i.o.w.a Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Situation: Three Co-pilots co-sign a leese to rent a huge three bedroom home...no homo. Property manger finalizes the lease on Wednesday, "John" moves in all his stuff on Thursday and settles in before deploying Tuesday. Tuesday morning rolls around, Adam gets a call from the property manager saying, "You need to vacate the property, the home owner doesn't allow roommates." Silence ensues. A meeting with the property manager reveals that the female owner of the home, an officer in the Air Force herself (probably pilot), understands that it sucks you are deploying and can't move your stuff, but "I don't care, get out of my house by 1 Feb." -All three roommates signed the lease, as well as the property manager, the document is finalized. -John is currently wearing a reflective belt somewhere and not able to defend his property that is in the house. Questions for the crowd: 1) Should we:a)Take our deposit and clear out John's stuff for him?b) Make the property manager pay to pack up John's stuff and pay for the storage unit to store it?c)Lawyer up and get the damages from the property manager 2) About the Owner who knowingly evicted a deployed and fellow officer:a)Understand she probably had a bad experience and let it go?b)Find out who she is and ask her politely to reconsider?c) ..... I don't want to hate this chick, but she is making it really hard to think she isn't a douche. Thoughts?
Beaver Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 I wouldn't do shit. Put the legal responsibility on the owner. I don't know the law in your state but I guaranatee she can't evict you that fast (1 Feb), and your deployed bro has some protection under SCRA (stay of proceedings, etc.).
ol-IEWO Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Read the lease. What rights does it give the owner to break the lease? If none of you three have done anything to trigger her right to evict, she is in the wrong. Check with the JAG office for advice (if the JAG still does that).
Royal Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Read the lease. Huge 2 on that. I'm sure you have several times already, but go over the contract once more. Every jot and tittle. Once you know it forward and backwards, bring it to the property manager and kindly ask where it specifically states the "no roommate" clause. Put the onus back on the owner.
i.o.w.a Posted January 12, 2012 Author Posted January 12, 2012 There is no "No roommate Clause". The Lease is a contract between us and the manager, the agreement between the manager and the owner is where the clause is. Of course we never see that agreement. The property manager is clearly the one who is in the wrong for not knowing there was a clause, but the owner is the one making it suck. Bottom line is the Property Manager has made two promises to two groups and the promises are mutually exclusive, but the owner is still the owner. Burn the house down.....? Isn't there a saying about don't ###### with people who make your food, or the people who hold the keys to your $380K house? We don't know who 'her' is.
Beaver Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 There is no "No roommate Clause". The Lease is a contract between us and the manager, the agreement between the manager and the owner is where the clause is. Of course we never see that agreement. The property manager is clearly the one who is in the wrong for not knowing there was a clause, but the owner is the one making it suck. Bottom line is the Property Manager has made two promises to two groups and the promises are mutually exclusive, but the owner is still the owner. Isn't there a saying about don't ###### with people who make your food, or the people who hold the keys to your $380K house? We don't know who 'her' is. Google "CAD" and whatever county you are in. Or "property assessor". Many counties have a property search page where you can look up public records such as sq footage, yearly taxes, and who owns the house. Sometimes it has what the house sold for last which is nice to know when you are house hunting. And knowing is half the battle!
snoopyeast Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 A legit SQ/CC could solve this with a 5 minute phone call to the officer home owner.
