haitham Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 how does communting work in the guard/reserve units, for those that live a long distance away? all the units I'm applying to are a good 1000 miles plus from home. im talking about if you have to pay for it out of pocket, or if you are able to either get reimbursed/grab a trasport floight out of a nearby base.
Loach Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I can't answer this completely, but I know there is some kind of an AFRC program that will pay the expenses incurred in traveling to UTA's. However, the latest email I got about this says that it's restricted to certain jobs (AFSC's) and there's not much money for the program this year, so there's no guarantee that people will get paid. I know that isn't much of an answer, but it's a start. I also know that in all of my ARC units (over the last 20 years), there've been a lot of guys who traveled great distances to come in for UTA/IDT etc. Almost all of the people I knew who did this though, were commercial airline pilots, so they were able to do the travel using their airline connections (jump seat and other ways, that I'm not too familiar with). They seemed to have no problems doing so. In my case, I lived a little over a hundred miles from a previous base. I got nothing for coming in (unless on some kind of active duty, when you get mileage). I did get to stay in a hotel though, on Saturday night. Less than 100 miles commuting distance and no lodging was authorized for the UTA.
Guest Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 all the units I'm applying to are a good 1000 miles plus from home. Why so far? What is your job? im talking about if you have to pay for it out of pocket, or if you are able to either get reimbursed/grab a trasport floight out of a nearby base. Dont evn wurry about glettig two yur unit and u wnot have tweo pay for nuthing eether bcause peeple typically grab trasport floights out of near buy bazes, no problaem.
haitham Posted January 17, 2012 Author Posted January 17, 2012 Why so far? What is your job? Im applying to pilot slots, mostly fighter units, and all the open ones are in the northern part of the states, and I live in Orlando, FL.
HeyWatchThis Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Im applying to pilot slots, mostly fighter units, and all the open ones are in the northern part of the states, and I live in Orlando, FL. Fighter dudes I'm sure will chime in but I think most fighter squadrons require you to live pretty close to base. All the app packages I saw had a statement in there saying if you were offered a position you were willing to move to within XX (notice that does not have 4 X's) miles of the base.....
RogAir Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Fighter dudes I'm sure will chime in but I think most fighter squadrons require you to live pretty close to base. All the app packages I saw had a statement in there saying if you were offered a position you were willing to move to within XX (notice that does not have 4 X's) miles of the base..... Is that legal? As a condition of employment? 1
Guest Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Is that legal? As a condition of employment? Legal or not, it's common as hell. There's no way a guy can get through his seasoning in a fighter unit if he lives 1000 miles away. Gotta come into work every day. And after his seasoning the unit should be trying to get him/her whatever days they can to keep him in the unit everyday for at least two years. Anything short of that and he/she will never be worth a shit. He/she will suck. Forever. The ARC wasn't designed to take guys off the street and make fighter pilots out of them. Pilot training plus a couple months in the unit and then YOYO "here's a few sorties a months, I'm sure you'll do just fine" doesn't make sense and it doesn't work. Besides, what are you going to do, sue the unit if they don't select you to go to pilot training and turn you into a fighter pilot?
haitham Posted January 18, 2012 Author Posted January 18, 2012 Legal or not, it's common as hell. There's no way a guy can get through his seasoning in a fighter unit if he lives 1000 miles away. Gotta come into work every day. And after his seasoning the unit should be trying to get him/her whatever days they can to keep him in the unit everyday for at least two years. Anything short of that and he/she will never be worth a shit. He/she will suck. Forever. The ARC wasn't designed to take guys off the street and make fighter pilots out of them. Pilot training plus a couple months in the unit and then YOYO "here's a few sorties a months, I'm sure you'll do just fine" doesn't make sense and it doesn't work. Besides, what are you going to do, sue the unit if they don't select you to go to pilot training and turn you into a fighter pilot? well, it is legal. private companies and government agencies have the right to limit the distance their employees commute, especially when there is a certain alert requirement. I agree with that. I'm thinking after HST/seasoning and all the full time stuff is done, and ur only flying a few days a month, how does it work then. now, am I confused when i think that after HST a fighter pilot will revert to traditional status? every app package says that in CAPS, so that means I have to work a full time job outside of ANG unless a i get full time employment from the unit. which means for the units that don't require a max distance, that might be orlando florida or somewhere else. honestly, I'm probably going to move up north anyway, I'm not a fan of florida and its depressing job market and depressing people :) the question actually came about because a friend of mine is also applying to the ANG, but in the health administration area, he's a PhD candidate in that area. their commitment is truly part-time, so commuting would be his way, as it wouldn't be worth it to move for a weekend a month.
