I think they TOTALLY get it (Suicides)

[busdriver]

Thats a Roger...

to the Nimrod boys, wish there was more I could have done for you guys.

Big black smoking smear and not much else.

[ThreeHoler]

Where do you get this leadership gem from? Sun Tzu? Clausewitz?

The MORAL LAW causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger. ... The COMMANDER stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness.

...

The consummate leader cultivates the moral law, and strictly adheres to method and discipline; thus it is in his power to control success.

...

Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look upon them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death.

Sun Tzu

[Murph]

That's all very nice. Where does it say not to tell your troops to accept the reality of life and move on?

[Rusty Pipes]

That's all very nice. Where does it say not to tell your troops to accept the reality of life and move on?

We all know that we are going to get a wide variety of commanders. Some you would follow anywhere they asked because you know without a doubt that they are looking out for you (a very rare breed these days) and then we have the majority of our current managers who couldn't lead a bowling ball down a hill. When you have an actual leader as a commander, even in the worst of conditions they will rarely have to use the term "suck it up"... and if they do then you can be damn sure the word "we" is going to preface it and not "you". I've been in really crap situations with a great commander and guess what... nobody complained about anything and because of the way he led there was even an "Is that all you got?" attitude amongst the guys. Morale was through the roof!

We've been at this for a long time and folks are pretty burnt out. Ridiculous ideas like "everyone is a warrior" and "resiliency" coming from some commander who hasn't been in the fight for 4-5 years because he was off at Staff and School doesn't mean shit to that TSgt MX or SP troop who just PCS'd to Langley and is headed out on his 7th deployment while his recent ex-wife and young kids are still at Travis or McChord! Does he need to hear "suck it up" from his Sq or Wing Commander? You can't lead through e-mail and Commander's Calls and you certainly aren't going to lower suicide rates amongst a tired force with buzz words and CBT's

[SuperWSO]

Sun Tzu

You forgot the classic...

Gird your soldiers in belts of light, that they might be visible from every aspect. None shall smite they that glow.

[Toro]

I guess the Army totally gets it, too.

[BQZip01]

I guess the Army totally gets it, too.

Seems like that General pretty much got it...and then was forced to make a PC decision

[Butters]

Seems like that General pretty much got it...and then was forced to make a PC decision

No, the General does not get it. If fact he is the selfish asshole. He doesn’t give a rat’s ass if some of these people kill themselves. He was just pissed that it happened on his watch. He is trying to vent his frustrations and shame others into not killing themselves, so he doesn't have to explain more suicides to his bosses. Typical behavior from someone wanting to get promoted. If he cared he would find the root of the problem and fix it. Just like DUIs. Hey, let’s punish everyone one on base who did not drink and drive last night, that ought to fix it!

[Champ Kind]

He was just pissed that it happened on his watch. He is trying to vent his frustrations and shame others into not killing themselves, so he doesn't have to explain more suicides to his bosses.

This.

/endthread.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

No, the General does not get it. If fact he is the selfish asshole. He doesn’t give a rat’s ass if some of these people kill themselves. He was just pissed that it happened on his watch. He is trying to vent his frustrations and shame others into not killing themselves, so he doesn't have to explain more suicides to his bosses. Typical behavior from someone wanting to get promoted. If he cared he would find the root of the problem and fix it. Just like DUIs. Hey, let’s punish everyone one on base who did not drink and drive last night, that ought to fix it!

Got to experience this fun just this past Friday. A few airmen from another squadron in the wind decided to go out and get drunk (underage while they are at it). The result-- wing wide 0500 recall. That'll fix it.

[Masshole]

Suicide is a mental trap, an impairment to thier own logic and ability to think.