jcj Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) There is no "No roommate Clause". The Lease is a contract between us and the manager, the agreement between the manager and the owner is where the clause is. Of course we never see that agreement. The property manager is clearly the one who is in the wrong for not knowing there was a clause, but the owner is the one making it suck. Bottom line is the Property Manager has made two promises to two groups and the promises are mutually exclusive, but the owner is still the owner. Isn't there a saying about don't ###### with people who make your food, or the people who hold the keys to your $380K house? We don't know who 'her' is. As much as I hate to encourage lawyers, lawyer up. Don't do shit, if the property manager pushes ask him to just let you know in writing that he wants you to move and then lawyer up. If the owner has given power of attorney to the property manager, then it's likely that you have a valid lease that can't be broken except under the terms of the lease. In that case the owner's recourse is to sue the property manager for breach of their contract. If it turns out the property owner's agreement with the owner isn't any good he's got bigger problems. Either way (and assuming there isn't something else besides whats in the post) sucks to be him. Don't do anything stupid, cute or anything that could come even close to you violating your obligations under the lease until this plays out. Edited January 12, 2012 by jcj
Toro Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 The Lease is a contract between us and the manager, the agreement between the manager and the owner is where the clause is. That's the fault of the property manager. You signed a legal and binding contract which does not state anything about roommates. I would second the lawyer, and your CC, but before you get one, ask the property manager to pass along to the owner that you're also going to get your chain of command involved in the situation. Realize that the base JAG can spell out the law for you, but they cannot represent you and they can give you very limited legal advise. In the meantime, look up the law (or call the local court) and ask what the specfic rules are on eviction. I had to do this with some unruly tenants a couple years back. Bottom line is that there is a specific timeline that has to be followed, and if she wants to do it correctly, she has to get the law involved (she can't necessarily just tell you to be out next week). Until you are proven in the wrong, or you are served with a notice of eviction by a law officer, don't go anywhere. But you may want to start looking for a new place just to be safe....
Fud Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Go to the base legal office and talk to one of the Assistant Staff Judge Advocates (ASJA) and you will not only get free advice, but they deal with landlord/tenant disputes on a regular basis. I agree with lawyering up on this one, as anything you say unprofessional could be used against you, especially if this female is a superior officer. I know you are pissed off about this, but I would let the lawyer speak for you, as you should in any situation. Agreed that a good squadron commander will handle this in a five minute telephone call, but these days, that probably won't happen for multiple reasons. a. your sq/cc will probably tell you to contact base legal anyway. b. they might have better things to do unfortunately I would do the following if I were you. a. Read the lease objectively and see if there is a way she can legally do this. My guess is no. b. Look into SCRA and see if she is in violation. c. Do not threaten legal action yet, but mention to the property manager that this person might be in violation of SCRA. Generously provide said property manager a copy of SCRA or the website where it resides. d. Seek legal action from JA on the issue. Show them the signed/notarized lease. Ask them if they are there to represent you and talk to the property manager/owner or just to give advice. My guess is on the latter. e. If the situation does not work itself out, tell the property manager/owner that you have no other choice and have "sought counsel and it seems they are in violation of SCRA". By doing these things, you will have covered all your bases, and my bet is the property manager has dealt with SCRA issues before. They will probably back down if they are smart. I have dealt with a few cell phone companies and got out of two contracts just by mentioning SCRA and that the respective companies' service was not covered in my area. Best of luck and I hope this advice helps.
Guest Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Can we see the lease? There a tenant's advocate groups in every state. Google and dial. I agree w/Beaver, you need to find out who the owner is. You don't need to talk to her, you just need to know who she is. The less you talk the better. The best thing you can do is simply say you have 1) a legal lease in place and 2) the protection of the SCRA which prohibits the landlords eviction action. You have the keys, the lease, a copy of the SCRA, time basis the laws that describe the timeline for eviction. Get informed. Be right. Talk as little as possible. Agree to nothing other than the facts at hand.
HERK_Nav Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Can we see the lease? There a tenant's advocate groups in every state. Google and dial. I agree w/Beaver, you need to find out who the owner is. You don't need to talk to her, you just need to know who she is. The less you talk the better. The best thing you can do is simply say you have 1) a legal lease in place and 2) the protection of the SCRA which prohibits the landlords eviction action. You have the keys, the lease, a copy of the SCRA, time basis the laws that describe the timeline for eviction. Get informed. Be right. Talk as little as possible. Agree to nothing other than the facts at hand. He's right. We've been through this ourselves with a lease and took all the paperwork to the JAG. The JAG looked at it and said under SCRA we were covered. Landlord backed down after lawyer was involved. Would also get the SQ/CC in the loop just to make sure you have his/her support if needed (like a phone call to the owners CC). Best of luck.
