Marines Urinating on Dead Taliban

[Murph]

So you're saying now that this happened the enemy 200 meters out will now suddenly have the balls to do something they didn't have the motivation to do on their own?

There's countless examples of retaliatory protests turned violent or outright attacks after PR disasters. The classic sequence of events is: Assault force takes contact, a couple of 105mm's take care of threat, Taliban claim CIVCAS, weak-minded populace believes Taliban, then protests at local VSP, the ODA there takes fire from TB using protestors as human shields or diversion.

And its not just limited to CIVCAS. You think Abu Ghraib wasn't used as a recruiting tool?

The Marines fucked up but I don't judge them.

What I think you're driving at is, we haven't gone through what these four guys went through? And you're right, I don't have it as bad as the young marine out on patrol. Im also not debating how war could drive someone to commit this act. However, someone's shitty situation doesn't make them exempt from the tactical directives, ROEs, LOAC, or Geneva conventions.

[tac airlifter]

Another lesson that bears repeating: don't take pictures. Even if you aren't pissing on EKIA (which even Marines in combat should know is unacceptable to their leadership), there's things we've all done that we'd rather not need to explain.

[Guest]

There's countless examples of retaliatory protests turned violent or outright attacks after PR disasters. The classic sequence of events is: Assault force takes contact, a couple of 105mm's take care of threat, Taliban claim CIVCAS, weak-minded populace believes Taliban, then protests at local VSP, the ODA there takes fire from TB using protestors as human shields or diversion.

Noted.

What we're missing here is that there is no way around this.

The enemy can claim whatever they want. They have no burden of proof whatsoever. That's the reality.

Pissing on a couple dead bodies is not the cause of the underlying problem. If not this, then something else....like a legitimate strike on valid targets with zero fratricide.

You mentioned COIN. That shit is over. We need to kill what we can and leave. That's the new strategy unless a Republican hawk is elected and then we're in for whatever has the biggest payoff for the defense contractors. Guess what that is...exactly the opposite of what you said you wanted.

And its not just limited to CIVCAS. You think Abu Ghraib wasn't used as a recruiting tool?

It is not limited to anything.

This is also not Abu Ghraib.

Everything is a recruiting tool, for terrorists outside Afghanistan.

Inside Afghanistan is a different story.

Many Afghans hate the Taliban but even some of them join for survival. This event is not going to turn someone who was anti-Taliban into a Taliban supporter. In fact, this won't even turn a cranium in Afghanistan. You know how they treat each other when we are not even w/in 100nm of them, right?

The Taliban do not use this kind of thing as their primary recruiting tool.

The only way to remove their ability to recruit is to develop an economic system that makes joining a terrorist group/gang/the Taliban a bad idea and makes running a terrorist group impossible because the civilian population has an incentive to police it.

However, someone's shitty situation doesn't make them exempt from the tactical directives, ROEs, LOAC, or Geneva conventions.

No argument but we don't need to lose perspective or interpose hyperbole.

[tac airlifter]

You mentioned COIN. That shit is over. We need to kill what we can and leave.

Tangent to all the cock talk, but bout time someone spoke the truth. COIN is impossible for our nation. All this talk about deploying forever to build schools... not only is a sustained 80 year strategy impossible for a democracy, but there's no proof it even works. Would I stop fighting if someone invaded our country & tried to force a new way of life just because they brought candy for my kids? Would I sell out my cause because the enemy played soccer with my cousin? This enemy will stop fighting the same way I'll stop fighting- when we're dead.

The reality is that we're leaving OEF within the next 18-24 months. Gone. Just like Iraq. So let's do the only thing that might be worthwhile in the short time left: kill as many of these cavemen as possible.

[Lawman]

So you're saying stooping to the Taliban's level is OK now. Got it.

Ill call it stooping to their level when we drag combatants that surrendered out into the open, behead them... burn their bodies... drag them through a ######ing street... and then hang them from the walls of a FOB.