Not always. Why would someone want to live in anguish? There is a level of physical pain in which suicide should be acceptable. Also, if someone has dug themselves down in a proverbial hole and has no way out of it, what would you do for them? It is not fair to judge people for choosing suicide as a way out, especially when you do not suffer what they have. It might seem illogical, but it might be their only relief and relief for the people around them. I do not advocate suicide, but it was definitely seen in a different light where I lived prior versus here in the US.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Masshole

[Butters]

Now I know why I always want to kill myself after sitting through a suicide prevention brief.

[Guest]

Also, if someone has dug themselves down in a proverbial hole and has no way out of it, what would you do for them?

There is always a way out.

[HeloDude]

I do not advocate suicide, but it was definitely seen in a different light where I lived prior versus here in the US.

Welcome to the United States (or what's left of it). There's a reason we have a separate/distinct culture compared to most of the world...though we're slowly losing our identity.

[BQZip01]

What an old, stupid-ass argument. "Selfish" means one is acting in an egoistic, self-centered manner. It's a logical leap to say one who values thier own life so little would intentionally end thier life to satisfy that ego at the expense of those around him.

Suicide is a mental trap, an impairment to thier own logic and ability to think. Do you really believe someone who considers death as the best solution also possesses the capacity for sound reason and judgement with regard to consideration of those left behind? If so, then we have two people with mental impairments.

"Hey Buddy, are you contemplating suicide?"

"Yeah."

"Well, you're a fucking selfish asshole."

Good job, wingman.

Well, if you want to be a douche about it and not help the situation, then by all means, be a fucking prick

My comments (and that of the General) were a simple analysis of what suicide is, not the feelings of those who commit suicide.

Selfishness is thinking oneself first and others second/not at all. If you define selfishness in the manner you mentioned, then I agree with you, but it isn't the definition I used.

The act of suicide is an illogical act. A person acting in this manner cannot see a larger picture and they need help. They are weak and need some help getting back up. I would imagine all of us have felt this way at some point in our lives. But most of us see beyond our immediate surroundings and realize there is more to life than our current situation. Those feeling suicidal are not thinking clearly. Those who choose suicide take the easy way out. They don't want to feel the pain anymore and they feel death is preferable to living in anguish...

...but they don't see beyond their own situation and the impact that their deaths will cause.

When I was a young Captain a friend of my wife's killed himself. This individual's girlfriend had broken up with him and he couldn't see his life without her. He felt suicide was the only way out because "no one understands exactly how I feel". I was there when we told his mother he was dead. I was there when she screamed in heart-wrenching pain and his father collapsed to the ground in complete shock...

...I was also there at the funeral when 700+ people showed up in a space for 150. I listened to conversations like "man, I've been there before. I'm so glad I didn't do anything like that" and "yeah, me too". 700+ people cared and hundreds more sent letters of regret about not being able to be there.

Those who commit suicide believe it makes the situation better for them, when in fact it reduces your feelings to irrelevancy and only makes EVERYONE else's situation worse.

I'm not trying to speak ill of the dead. Many of them have mental problems that lead them into this very bad decision; their logic isn't really functioning properly to make decisions like this; hence, they are irrational. This may be a chemical imbalance or substance abuse problem or any number of things, but analyzing it from an outside perspective, it is a selfish act since the only perceived benefit is for the person committing suicide.

So, how do you deal with someone without doing what gear pig suggests?

Do SOMETHING to help! The fact that a person is still alive is sufficient proof that part of him wants to remain alive. The suicidal person is ambivalent -- part of him wants to live and part of him wants not so much death as he wants the pain to end. It is the part that wants to live that tells another "I feel suicidal." If a suicidal person turns to you it is likely that he believes that you are more caring, more informed about coping with misfortune, and more willing to protect his confidentiality. No matter how negative the manner and content of his talk, he is doing a positive thing and has a positive view of you. Be willing to give and get help sooner rather than later.

Unfortunately, suicidal people are afraid that trying to get help may bring them more pain: being told they are stupid, foolish, sinful, or manipulative; rejection; punishment; suspension from school or job; written records of their condition; or involuntary commitment. You need to do everything you can to reduce pain, rather than increase or prolong it. Constructively involving yourself on the side of life as early as possible will reduce the risk of suicide.

