Off-station refueling, including in-flight

[Guest Daddy Mac]

Gents,

I am not a flyer. I am a comm guy (that's "cyber operator" in today's Air Force...). Long story short, I am writing the AFI that addresses how you pay for gas away from your home station (e.g. AF 664s), turning in those docs when you return, and how the WRDCOs get the bills paid.

I've spent lots of time talking to WRDCOs since they are the focus. I've also talked to couple of pilots, but no boom operators. I'd like down low on how/what actually happens when you have to refuel away from your home station - both on the ground and in the air. I'd also like to know what happens to the 664s and 791s when the mission is complete.

The older Air Refueling thread thread "inspired" me, because the topic of tail numbers came up. Yes, the tanker needs your tail number when you get gas. Yes, it probably sucks trying to relay it, and yes, combat will always come first. Yes, we really do lose money each year becaue of crappy (absent?) accounting procedures for fuel. No, it's not as simple as "right pocket to left pocket," although I wish it were.

So - to start this off - how does the aircraft getting gas in-flight record how much he received? Or do you? Is that even possilble?

Daddy Mac

[FUSEPLUG]

The boom operator passes the offload to us upon completion of AR. That amount is recorded on the AF 664 along with the date, tanker tail number and home-station, and the fact that it was in-flight refueling. The 664 is usually in the back of our aircraft forms binder which is turned in to home-station maintenance upon return.

[Guest]

There is no precise measurement if that's really what you're looking for.

Since you are the expert it would be great if you could explain exactly why the tanker needs a tail number.

[Toro]

So - to start this off - how does the aircraft getting gas in-flight record how much he received? Or do you? Is that even possilble?

Ditto above on the tanker telling us how much we took, plus the fact that you should be fragged for a specific offload.

And please for the love of Pete, don't start the tail number crap again.

[OL Patch]

Who's Pete...is he related to the man upstairs...

[Guest Daddy Mac]

Only AMC and AFSOC mention 664s in their v3s. Neither ACC or AFGSC require its use, so I don't know if/how those ARs are recorded by the recipient.

Regarding the TNs: the short answer is that the tanker gets reimbursed for the fuel from the party who "buys" it. However, that is an oversimplification. if you really want me to explain why it matters, I have to explain the rather convoluted system for buying & selling fuel. It's a PITA - trust me. Suffice it to say that there are lots of pockets involved, to include other DOD pockets and foreign pockets

[matmacwc]

Sweet, non pilot writing a flying regulation. No offense man, I know you are doing what you are told, but you could screw all of us. Use the words "if able" and "suggested" as much as you can.

[skinny]

I am not a flyer. I am a comm guy (that's "cyber operator" in today's Air Force...). Long story short, I am writing the AFI that addresses how you pay for gas away from your home station (e.g. AF 664s), turning in those docs when you return, and how the WRDCOs get the bills paid.

Don't take this the wrong way but, how did you as a "cyber operator" get tagged to write an AFI regarding the billing for any type of aircraft refueling?

[Fudge]

I could see tail number usage being important in the event of a suspected fuel contamination issue (track what fuel went to what plane), but for "billing purposes" it doesn't make sense. If you need to know who to send the bill to, then just tell them the wing you are assigned to, that should suffice.

As for paying for the gas downrange, isn't it all AFCENT/GWOT money anyways?

[FlyingBull]

Sweet, non pilot writing a flying regulation. No offense man, I know you are doing what you are told, but you could screw all of us. Use the words "if able" and "suggested" as much as you can.

Give the guy a break. He is doing the best to get feed back from flyers on this issue. For that he deserves to be commended....yeah it seems odd that a non-rated dude is writing this AFI, but credit where credit is due.

[Guest]

Regarding the TNs: the short answer is that the tanker gets reimbursed for the fuel from the party who "buys" it. However, that is an oversimplification. if you really want me to explain why it matters, I have to explain the rather convoluted system for buying & selling fuel. It's a PITA - trust me. Suffice it to say that there are lots of pockets involved, to include other DOD pockets and foreign pockets

Not good enough. It sounds like a screwed up process.

You are not sending a bill to the DCC of a specific tail number so that argument is ultimately bullshit.

Guys give bullshit tail numbers all the time.

Sorry but you're writing the AFI and you're asking for help so you need to be able to understand and explain the process and be ready to consider improvements to the process you are documenting.

[skinny]

There have been many times in my experience when a wing has come back and said, we don't have that tail number assigned here so take your fuel bill and shove it up your ass. And they are well within their right to do so. THAT is why they need a tail number. So that the tankers OG/WG doesn't take the cost up the poop chute. DoDAAC's help, tail flashes help, but the tail number is the bottom line best way to ensure the money comes from the correct pot.