Nothing the media does that sells papers over here cant be used by the Taliban as a recruiting tool. We live in the age of digital editing and the internet. Mearly throwing captions into a video of us doing a perfectly legal strike on a bunch of combatants with a little holy mumbling to Allah song going on is a recruiting tool.

These people make videos of them blowing up a minor IED... waiting for medics and additional personel to come on scene to pull their burning buddies out of the wreckage and then set off another IED. These ######ers mutilate, rape, torture, and desicate the bodies of not only ours but of civilians on the battlefield meanwhile they drag piles of bodies together sans weapons and claim war crimes and illegal air strikes.

The War will end and history will remember whatever the ###### it wants dependent on which country your in. Lets kill bad guys (ie anybody that points a ######ing weapon at anyone wearing an ISAF patch) and stop worrying about anything beyond that.

[Prosuper]

[BolterKing]

So you're saying now that this happened the enemy 200 meters out will now suddenly have the balls to do something they didn't have the motivation to do on their own?

I didn't know there was a "front line" is over there but if you are 200 yards from it you are definitely in range of even a shitty shot. Your were at risk before this happened. 200 meters is ######ing close. I'm hoping the level of vigilance among your men was high enough before this happened that this event would not cause you to have to change a thing.

I honestly don't think the Taliban give a piss about this. This is nothing to them and it is nothing compared to many things that have happened over there in the past 10 years that has never made the internet.

If this matters at all I think it is the impression it makes on everyone outside the AOR, friendly/enemy/neutral, that matters most.

The Marines ######ed up but I don't judge them. They weren't killing innocent civilians or raping kids in a village (which is something the Taliban do every ######ing day to their own people).

War is ugly. Killing is ugly. What we are doing over there is ugly as hell. No amount of "professionalism" makes it pretty.

Let's kill the the folks who need to be dead and get the ###### out of there.

Allow me to rephrase. My desk is 200 meters away, which is where I sit at the moment. My coin team and the other 200+ individuals that work for me just became bigger targets, and their jobs just got that much harder and more dangerous.

If you want to condone war crimes, maybe you should reevaluate the oath you took. I've flown my share of OEF CAS missions but down here in the dirt shit like this becomes a much bigger deal. This isn't like the 15E's that bombed a tanker in Konduz on accident... what these guys did was blatant. Putting a GBU-38 into the wrong building, strafing on a bad target ID, those are all mistakes. This is totally different.

I don't care whether you think COIN is stupid/worthless or not, the bottom line is you have comrades that are executing it because they were told to, and giving it their very best. These Marines just undid the work of thousands, and put others in more peril than they already are.

Also, if you don't think anyone is already using this as propaganda then maybe you could come down and explain it to the ANA that want nothing more than to talk about it. "How could they do this?" "Why would they do this?" "What is being done?" There are several hundred of them here, and if one decides that the behavior of these Marines is enough to change his mind about what side he's on, it could be a very bad day for US service memebers. It's happened before.

Edited January 15, 2012 by BolterKing

[Guest CAVEMAN]

'em. I will piss and shit over their collective faces. My patrol might get hit the next time we go out but that is what we signed up for. We never signed a truce with the Taliban, so I can't expect the intensity to increase or be decreased for any certain reason.

Bottom line, War is ugly business. The American government is looking for a favorable end-game while wasting lives and money. There is no working strategy in Afghanistan. It is a shit-hole and a waste of American resources. The so called progress we have achieved will not be identifiable 6 months after we leave. This so called barbaric act will be forgotten in no time.

Stop the nonsense. There is no strategy in Afghanistan.

[SocialD]

There are several hundred of them here, and if one decides that the behavior of these Marines is enough to change his mind about what side he's on, it could be a very bad day for US service memebers. It's happened before.

Changing sides is a national past time for the Afghans...it doesn't take something like this to have some change their minds!