Guest pilotapplicant Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) I am a new guard fighter guy that is about to run out of season days so I can shed some light on this topic. In the recent past my unit had a rule that you were required to live within 55 miles. That was recently abolished and a couple of guys (senior Lt Col's and airline pilots) have moved out of the local area. With their flying and alert requirements plus drill they are required to be at the unit about 10 days per month. To make this mesh with the flying schedule this amounts to about two or three trips to town per month. Our unit also has a policy that no compensation for travel will be paid to pilots who choose to live outside the local area (i.e. the unit has chosen not to make money available for this purpose even though regulation would allow them to do so). As a junior drill status guardsman you would be expected to be at the unit 15 plus days per month. In my limited experience your leadership has the general expectation that you should want to be there all the time and be begging for orders or pay days and to even work for free if they can't pay you. I have a civilian job that I would like to return to but the culture of expecting young guys to be almost 100% available is so strong I have not even asked about returning to my civilian job. I know that units will tell you they expect you to have a civilian job to pay the bills it but in my experience it better be a distant second priority to your guard commitment. As the other posters have said you really need to live in the local area of your base for at least a few years and unless you are an airline pilot with travel benefits you will need to live within driving distance indefinitely. Edited January 18, 2012 by pilotapplicant
RogAir Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Copied from www.HRworld.com. "30 Interview questions you cannot ask" What you can't ask: How far is your commute? Although hiring employees who live close by may be convenient, you can't choose candidates based on their location. Find out about their availability instead. What to ask instead: Are you able to start work at 8 a.m.?What you can't ask: Do you live nearby? If your candidate lives outside of the city your company is hiring in, it may be necessary to have them move to your area. But again, you can't discriminate based on location. Rather, find out if the applicant is willing to move closer to the office. What to ask instead: Are you willing to relocate? If someone is not hired by a unit, they have nothing to lose by suing for discrimination (dick move, however). Units would be wise to avoid sticky legal situations by not making relocation a requirement/condition of employment. Run it by the JAG.
SocialD Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 As a junior drill status guardsman you would be expected to be at the unit 15 plus days per month. In my limited experience your leadership has the general expectation that you should want to be there all the time and be begging for orders or pay days and to even work for free if they can't pay you. I have a civilian job that I would like to return to but the culture of expecting young guys to be almost 100% available is so strong I have not even asked about returning to my civilian job. I know that units will tell you they expect you to have a civilian job to pay the bills it but in my experience it better be a distant second priority to your guard commitment. 15 days a month....as a guardsman!?! Most full time pilots only work 18 days a month (if your unit works 4x10s). Aside for the airlines, how could anyone find a civilian employer that puts up with that kind of schedule? How does the squadron have the days to support that? When I was interviewed they made it very clear that they were hiring you to be a guardsman and wanted to know what you planned on doing for full time employment. If they expected 15 days out of me, I would tell them to put me on full time orders. It's not a that I wouldn't want to be there, but you can't expect someone to come out there half the month on random pay days, especially if they have a family to support. To the OP: As has already been said, if you really want to be a fighter pilot, you better be willing to move. When you get off seasoning, you will still have to get 6-8 sorties a month. This will require at least 4-5 days a month. Throw in mx or weather cancels and that number goes up pretty quick. We have dudes that only live 3-4 hours away that have a hard time making their sorties. As Rainman said, the seasoning days are not enough. Everyone seems to think its 2 years, but it's actually only 1.5ish years. There are ways to stretch it out a little, especially of you deploy, but I wouldn't count on it. If the squadron has an alert commitment, it does become a little easier to get days. But I wouldn't count on that either...I think we'll find that gravy train is going to end for a few units, wrt alert. Which brings up another point...have a back up plan! Do yourself a favor and plan on living somewhat close. I would have moved anywhere to get the chance to be fighter pilot. It's the best job in the world and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I cringe at the thought of working back in corporate America! Do they still not allow you to say fuck? Copied from www.HRworld.com. "30 Interview questions you cannot ask. 1.) What you can't ask: How far is your commute? Although hiring employees who live close by may be convenient, you can't choose candidates based on their location. Find out about their availability instead. What to ask instead: Are you able to start work at 8 a. 2.) What you can't ask: Do you live nearby? If your candidate lives outside of the city your company is hiring in, it may be necessary to have them move to your area. But again, you can't discriminate based on location. Rather, find out if the applicant is willing to move closer to the office. What to ask instead: Are you willing to relocate? If someone is not hired by a unit, they have nothing to lose by suing for discrimination (dick move, however). Units would be wise to avoid sticky legal situations by not making relocation a requirement/condition of employment. Run it by the JAG. Ya....let me know how that works out! Do that and I can almost guarantee that you will not get hired anywhere! The flying community is very small and everyone has connections everywhere. If I don't know someone in a particular squadron, i'll bet that I know someone who does, just sayin...
