IFS and the right sight picture......

[Smokey]

I hear what you're saying Rainman... it's just that if you can't make it through IFS, you can't go on to UPT. Just my opinion, but guys with prior time seemed to do better on average at IFS. A couple people failed out for not being able to land an airplane and would "need a couple more hours" for things to click (generally speaking, those people had no time). As far as the passion goes...perpetual airsickness, attitude, and not being able to land safely seemed to be big ticket items at IFS.

...just sayin' regardless of how prior time or "passion" for flying will help someone do in UPT, if you can't make it past IFS you don't really have a shot to prove it.

And the AF wants it that way. Limited resources be they IPs, planes or dollars. Just need a "couple" of more rides? How does that go on down range when the stuff gets more complicated....always need just a couple of more rides.

What we do at IFS is really not that complicated. Given much experience in the UPT environment, if they can't get it here.....it will continue to be a problem at the next level, and the next, etc. That's the purpose. Identify those without the potential to succeed at the next level. Training resources are not unlimited.

Personally, I believe I could get anyone through anything given unrestricted training. That ain't what we do, nor the person you want on your wing going into battle.

And there is much more than the issues of airsick, being able to land, etc., that causes a washout of IFS. SA, task mgmt, risk mgmt, and so on. Although we use a DA-20 to indoctrinate the SP into AF type of flying, my end game is to teach them what they need to know to begin their journey to becoming an AF pilot....not a DA-20 or GA pilot. Far from anything they could even hope for from any FBO. The GA aircraft we fly is merely the resource we use to do so.

There always has to be a minimum standard. This ain't charity work after all.

Smokey

Edited July 19, 2012 by Smokey

[CJ-6A]

And the AF wants it that way. Limited resources be they IPs, planes or dollars. Just need a "couple" of more rides? How does that go on down range when the stuff gets more complicated....always need just a couple of more rides.

What we do at IFS is really not that complicated. Given much experience in the UPT environment, if they can't get it here.....it will continue to be a problem at the next level, and the next, etc. That's the purpose. Identify those without the potential to succeed at the next level. Training resources are not unlimited.

Personally, I believe I could get anyone through anything given unrestricted training. That ain't what we do, nor the person you want on your wing going into battle.

And there is much more than the issues of airsick, being able to land, etc., that causes a washout of IFS. SA, task mgmt, risk mgmt, and so on. Although we use a DA-20 to indoctrinate the SP into AF type of flying, my end game is to teach them what they need to know to begin their journey to becoming an AF pilot....not a DA-20 or GA pilot. Far from anything they could even hope for from any FBO. The GA aircraft we fly is merely the resource we use to do so.

There always has to be a minimum standard. This ain't charity work after all.

Smokey

Agreed - I thought it was a great program, had a great time there and learned a ton.

[Guest]

...just sayin' regardless of how prior time or "passion" for flying will help someone do in UPT, if you can't make it past IFS you don't really have a shot to prove it.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

[Dukeorions]

Congrats!! Well done.

Now, one of the many comments I get from UPT students on base visits is how well they were prepared for the task at hand after having been through IFS. Do you agree?

Yes, much more complexity in aircraft, systems, academics, etc.....but they felt they understood how to adapt and learn in the UPT environment and without IFS felt it would have been an even a bigger bitch to tame. In my day, we showed up day one on the flight line feeling exactly how you did the day you hit the flight room at IFS.......imagine that.

Any comments on the attrition in your class during T-6 and the issues?

Thoughts?