Edited January 15, 2012 by SocialD

[The Texan]

We're not the Peace Corps. We exist to break shit and kill people. Had we stuck to that principle we would've been out of there in 10 days vs. 10 years and then we wouldn't be worrying about people pissing on dead bodies, EPOW scandals, reflective belt-less individuals, and how sweaty I am when I enter the DFAC. And I will bet you the strikes that have taken out all the top players would've still happened without 300K+ on the ground winning hearts and minds.

If you can find any place in recorded history where a form of dictatorship existed before 1948 in the Middle East, enlighten me. Truth is democracy is just like everything else in the world... it's not for everybody. Let folks handle their own business. If there is a national security concern, snuff that shit out quick and go back home. If people want a revolution and there's advantages, throw them a bone and bounce. Perfect examples: Libya 2011 and French aid in the US Revolution.

[The Texan]

couple of months ago. Vote for me.

Edit:

And I will bet you the strikes that have taken out all the top players would've still happened without 300K+ on the ground winning hearts and minds.

Fresh off the presses... we got another one of those bastards. With an airstrike. In Pakistan. Again.

Edited January 15, 2012 by DocHolliday7283

[M2]

'Read by Nigel Planer?!?'

Ya mean Neil from The Young Ones?!?

[Mark1]

###### 'em. I will piss and shit over their collective faces.

Seems to sum up the general opinion of the masses here.

Not sure what has apparently changed in the last few years, but I'll expect to hear plenty of "well, I guess we deserved that...it's only fairplay in war" concessions, rather than the outrage of the last occurance, when two Americans are killed, mutilated, burned, and strung up off a bridge, for example. Because of course, it's normal to dehumanize the enemy, and they're just savages anyway. And given that we are clearly the enlightened half of this conflict, we're smart enough to view things objectively and know that pissing on the enemy is no different than Fallujah, and therefore we should keep our mouths shut and not complain when we experience the same that we apparently condone.

######ing sad.

[Guest]

Allow me to rephrase. My desk is 200 meters away, which is where I sit at the moment.

Roger. You're downrange in the shit. I honor that.

If you want to condone war crimes, maybe you should reevaluate the oath you took.

Is that right? Way to go over the top and out of context with the unfounded accusation with a personal honor attack chaser.

I've flown my share of OEF CAS missions but down here in the dirt shit like this becomes a much bigger deal.

And I wouldn't know about that?

I don't care whether you think COIN is stupid/worthless or not,

Good to know. That way I don't have to give my opinion. I'll just stick with my original statement about it being over.

These Marines just undid the work of thousands, and put others in more peril than they already are.

Undid the work of thousands? Please.

Thanks for being over there. I hope I'm more right than you are, for the good of you and your 200 men. Come home safe.

[Murph]

Good to know. That way I don't have to give my opinion. I'll just stick with my original statement about it being over.

Try telling that to the MSOTs, ODAs and ETTs at the village stability platforms. Or better yet, try telling that to CJSOTF-A or CFSOCC-A. Hell, even the national mission force is now operating within the context of COIN in Afghanistan.

You are right, though, we will pick up a CT mindset in the near future.

This is somewhat tangential to the body desecration but it speaks to where some of these opinions come from. The CAF could stand to lean more about asymmetric warfare. And so long as there are MPCs in the WSAUD that don't even discuss the GFC scheme of maneuver or the JFLCCs priorities, we'll continue on that road. Whether that's right or wrong has been debated for years and this thread probably isn't the place for it, anyways.

My point is, we're still engaged in COIN and the CAF's knowledge of COIN is lacking, which explains why many think what happened is "ugly war".

Edited January 16, 2012 by Murph

[Guest]

You are right, though, we will pick up a CT mindset in the near future.

It has already happened. The COIN unwind will take a while, that's all.

And so long as there are MPCs in the WCL that don't even discuss the GFC scheme of maneuver or the JFLCCs priorities, we'll continue on that road.

Depends on the division. Failure to do that is the standard lip service to CAS/SOF support.