ClearedHot Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Great advice from all and as a dude with numerous rental properties I can tell you having possession of the property is a huge plus to your situation. At this point they can;t simply tell you to leave, you have not violated a legal lease (as long as there is not a roommate clause)...be aware if there is a section on subletting they may try to hang their hat on that line, but if all three roommates signed, it is obvious the property manager knew. SCRAis a great shield, but you should also do some research into the laws of that state, each is different and some are very friendly towards tenants...like South Carolina, it took me three months to evict a Bank Robber...yes a fucking Bank Robber who wasn't paying the rent and led the police on a high speed chase that culminated at the front gate of the Air Force Base.
Loach Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 I worked (in a previous life) in landlord-tennant court in NJ. The laws in NJ favor the tenant (in some states they favor the property owners). I would definitely talk to an attorney -- there may be someone on base (the legal office) who can help you with this for free. A lot of the Landlord Tennant litigants were self represented (pro se) as it's not complicated law and the expense of an attorney is usually a lot compared to the amounts of money involved (in NJ landlord tenant court solely dealt with possession of the property, and nothing financial i.e. getting a deposit back required filing a claim in small claims/Special Civil). There are also a lot of intricasies (again at least in NJ) that have to be followed to legally evict a person. A lot of landlords didn't do this correctly resulting in illegal lockouts, and other things that actually got them (the landlords) in trouble. I'd be willing to spend a little money talking to an attorney just to spite the landlord. There are 3 of you after all -- it might cost each of you a couple of hundred dollars, but it will cost her more, not to mention the aggravation it will cause her.
M2 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Sorry, but I don't see getting anyone's sqn/cc involved, this is not a UCMJ issue and the JAGs can sort it out. If not, then it goes to civil court or some other arbitrator. I think SCRA has got ya covered, but definitely talk with the folks at the legal office. It's what they're there for! Cheers! M2
ClearedHot Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Sorry, but I don't see getting anyone's sqn/cc involved, this is not a UCMJ issue and the JAGs can sort it out. If not, then it goes to civil court or some other arbitrator. I think SCRA has got ya covered, but definitely talk with the folks at the legal office. It's what they're there for! Cheers! M2 Sorry, but I disagree. Letting your SQ/CC know there is a potential issue is a good idea and common courtesy especially given the owner is another military member. From personal experience as a SQ/CC, when something goes wrong the story is almost always distorted by the other side and giving your boss the details may help preempt confusion. I won't go into details but I had several situations where the Wing/CC called in the middle of the night and I was able to defuse any blow-back on the military member because he came to me and let me know what was going on ahead of time (someone's crazy ex-wife doing stupid shit). Also, local communities and property managers know the base will go after a military member who is not paying rent or for some other screwing around with something in a lease. If the property manager calls the base and says "these guys are occupying a house without a valid lease"...there is likely to be a day or two confusion. Talk to your boss and get word to the SQ/CC.
M2 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Sorry, but I disagree. Letting your SQ/CC know there is a potential issue is a good idea and common courtesy especially given the owner is another military member. From personal experience as a SQ/CC, when something goes wrong the story is almost always distorted by the other side and giving your boss the details may help preempt confusion. I won't go into details but I had several situations where the Wing/CC called in the middle of the night and I was able to defuse any blow-back on the military member because he came to me and let me know what was going on ahead of time (someone's crazy ex-wife doing stupid shit). Also, local communities and property managers know the base will go after a military member who is not paying rent or for some other screwing around with something in a lease. If the property manager calls the base and says "these guys are occupying a house without a valid lease"...there is likely to be a day or two confusion. Talk to your boss and get word to the SQ/CC. Fair enough, but I think it can/should be resolved by the JAG before it need to go any higher. But given how such trivial shit commonly gets completely blown out of hand, I understand how it would be a good idea...
