming IFS students need to look at the whole experience as an interview. Now, a smart applicant doesn't ignore or otherwise piss off their new potential employer by disregarding what they are telling them to do. The AF has invested very little in an IFS student and has no problem eliminating them if they demonstrate a lack of adaptability.

Attitude check.

[Smokey]

Been quite a while since I've flown either, but from what I remember they're very similar to fly besides the obvious (DA-40 is a bit larger, has higher V speeds (not by much), etc). Either way, if you have DA-40 time, the "transition" will be relatively seemless.

Regarding the aircraft similarities, there are many. And, yes, having experience in the 40 can help you in the 20. The real question comes down to what you were taught in the 40 and what you were expected to do.

If the experience came from Powered Flight at the Academy or anywhere else, realize we are going to ask you to fly the 20 in a specific manner....consistently....rather than some type of program that is more "orientation" in nature. Not a hit on the Powered Flight Program if that applies. Rather, a statement of fact that the two are not equal and have totally different mission objectives.

Smokey

[Smokey]

I've heard the above sentiment quite a bit. However, I've also read on here (and heard from a VERY recent grad) that IFS openly states that it is tailored for zero time candidates, but that this is not actually the case, and that it is actually a big disadvantage to have zero time...

Are there still a lot of zero time guys even going through at this point or has the increased competition for slots over the past two years or so eliminated most from going in completely "cold"?

I will again say that having a bit of flight experience will always help. Too much can be a problem if their is the wrong attitude to go with it.

Regarding zero time, I have washed out as many with experience as without. I have seen zero time guys truly outpace their prior time peers in a class when they have the right attitude, the right atributes, and the desire.

There are so many facets to this training that putting too much emphasis on prior flight time is failing to see the whole picture. That becomes apparent to most after about a week here.

Having said that, coming in with a concept of basic aircraft control and a few hours of stick time is a positive for a student in the respect that they aren't going to struggle on that topic as much while trying to handle all the other stuff.

Averages from the classes I've put through and the one I'm currently starting would indicate about 40 percent have no time, 40 percent have some (say 10 hours) experience, and 20 percent (usually guard/reserve, with some active having a PPL or higher).

You're question should be answered with that.

Smokey

[Smokey]

If anyone is curious, class 12-07D (Diesel Flight), 7 busts out of 26 on day one. Other flights sucked as well.

A challenge to all future IFS students, if a whole class, that means all 3 flights, passes the BF and OPs Limits day one, I'll buy the class a round on First Friday.

Safest bet I ever made.......

Smokey

[so.it.goes]

Follow up question: I randomly bumped into a commercial pilot in a bar on a business trip recently and explained my AF situation to him. I told him about IFS and not really having the cash to add to my measly 12 hours, but that I was also worried about learning more before I got there.

He mentioned I should check out this Program from Sporty's (https://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/9559)... Said I would get a lot of practical info that would be useful, and that it would be the equivalent of several days of ground school and several hours of flight time.

It looks like all this company's instructional videos get great reviews, but anybody know if it would be of any benefit to use as a little prep work before IFS for someone like me with minimal flying hours?

Smokey, not sure if you saw my follow-up question earlier, but you seem to be the go-to guy concerning IFS stuff so thought I would push it back to the bottom... Any experience or knowledge of the quality or usefulness of this program?

[Smokey]

Smokey, not sure if you saw my follow-up question earlier, but you seem to be the go-to guy concerning IFS stuff so thought I would push it back to the bottom... Any experience or knowledge of the quality or usefulness of this program?

I am not familiar with the specific product so can't say I would endorse it. There are many similar products out there as well.

I am sure conceptually the information is sound so long as it isn't taken to the point of "this is how you perform" a specific maneuver. Basic understanding of concepts such as aerodynamics or the principles of flight that such a program could provide would certainly be usefull. However, you can get the same by going through a local FBO and purchasing some basic FAA endorsed publications for much less.

Regardless of the source, the basic information that might yield some mental picture of the how and the what will always be beneficial. It will also begin to introduce concepts and terminology into your personal "tactical lexicon" and therefore put you at an advantage on day one.

So, I'll take the opportunity to use a specific example, an aircraft stall. If that program provides you with the understanding of why an aircraft stalls (exceeds the critical angle of attack), what happens aerodynamically during the stall, and what a pilot does to recover.....fine. You've gained some valuable information. Then realize, I'll tell you how I want you to set up the stall, what the trigger will be to initiate the recovery, and how you will be expected to recover from the stall to completion.

If you can keep that mindset, the information could be of use. General knowledge is power. The pilot or CSO that knows more about what is going on in all aspects has power and is confident.

The program you cited is a resource. It would give one source of basic information that if understood would help one put a framework around the IFS procedures.

There is no difference in the basics of aviation, aerodynamics, airspace, etc., from military and civilian flying. The real difference comes in the fact the AF doesn't fly for fun (but you should enjoy the flying, hopefully). Rather, the AF fly's to employ the aircraft to meet mission objectives and parameters. That would be basic flying maneuvers in IFS but performed in compliance with the IFS standards.

A different mindset than a GA pilot might bring into IFS.

Again, I'm sure the program is fine and would provide some good instruction if taken with the right approach.

Smokey

[so.it.goes]

I am not familiar with the specific product so can't say I would endorse it. There are many similar products out there as well.

I am sure conceptually the information is sound so long as it isn't taken to the point of "this is how you perform" a specific maneuver. Basic understanding of concepts such as aerodynamics or the principles of flight that such a program could provide would certainly be usefull. However, you can get the same by going through a local FBO and purchasing some basic FAA endorsed publications for much less.

Regardless of the source, the basic information that might yield some mental picture of the how and the what will always be beneficial. It will also begin to introduce concepts and terminology into your personal "tactical lexicon" and therefore put you at an advantage on day one.

So, I'll take the opportunity to use a specific example, an aircraft stall. If that program provides you with the understanding of why an aircraft stalls (exceeds the critical angle of attack), what happens aerodynamically during the stall, and what a pilot does to recover.....fine. You've gained some valuable information. Then realize, I'll tell you how I want you to set up the stall, what the trigger will be to initiate the recovery, and how you will be expected to recover from the stall to completion.

If you can keep that mindset, the information could be of use. General knowledge is power. The pilot or CSO that knows more about what is going on in all aspects has power and is confident.

The program you cited is a resource. It would give one source of basic information that if understood would help one put a framework around the IFS procedures.

There is no difference in the basics of aviation, aerodynamics, airspace, etc., from military and civilian flying. The real difference comes in the fact the AF doesn't fly for fun (but you should enjoy the flying, hopefully). Rather, the AF fly's to employ the aircraft to meet mission objectives and parameters. That would be basic flying maneuvers in IFS but performed in compliance with the IFS standards.

A different mindset than a GA pilot might bring into IFS.

Again, I'm sure the program is fine and would provide some good instruction if taken with the right approach.

Smokey

Understood, thanks...

[Miles]

If anyone is curious, class 12-07D (Diesel Flight), 7 busts out of 26 on day one. Other flights sucked as well.

A challenge to all future IFS students, if a whole class, that means all 3 flights, passes the BF and OPs Limits day one, I'll buy the class a round on First Friday.

Safest bet I ever made.......

Smokey

LOL i like this smokey, may have to hold you to that when our class comes through sir. ;)

[so.it.goes]

LOL i like this smokey, may have to hold you to that when our class comes through sir. ;)

When are you going, Miles?