[Guest]

There have been many times in my experience when a wing has come back and said, we don't have that tail number assigned here so take your fuel bill and shove it up your ass. And they are well within their right to do so. THAT is why they need a tail number. So that the tankers OG/WG doesn't take the cost up the poop chute. DoDAAC's help, tail flashes help, but the tail number is the bottom line best way to ensure the money comes from the correct pot.

Lots of poop money talk. Gross.

Good to know the tanker OG/WG had poop related activity/play because I made up a tail number every fucking time I was asked.

[skinny]

Fair enough. But look at it this way; next time you're on fumes and need a SNAP/BRA to the nearest tanker, AWACS just makes some shit up. Cool? Didn't think so.

You're an expert and probably type-A WRT your job just like the vast majority of people in other USAF career fields are. If you don't settle for less than everyone else's best most accurate work possible, why should anyone else. If my job says I'm required to get a damn tail number, then I'm gonna do all I can to get that number. If that means looking at the receptacle in day VMC and hoping it's stenciled on there, asking the CO or AC to look out their windows, or worst case asking the rcvr to pass via boom interphone or other means, then you better believe I'm gonna do it. As petty as it may seem to you, it's still someone's requirement.

No one's asking you to fly with a reflective belt on, just give me six digits and don't make your own contact (Hogs/Bones). That's it.

Edit to add, where the fuck do you find these videos? Well played.

Edited December 17, 2011 by skinny

[ThreeHoler]

Making up a mail number is a dick move.

[Guest]

Fair enough. But look at it this way; next time you're on fumes and need a SNAP/BRA to the nearest tanker, AWACS just makes some shit up. Cool? Didn't think so.

You pass gas. That's it. Pass it to the guys that need it and lose the attitude. You have zero risk in this transaction.

...you better believe I'm gonna do it. As petty as it may seem to you, it's still someone's requirement.

Good for you. Good luck. I'll give you the pre-emptive six you're looking for 79-0069. My wingman is 79-6969.

...and don't make your own contact (Hogs/Bones). That's it.

You put the boom out there and let the guys who know how to fly get it w/in 6-9 inches. Again, your risk is zero so hold still, pass the gas and go heat up a pizza.

Edit to add, where the fuck do you find these videos? Well played.

I found a couple more for you...

https://video.answers...y-kids-77388446

[skinny]

You pass gas. That's it. Pass it to the guys that need it and lose the attitude. You have zero risk in this transaction.

You receive gas, pass your tail number to the guys that need it. Lose the attitude, you have zero risk in this transaction.

Good for you. Good luck. I'll give you the pre-emptive six you're looking for 79-0069. My wingman is 79-6969.

Touche Hog 69. No tail numbers are that awesome.

You put the boom out there and let the guys who know how to fly get it w/in 6-9 inches. Again, your risk is zero so hold still, pass the gas and go heat up a pizza.

If you want to make your own contact, perhaps you should have joined the navy.

I found a couple more for you...

Once again, well played sir.

[Champ Kind]

I can already tell I am going to heart this thread!

[RescueRandy]

If you want to make your own contact, perhaps you should have joined the navy.

Or fly Rescue!

P.S. We rarely pass tail #s... dunno why / why not.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Hella-Copters

[mjk5401]

Guys give bullshit tail numbers all the time.

Giving a bullshit tail# is beyond dick! Boom operators then have to spend 6.9 extra minutes tracking your F'ing tail # down after a 6.9 hr mission. And yes, they have to and will get the tail number. Sometimes they have to call the receiving units to find out what tails were airborne. There are ways to find out, but bottom line, you're wasting a lot of peoples time by getting your jollies off from giving false TNs. The Navy is the worse! I swear they don't know what their TNs are half the time.

So for the love of God, please give accurate info until the regs and ass pain changes... This will never happen because the paperless AF likes paper to much.

[Champ Kind]

Or fly Rescue!

P.S. We rarely pass tail #s... dunno why / why not.

Probably because the people giving you the gas couldn't give two shits.

[FUSEPLUG]

I'm glad to see that keying the mic and passing 6 digits is the biggest problem we face in today's Air Force.

Welp, back to updating my RRF for the next RIF coming down in '12.

[stract]

when the tanker remembers to ask, we will provide them our tails (HC/MC/KC-130). Not sure what form they document the HAAR on, but our FE just writes it in on the refueling log on the back of the 781H (or whichever 781 it is where MX signs the ER). With HAAR, there doesn't seem to be a way to really have a precise quantity. I've had the tanker set their system to cut off after 500 lbs, and it doesn't, or it does, when we show an onload of less than 500 lbs. So we typically write what we saw for onload, and that's about it. I'm sure many times the offload number noted by the tanker doesn't exactly match...