My point is, we're still engaged in COIN and the CAF's knowledge of COIN is lacking, which explains why many think what happened is "ugly war".

Not sure why the CAF as a whole needs to understand COIN just because we tried it and are 1-1 (arguably 0-1-1). COIN is a failed approach in Afghanistan and only appropriate elsewhere in specific and rare circumstances. The US is far better off avoiding combat operations where COIN is required.

[Homestar]

I'm predicting a urination specific page added to the LOAC CBT on ADLS.

[Guest]

I'm predicting a urination specific page added to the LOAC CBT on ADLS.

right after the two girls one cup page.

[Wandering Dog]

I'm predicting a urination specific page added to the LOAC CBT on ADLS.

LMAO. I think this is more about the American public being so isolated and self involved that when confronted with actual images of their war they don't know how to handle it.

[discus]

I'm just picturing another CBT. Perhaps a "How to relieve yourself properly" CBT? Should rank right up there with the "Freedom of Religion" CBT that teaches us all about a basic constitutinal right we learned in first grade.

[Butters]

I'm just picturing another CBT. Perhaps a "How to relieve yourself properly" CBT? Should rank right up there with the "Freedom of Religion" CBT that teaches us all about a basic constitutinal right we learned in first grade.

R Kelly can do the intro to the CBT.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/5sVUXpOdbik

Edited January 16, 2012 by Butters

[Shortbus]

I'm predicting a urination specific page added to the LOAC CBT on ADLS.

Just tell them it's raining.

[BolterKing]

Seems to sum up the general opinion of the masses here.

Not sure what has apparently changed in the last few years, but I'll expect to hear plenty of "well, I guess we deserved that...it's only fairplay in war" concessions, rather than the outrage of the last occurance, when two Americans are killed, mutilated, burned, and strung up off a bridge, for example. Because of course, it's normal to dehumanize the enemy, and they're just savages anyway. And given that we are clearly the enlightened half of this conflict, we're smart enough to view things objectively and know that pissing on the enemy is no different than Fallujah, and therefore we should keep our mouths shut and not complain when we experience the same that we apparently condone.

######ing sad.

Shack.

And the Ron Paul comment was pretty funny too.

RP 2012!

Not sure why the CAF as a whole needs to understand COIN just because we tried it and are 1-1 (arguably 0-1-1). COIN is a failed approach in Afghanistan and only appropriate elsewhere in specific and rare circumstances. The US is far better off avoiding combat operations where COIN is required.

You may very well be right. I've heard the situation in Afghanistan compared with putting your first in a bucket of water, and hoping water doesn't rush in to fill the void when you remove your hand.

However that doesn't give anyone the right to userp the efforts of their brothers and sisters down range. Anyone that is executing counter to their efforts can walk. The anti-COIN crowd may very well be right (I'm not that big of a fan either) but as long as my guys are going down range to execute as ordered, we will. The actions of a few, can have huge ramifications for many.

Edited January 16, 2012 by BolterKing

[The Texan]

I've heard the situation in Afghanistan compared with putting your first in a bucket of water, and hoping water doesn't rush in to fill the void when you remove your hand.

By water you mean Iran.

The anti-COIN crowd may very well be right (I'm not that big of a fan either) but as long as my guys are going down range to execute as ordered, we will.

Don't worry. Although my friends and I don't 100% agree with the overall strategy, we still deploy down range and execute as ordered.

Edited January 16, 2012 by DocHolliday7283

[Guest]

The anti-COIN crowd may very well be right (I'm not that big of a fan either) but as long as my guys are going down range to execute as ordered, we will.

Of course you will.

The actions of a few, can have huge ramifications for many.

But it shouldn't change a thing wrt what "your guys" do to accomplish their mission.

If they were not prepared to face the threat before this happened there has been a faliure of leadership which needs to be corrected immediately.

And no need to exaggerate the threat as a result of a couple Marines pissing on the enemy. As a leader you need to keep this event in proper perspective in order to do the right thing and keep people from catching the cancer of fear.