Smokey

More than what you asked for, but I figured I'd throw in my experience. As far as preparedness, IFS sets the tone. In my opinion, as mentioned by many others, IFS has less information delivered at a much faster pace, simply because you don't have that much time to learn it all. Academics in Phase 1 of UPT are slow comparatively. You typically spend a week/week and a half on each block (systems, aero..) learning everything through CBTs, studying on your own, and powerpoints. At the end of each block are review sessions where hopefully there is a lot of footstomping for the test. Guys who did really well in academics read the books, had study sessions, asked a lot of questions, made flashcards etc...pretty standard. Don't brain dump systems knowledge in phase one because you will be expected to still be intimately familiar with it in phase 2. Things pick up quite a bit in phase 2 because you are not done with ac yet but now you've got flying on your plate. Learning groundops, EPs, and local procedures should be your number one priority when you enter your flightroom for the first time. Chairflying is helpful at first, but there comes a time when your learning will/must happen in the jet, regardless of how much you study and push 2d buttons on your cockpit poster. Phase two is where people begin to feel the pain. You must begin using your time carefully. 12 hours a day in the flight room goes by fast when you're double turning, but when you're not, you've got plenty of time to study until your head explodes. I think that if you use your time wisely enough during the day there is no need to study when you get home at 5-7pm. So you can hit the gym, cook a nice dinner, play call of duty etc..Get plenty of sleep and show up in the morning with a smile on your face and ready to go. Most guys wash out in phase 2 between contact and final contact. I'd say most do not wash out for academic reasons but because they simply could not fly well. It's not for everyone. When formation starts, charflying becomes very beneficial again; you and your wingman need to be on the same page. Showing up knowing the numbers, procedures, or anything else that can be read might sound like something an IP would say, but looking back, it makes your life way easier. Knowing this information opens up those brain bytes for learning how to manipulate the AC, not trying to remember shit in the jet that you should already know. ie, When your flying the recovery you won't have to pull out your IFG and look up what radial you're supposed to be on or what DME you were supposed to descend for your striaght in etc. Big picture overall tips for UPT:

-Stay motivated. It's only 1 year of your life that determines the rest of your career. Be able to tell yourself on assignment night that you could not have studied harder, flown better, or had a better attitude.

-Be organized. You get handed a lot of crap to learn. Get binders and label things so you know exactly where to look to find answers. When your lying there in bed the night before your Inst. checkride and you can't sleep because you don't rememeber the T in SNERT, you know right where to look.

-Be a genuine bro/team player/wingman. This is not a mystery to anyone. A lot of guys come to UPT having heard so much about being a "Bro" that it turns into brown nosing and sucking up. Do not suck anyones d*ck to make yourself look better. This is abundantly evident to IPs and you will hear about it. You still must help people out, take out the trash, make coffee and a good batch of jalepeno corn, just don't go overboard with it. Don't go bouncing around the flight room finishing people sentences and correcting conversations that you're not involved in. Let people know you are willing to help them if you are particularly good with something and let them come to you. Volunteer to DD once in awhile, throw an awesome party, bring your hot sister to town to visit. These are all very important for good "bromanship"

-Have a good attitude. It's easy to be all smiles when you're doing well, but when you hit a rough patch it's important to bounce back. I saw a lot of guys in my class have a bad ride turn into 5 because they lost confidence, second guessed themselves, etc. Roll with the punches and ask more questions. Find that buddy that offered to help you.

Any more questions PM me.

[matmacwc]

I was going to crap on the long post, but it is true. I was a phase 3 instructor and i agree with all of it. I have to say though, 1699 hours between the T-38 and F-16 and I don't know what SNERT or NMAILMAN stands for.

[Smokey]

The long post above was spot on! For those beginning the process, read and heed!

For the IFS naysayers, want to tell me why CNATRA was here for the last two days....... Guess why the Navy's "screening" program has been canx? It doesn't screen or train anyone to the standards of the next level. Whatever those might be in the Navy.

Navy basically has had to sh*t a lot of money to keep the existing program (FBO's) running from other funds until a replacement is in place. Came about recently, so the current system will be probably operational through FY 2013, then, guess what, a real IFS program has been directed to be in place.

Smokey

[DFRESH]

Any word on combining the Navy into the current USAF IFS?