Guest Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Fair enough, but I think it can/should be resolved by the JAG before it need to go any higher. But given how such trivial shit commonly gets completely blown out of hand, I understand how it would be a good idea... 2 This isn't a crazy ex-wife. That shit is nuclear, especially if she's knows the system and plans on calling the base hotline or the FW/CCs office. It also isn't a child abuse or sexual assault. Flt/CC or FS/DO would be the highest I would take this for now...which is what I would say as the boss, too. No one is looking for any action from a commander, there is unlikely anything that will come in from the bozoshpere direct to the FW/CC and keeping it low officially informs the chain who can manage the communication and the facts before it gets any higher. Quite frankly, the FS/DO should be able to manage this quite easily if there's a call off base required. The first rule of combat is that the first report is always wrong and the details as these guys know them are clearly ambiguous. iowa's asking questions (or we're asking him questions) he would need the answers to before any action can be taken. Save the A prefix bullet until there's enough info to act on and you can clearly sort into the group.
i.o.w.a Posted January 13, 2012 Author Posted January 13, 2012 Well thanks to Beaver and the interwebs I now have the name of the owner. Crazy what you can find out with google. I'm going to talk to my commander and see what his opinion is on the matter and I'll keep you posted. I appreciate all the help. I'd also like to hear from anyone who has a rationale on what would motivate a decision like this. We're rationale dudes and if they have a reason to not want us in their house then we'd probably leave. And while I'd like to study up on some contract law and Arkansas property rights, the -1 and 3-3 are still all the reading I need right now.
jcj Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Well thanks to Beaver and the interwebs I now have the name of the owner. Crazy what you can find out with google. I'm going to talk to my commander and see what his opinion is on the matter and I'll keep you posted. I appreciate all the help. I'd also like to hear from anyone who has a rationale on what would motivate a decision like this. We're rationale dudes and if they have a reason to not want us in their house then we'd probably leave. And while I'd like to study up on some contract law and Arkansas property rights, the -1 and 3-3 are still all the reading I need right now. Just a guess - the owner has had bad experiences with roommates and probably doesn't want to rent to roommates any more. The agreement between the owner and the property manager may have a "no roommates" instruction - or maybe the owner told the property manager "no roommates" separately - but for you, it doesn't matter. If the owner legally authorized the property manager to rent it on her behalf (even with restrictions) and the property manager screwed that up, it sucks to be him. Assuming the property owner is authorized to rent the place, the paperwork is good and you are not in violation of any terms of your agreement with the property manager, its not your problem. If it has to go to litigation, all that stuff will get dug out at an excruciatingly slow pace by $200.00/hr lawyers. But if there's no controversy that hasn't been mentioned here, no one will want to let it go that far. My guess is that if you have a valid lease, no reason to be in violation of terms of your lease and SCRA, they'll fold like a cheap suit if they put up a fight at all. It is very much in your best interest to be an absolute model tenant until this is done with. Please keep us updated. Edited January 13, 2012 by jcj
Fudge Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I pretty much agree with everything that's been said, and for now I do believe the tenants are in the right (assuming the lease between them and the property manager does not forbid roommates). But, I will play devil's advocate. Let's say the owner did have a "no roommate" clause in the contract with the property manager. Would that make the contract between the tenants and the property owner null and void? And because of it being null and void, does that mean they are not legal tenants and therefore not subject to eviction rules? (as in, they could be kicked out immediately vs. 30 days)
guineapigfury Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Every SQ/CC is different, but they are all alike in these 2 ways: 1. They would rather hear the bad news from you, sooner rather than later. 2. They can ruin your shit. Don't be a dumbass, give your chain of command a heads-up. Telling your flight CC should be sufficient, they will relay the news. I've been on both sides of it. Getting chewed out because I waited until Monday to report a Saturday afternoon speeding ticket and being off the hook because I let the boss know what was about to happen before it happened.
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