pawnman Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Ya....let me know how that works out! Do that and I can almost guarantee that you will not get hired anywhere! The flying community is very small and everyone has connections everywhere. If I don't know someone in a particular squadron, i'll bet that I know someone who does, just sayin... Exactly. The burden of proof is on the applicant to prove they weren't hired due to location, and not because they are a douche. And if you are the type to attempt to sue, you are a douche. Interesting that HRWorld thinks that is a requirement...everywhere I worked before joining the Air Force had a block for "address" on the application/interview paperwork.
Royal Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Competition for one of these slots is steep enough amongst guys that live close. If you're not willing to drop everything and unequivocally make flying for the ARC your main priority over the next several years, you're probably going to get passed up by the dudes who won't think twice about it.
HeyWatchThis Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Copied from www.HRworld.com. "30 Interview questions you cannot ask" What you can't ask: How far is your commute? Although hiring employees who live close by may be convenient, you can't choose candidates based on their location. Find out about their availability instead. What to ask instead: Are you able to start work at 8 a.m.?What you can't ask: Do you live nearby? If your candidate lives outside of the city your company is hiring in, it may be necessary to have them move to your area. But again, you can't discriminate based on location. Rather, find out if the applicant is willing to move closer to the office. What to ask instead: Are you willing to relocate? If someone is not hired by a unit, they have nothing to lose by suing for discrimination (dick move, however). Units would be wise to avoid sticky legal situations by not making relocation a requirement/condition of employment. Run it by the JAG. HRWorld.com probably does not apply to a Fighter pilot position that requires a certain alert status (tahts beside the fact that you are signing up for a MILITARY unit, there are tons of civilian rules that are legally discarded when it comes to military job requirements). I promise you any federal attorney worth his/her salt would be able to argue a Bone fide needs case and win for the guard unit..... Edited January 18, 2012 by MattS
Danny Noonin Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Units would be wise to avoid sticky legal situations by not making relocation a requirement/condition of employment. Run it by the JAG. Except depending on how you read the regs, units can technically be "required" to put you up in the Q/hotel if you live out of town and are on certain statuses (Annual Tour, UTA, etc). That means you cost more money out of the severely limited budget that a local person would not cost. Since that means a potential "employee" would cost the "employer" more money to do the exact same work if they were hired, it is a valid, legal discriminator that could be used in a hiring decision. So, yes, many flying units require you to live in the local area.
Guest Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Most full time pilots only work 18 days a month (if your unit works 4x10s). Seriously? There are units where the Ops guys work 4x10s? That's fucked up.
SocialD Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Seriously? There are units where the Ops guys work 4x10s? That's fucked up. Yes. I can only think of a few squadrons that don't. The FTUs and I think McEntire, come to mind.
RogAir Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Except depending on how you read the regs, units can technically be "required" to put you up in the Q/hotel if you live out of town and are on certain statuses (Annual Tour, UTA, etc). That means you cost more money out of the severely limited budget that a local person would not cost. Since that means a potential "employee" would cost the "employer" more money to do the exact same work if they were hired, it is a valid, legal discriminator that could be used in a hiring decision. So, yes, many flying units require you to live in the local area. And a married Capt costs more than a single Capt--so can marriage status be a discriminator? How does this local area req't play out? Example: Pilot X is a current/qualified F-16 pilot coming off active duty living on the East Coast (with airline job). A West Coast unit wants to hire him. Do they say "You're hired once you establish an address out here" Or do they hire him and tell he has to move within x months? What if he moves and then 6 months later moves back to the East Coast--is he fired? I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think the USAFR can tell you where to live in a TR status. If you are on AD orders for an extended period, I believe the situation is different. From www.afreserve.com FAQ's: Will I have to move to serve at a specific base? The AF Reserve does not require you to move. You will be assigned to a Reserve Unitthat you choose. If for personal reasons you need to move at a later date, you can transfer to another Reserve Unit.