[Swanee]

The long post above was spot on! For those beginning the process, read and heed!

For the IFS naysayers, want to tell me why CNATRA was here for the last two days....... Guess why the Navy's "screening" program has been canx? It doesn't screen or train anyone to the standards of the next level. Whatever those might be in the Navy.

Navy basically has had to sh*t a lot of money to keep the existing program (FBO's) running from other funds until a replacement is in place. Came about recently, so the current system will be probably operational through FY 2013, then, guess what, a real IFS program has been directed to be in place.

Smokey

The Navy/Marine IFS Program isn't worth much. It was originally designed to reduce DORs- yet 3 of the guys I went to IFS with (3 years ago) ended up DORing within the first few flights in Primary. Oops.

Word on the street is that the Marine Corps is done with sending SNA's through IFS. In fact- the Marine Corps is done with sending Marines to Vance for primary also. To be honest, there were many guys who had their first flight in a T-34 and did just fine.

Doubtful that big Navy would send SNA's through AF IFS- you guys do this flying business a little bit differently that we do. Would the Navy create a program based on the AF model of IFS? That's more likely. Hell, the last above/below stud in Kingsville is going to wing in a couple of weeks. After that it's all MPTS/MIF stuff for all of the VTs.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Swanee

[Guest]

- you guys do this flying business a little bit differently that we do.

Amen to that.

[Smokey]

The Navy/Marine IFS Program isn't worth much. It was originally designed to reduce DORs- yet 3 of the guys I went to IFS with (3 years ago) ended up DORing within the first few flights in Primary. Oops.

Word on the street is that the Marine Corps is done with sending SNA's through IFS. In fact- the Marine Corps is done with sending Marines to Vance for primary also. To be honest, there were many guys who had their first flight in a T-34 and did just fine.

Doubtful that big Navy would send SNA's through AF IFS- you guys do this flying business a little bit differently that we do. Would the Navy create a program based on the AF model of IFS? That's more likely. Hell, the last above/below stud in Kingsville is going to wing in a couple of weeks. After that it's all MPTS/MIF stuff for all of the VTs.

I only have background information on what is going on and can't really speak to what CNATRA's final decision will be. They'll have to do something other than what they were doing but to what degree/level they will go is unknown to me.

Smokey

[so.it.goes]

If anyone is interested, I'm going to be selling my copy of the Sporty's Complete "Learn to Fly" Course.

I used it to prep for about a month before I headed to IFS, and it was incredibly helpful. I only had about 10 hours going in to the program, and these DVD's and study guide came in huge for me as far as learning the basics. In fact, a lot of the info directly mirrored the academics of week one at IFS.

Here's the link if you want to research it:

https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/product/17125

I'm selling it with everything that came with it, including the online access information and FAA knowledge test prep. The DVD's went from the case to the computer, and back again... Pretty much pristine condition.

It has great reviews all over the place and retails for $249.

I'm probably going to be putting it in eBay tomorrow as well, so if you're interested, PM with a Best Offer. Hopefully it can help someone else out at IFS like it did me.

[kaleb283]

Does anyone know of anywhere in the DelMarVa area to get some flight time in a DA-20?

[eb287]

Does anyone know of anywhere in the DelMarVa area to get some flight time in a DA-20?

I highly recommend aviation adventures at KHEF/manassas. Fantastic instructors... PM me if youd like additional info

[JakeFSU]

Smokey,

It looks like sequestration will go through. Have you heard if IFS will be affected? From what I understand, the AF is trying to keep the UPT pipeline open.

Jake

[Archa3opt3ryx]

Smokey,

It looks like sequestration will go through. Have you heard if IFS will be affected? From what I understand, the AF is trying to keep the UPT pipeline open.

Jake

FWIW, the casual dudes here (EN) are still planning on going to IFS, unless they have their PPL.