I once HAAR'd where all the fuel was venting straight out of the pod into the atmosphere next to our aircraft instead of flowing through the hose to our probe. Their offload definitely didn't match our onload on that one.

[JarheadBoom]

Gents,

I am not a flyer. I am a comm guy (that's "cyber operator" in today's Air Force...). Long story short, I am writing the AFI that addresses how you pay for gas away from your home station (e.g. AF 664s), turning in those docs when you return, and how the WRDCOs get the bills paid.

I've spent lots of time talking to WRDCOs since they are the focus. I've also talked to couple of pilots, but no boom operators. I'd like down low on how/what actually happens when you have to refuel away from your home station - both on the ground and in the air. I'd also like to know what happens to the 664s and 791s when the mission is complete.

The older Air Refueling thread thread "inspired" me, because the topic of tail numbers came up. Yes, the tanker needs your tail number when you get gas. Yes, it probably sucks trying to relay it, and yes, combat will always come first. Yes, we really do lose money each year becaue of crappy (absent?) accounting procedures for fuel. No, it's not as simple as "right pocket to left pocket," although I wish it were.

So - to start this off - how does the aircraft getting gas in-flight record how much he received? Or do you? Is that even possilble?

Daddy Mac

Re: 791s: The last time I turned in a paper 791 was quite a while back, but I just faxed it to our WRDCO. All other times, I use AMCART to account for offloads. Of course we've got a file basket in the office for the copy we print, so if the network goes tits-up somehow and the transaction never makes it through AMCART, we've got paper proof for the WRDCO when he emails the entire SQ management chain about some boom not having done his/her AMCART. There was actually a period of time where we'd fill out a manual 791, then staple the printable copy of the AMCART transaction to it, for each mission (i.e. two copies of the same info). Someone in my office with a couple functioning brain cells finally raised the bullshit flag on that and we stopped filling out the manual 791s.

Re: in-flight onloads: In the -10, that's pilot/FE shit. I know the FE logs the onload info on his FE's Worksheet (a form # I should know, but don't), and the pilots used to put it on the Tanker Activity Report (another form # I should know, but don't), but IIRC they don't do those anymore. Instead there's some other website for them to enter that info in. Honestly, I'm surprised that accounting for onloads hasn't been incorporated into AMCART and pawned off on the booms (oh shit, why did I just say that out loud???).

Re: ground refueling "on the road": Our crewchiefs put that info in the aircraft forms (I think it's one of the AFTO 781-series forms, but I'm not sure) along with the fuel receipt (DD form something-or-other... wow, this is becoming a trend item...), and that info is transcribed into I-don't-know-what-system/website once we get back to home station.

Since you're re-writing the reg, can you fix it so the transactions are accounted for by WG-to-WG (or at worst, SQ-to-SQ), instead of tail # -to- tail #? I've grown tired of having discussions with the WRDCO where he tries to tell me that the receiver tail # I put in AMCART either doesn't exist or wasn't flying that day, when I read the number right off the fucking aircraft (and confirmed it with the receiver pilot) during the mission in question... or worse, when he tried to tell me the tanker tail # I put into AMCART (yes, the tail # of the very aircraft I was flying on) didn't fly that day.

Edit re: quantities: In the -10, the FE has an offload qty gauge on his panel. The boom also has an offload qty gauge in the ARO. Rarely do the numbers match, and the split usually gets worse with bigger offloads. Personally, I go with the FE's number when I pass the offload qty to the receiver; I'm sure some other booms use the number from their gauge.

Edited December 17, 2011 by JarheadBoom

[Majestik Møøse]

Holy shit, here we go again about tail numbers. Like joe1234 said, I've never seen this much antagonizing in Afghanistan. Almost everyone passes the number with no problems, the Navy guys pass it when they check in 50nm out. If a Hog doesn't pass it because he's only on the boom for 2m and he's busy talking on the radio, the boom knows where to look. If the number isn't in the system, assign the gas to somebody else in the same Sq.

I haven't heard any 79000069 numbers yet, but that's probably because all of Rainman's disciples have retired by now.

But look at it this way; next time you're on fumes and need a SNAP/BRA to the nearest tanker, AWACS just makes some shit up. Cool? Didn't think so.

Sorry dude, that's just not equivalent. Besides, AWACS doesn't know where anybody is anyway. Ask the tanker what killbox he's in and fly there. If he doesn't know, he's wrong.