Guest Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Yes. I can only think of a few squadrons that don't. The FTUs and I think McEntire, come to mind. I know there were/are fighter units where mx worked 4/10 and there was 4.5 days flying but the full time guys worked 5 days a week. I cannot imagine a 4 day work week for a full time pilot in a fighter unit, especially AGR. That's just plain fucked up.
Fast_N_Low135 Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 I know there were/are fighter units where mx worked 4/10 and there was 4.5 days flying but the full time guys worked 5 days a week. I cannot imagine a 4 day work week for a full time pilot in a fighter unit, especially AGR. That's just plain ######ed up. I know of a guard heavy unit where the full timers do 4/9s, to make it an 80 hr pay period they work and extra 8 hr day every other week. In this case, 1/2 of the aircrew would get Mondays off, the other 1/2 would get Fridays off. Seems to work for them.
Danny Noonin Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 The AF Reserve does not require you to move. Let me use a better example than UTAs/AT since those are centrally funded. In the AF Reserve, when you are put on RPA (reserve paid for man days) then that all comes out of the unit's RPA pot...including travel, billeting, per diem, etc. the RPA pot is a dollar amount (not a specific number of days). A unit can use those dollars to put a Lt Col on a week of man days or an A1C on a shit ton of man days for the same amount of money depending on their needs. Folks who need billeting and per diem drain that pot of money far faster than those who don't. Which means that in the end, the unit actually gets fewer days of work out of the annual pot if they have to pay for that stuff all the time. Your example of a married guy costing more than a single guy only comes into play if a unit puts someone on orders for more than 30 consecutive days because then BAH kicks in only at that point. Anything less than 30 days of orders and he married guy and the single guy cost the same. Since units can pretty easily manage the issuing of >30 days of RPA orders, that one is pretty easy to mitigate. But in a flying squadron it is much harder to say "no man days at all" to all of the non-local guys so out of towners do cause a serious budget hit in a time when man day accounts have dried up which is having fairly significant mission impact. So yes, while AFRC itself may not require you to live local, a unit can because they are the ones doing the hiring and they can stay away from dudes who will cause them more challenges. The agreement to live local, at least with my fighter squadron, was a gentlemans agreement. I did not sign anything and they probably wouldn't have fired me if i didn't live up to my end, but they sure as shit wouldn't have done me any favors if I screwed them over. Man days can be like gold depending on your situation, so it's not wise to be "that guy" pointing out things like AF reserve FAQs as your source of moral authority to your squadron when they hold the keys to your jet and your paycheck. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
EvilEagle Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 I know there were/are fighter units where mx worked 4/10 and there was 4.5 days flying but the full time guys worked 5 days a week. I cannot imagine a 4 day work week for a full time pilot in a fighter unit, especially AGR. That's just plain fucked up. We work 4x10's and it sucks. Sounds great at first, but any sortie that we lose is incredibly hard to get back. Not to mention that our MX is in the street. It's wierd working only 4 days a week. I think we are moving back to 5 days. All the guard babies are complaining and all of us old AD guys are looking forward to it. I think it was something about commuting after Katrina, not sure but in any case, it's old news.
Guest Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Losing sories in that scenario are impossible to get back. Ops only working 4 days a week is a fucking joke. 4/10 mx only works if mx actually has people at work all five days. They can have enough folks to do sched mx on Mondays, single go every other Monday.
matmacwc Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 We work a 4x9x8, most days are 9, some are 8 and we get about 2 days a month off during the week, usually a monday and sometimes a friday. We hear a lot of pros and cons, not sure if it will last long.
Guest Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 I think we are moving back to 5 days. All the guard babies are complaining and all of us old AD guys are looking forward to it. LOL Standard.
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