[valor_287]

IFS, well it's the biggest bullsh*t program provided by our Air Force now. Honestly, they just want to try to seem relevant at this point. Due to sequestration and budget cuts, this program has become a government contract that knows it's failing. PPL guys get to float right on through, and the zero hour guys go to Pueblo to receive a "course designed for the zero hour student". That is crap, especiallly if you get the wrong flight (Bravo or Golf). If you are the "zero hour" guy, go get flight time now!!! Otherwise, plan a different path in the Air Force. The Doss staff isn't there to teach you (it's a screening process as stated in the title, except magnified now that the money is drying up), but they advertise themselves as a flight school. Most of the instructors are crusty, resentful, and just working for the next paycheck. That isn't the character of all, but the worst reflects the most in the way they treat the studs. Academics is a joke, they need to just stop instructing if they just plan on testing over the quizzes.Take my word for it, pay for the PPL and skip this BS to go on to what really matters- UPT!!!

[brabus]

If only I could figure out how to imbed a picture...an attachment will have to do.

[discus]

. Most of the instructors are crusty, resentful, and just working for the next paycheck. That isn't the character of all, but the worst reflects the most in the way they treat the studs. Academics is a joke, they need to just stop instructing if they just plan on testing over the quizzes.Take my word for it, pay for the PPL and skip this BS to go on to what really matters- UPT!!!

And this is different from UPT how?

[Hacker]

skip this BS to go on to what really matters- UPT!!!

Have you read any of this thread at all?

The whole point of IFS is to screen for adaptability to the USAF's training methodology and basic aptitude in an aircraft. All of that crap that you are bitching about in your rant is exactly the haze you are going to encounter at "what really matters". They run the program that way intentionally -- you will see all of that again at your UPT base.

Good luck with scoffing at the actual gate-keepers to a set of silver wings. Tell us how that works out for you.

[Fuzz]

IFS, well it's the biggest bullsh*t program provided by our Air Force now. Honestly, they just want to try to seem relevant at this point. Due to sequestration and budget cuts, this program has become a government contract that knows it's failing. PPL guys get to float right on through, and the zero hour guys go to Pueblo to receive a "course designed for the zero hour student". That is crap, especiallly if you get the wrong flight (Bravo or Golf). If you are the "zero hour" guy, go get flight time now!!! Otherwise, plan a different path in the Air Force. The Doss staff isn't there to teach you (it's a screening process as stated in the title, except magnified now that the money is drying up), but they advertise themselves as a flight school. Most of the instructors are crusty, resentful, and just working for the next paycheck. That isn't the character of all, but the worst reflects the most in the way they treat the studs. Academics is a joke, they need to just stop instructing if they just plan on testing over the quizzes.Take my word for it, pay for the PPL and skip this BS to go on to what really matters- UPT!!!

I'll take it you did not pass or barely passed and was consistently crushed by the IPs (probably for your attitude). It is designed for zero hour guys that have the skills to make it, we know cause we've all watched/been one of those guys, of all the guys I know that failed out only one I would say probably got screwed.

[Danny Noonin]

As a recent IFS graduate...

... and probably would have struggled or washed out in UPT as well.

A little mentoring for you...saying the first part above means you have no credibility to say the second part.

[BTLFlyer]

Could someone please tell me if you have a PPL... do you still have to go through IFS? I keep hearing conflicting information... this would be for the 18X pipeline. Thanks guys!

[flyinghigh]

If you have a PPL then you don't have to go through IFS. Budget cuts...

[eb287]

If you have a PPL then you don't have to go through IFS. Budget cuts...

Could someone please tell me if you have a PPL... do you still have to go through IFS? I keep hearing conflicting information... this would be for the 18X pipeline. Thanks guys!

here is the reference for that, from AETCI 36-2205v3, paragraph 1.1

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetci36-2205v3/aetci36-2205v3.pdf

"... Pilot, RPA pilot, and CSO candidates with a private pilot certificate are exempt from IFS."