Listen. Give the person every opportunity to unburden his troubles and ventilate his feelings. You don't need to say much and there are no magic words. If you are concerned, your voice and manner will show it. Give him relief from being alone with his pain; let him know you are glad he turned to you. Patience, sympathy, acceptance. Avoid arguments and advice giving.

Talking about it may give someone the idea? Puh-lease. People already have the idea; suicide is constantly in the news media. If you ask a despairing person this question you are doing a good thing for them: you are showing him that you care about him, that you take him seriously, and that you are willing to let him share his pain with you. You are giving him further opportunity to discharge pent up and painful feelings. If the person is having thoughts of suicide, find out how far along his ideation has progressed.

Lastly, do NOT leave them alone. If the means are present, try to get rid of them. Detoxify the home. I've wrestled someone to the ground to prevent them from harming themselves. While the person was screaming some pretty hateful things at me at the time, once the person got their head screwed on straight and addressed some undiagnosed depression issues, this person thanked me profusely for not giving up.

Some of this was pulled from a suicide prevention website.

[Guest]

Well, if you want to be a douche about it and not help the situation, then by all means, be a fucking prick

blah blah blah TLDR

I've wrestled someone to the ground to prevent them from harming themselves.

OK, hang on, I think I'm sensing something here...

Are you talking about dealing with your own issues and your own internal struggles?

Are you considering taking your own life right now?

[Boxhead]

That whole post

I always kinda thought all those posts about being in some sort of cyber love with PowerPoint was a joke...but you really live that stuff! It's kinda impressive.

[BQZip01]

YGBFKM. You're a real piece of work.

I wrote most of that, but I'm not going to take credit for some basic advice (the last two paragraphs) I didn't write.

You know what? Yeah, it's a topic I'm pretty passionate considering two people close to me were in that situation. You don't think it's worth reading? Fine, don't read it.

Edited May 29, 2012 by BQZip01

[HuggyU2]

I would recommend a solo flight to all prospective suicides. It tends to make clear the issue of whether one enjoys being alive or not.

— T. H. White, '

England Have My Bones,' 1936

Edited May 29, 2012 by Huggyu2

[BQZip01]

I would recommend a solo flight to all prospective suicides. It tends to make clear the issue of whether one enjoys being alive or not.

— T. H. White, 'England Have My Bones,' 1936

I laughed

[Kilgore Trout]

I would recommend a solo flight to all prospective suicides. It tends to make clear the issue of whether one enjoys being alive or not.

— T. H. White, '

England Have My Bones,' 1936

So you're saying the Air Force should keep base Aero Clubs open? Sounds like that would reduce suicides.

[BQZip01]

You seemed to agree with the General's sentiment, "suicide is selfish", which I believe is a simple-minded approach to the issue. I just couldn't make sense of your reply that agreed with me, but also lectured us all with the same suicide prevention brief we've recieved 69+ times, partially plagiarized from another website. I just had no idea what conversation you were trying to have. That's all.

fair nuff. Maybe I did ramble a "bit" there [cough] understatement

[BattleRattle]

University of Ky. to study military suicides

https://www.airforcet...uicides-082612/

Edited August 27, 2012 by BattleRattle

[Prozac]

While I think it's good that there is someone outside the military looking at the situation, it amazes me that there are a bunch of generals sitting around scratching their heads looking for the "root cause". Really? Keep squeezing the turnip, watch the suicide rates stay high. Simple.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

While I think it's good that there is someone outside the military looking at the situation, it amazes me that there are a bunch of generals sitting around scratching their heads looking for the "root cause". Really? Keep squeezing the turnip, watch the suicide rates stay high. Simple.

Maybe we can talk about it at our next commander's call at 1700 on a Friday