I think they TOTALLY get it (Suicides)

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/01/air-force-suicides-rise-lead-to-standdown-013012w/

January 2012 has seen a record number of suicides across the Air Force. What does the Air Force do? Why, they schedule a 1 day stand down for additional resiliency training. How idiotic. This mindset that you can just brief away problems only causes more problems. So we have a one day standdown. During that we are reminded just how "important" we are. The Air Force can't afford to lose any one of its airmen (well, aside from the thousands they fired last year, and the additional ten thousand they are seeking to get rid of). Instead of a day off, we get another day of briefings. Monday morning we come back to more of the same.

--More briefings about what needs to be briefed

--More slides to create

--More CBTs to accomplish

--More "volunteer opportunities"

--More reinvention of the wheel, and disregard of common sense

--More mandatory "training" that has nothing to do with your job

--More lectures implying that we're on the verge of driving drunk or raping someone (or killing ourselves)

--More uniform changes and associated queep

Guys who want out can't get out. Guys who stay in are constantly worried that putting up with all the queep will be met with a hearty "you're fired" from leadership that can't stand to lose you. I'm not saying anyone should kill themselves. There's always a better way, but I can understand how someone can get into a situation so miserable and desperate that the only way out that they can see is by killing themselves. Throw in some family stress that comes with multiple, endless deployments and it would be enough to push a lot of guys over the edge.

The problem isn't that we aren't told enough times to not kill ourselves. Its that the root causes are never addressed. Guys aren't killing themselves because they don't know any better, they're killing themselves because they can't deal with the bullshit anymore, and they feel that nobody cares. This post may be a bit of a vent, but articles like what I linked to frustrate the hell out of me.

[Guest one]

We had a sports day for our resiliency day. They said teamwork and camaraderie keeps people from killing themselves. Playing ultimate Frisbee for three hours and then going home 4 hours early isn't too bad.

Hopefully, most squadrons will use the day for a BBQ or a sports day and not a 8 hour version of a suicide awareness briefing.

[daynightindicator]

our base had a suicide less than 72 hours after the stand down. you're right that the root causes need to be addressed, however in many cases it is a very personal situation/problem that leads down this road (i.e. financial, family, or legal troubles - or combinations of the those).

i'm not saying Air Force policies, deployment tempos, shitty assingments, etc are not causal factors, but usually there is something more personal that is a root cause that puts someone over the edge.

[ThreeHoler]

The dirty little secret of suicide: those who want to kill themselves, will.

Corollary: you honestly cannot understand the though process that brings someone to the point of straight up killing themselves as opposed to making a suicide attempt. This thought process is so completely irrational that we sit around after a friend commits suicide and we just can't understand. Unless you personally have experienced the absolute destructiveness of the suicide thought process, you can't comprehend it. The best way to describe it is that a suicidal person lacks the ability to understand, whether through anger or isolation, the effect their actions will have on the people around them.

To truly achieve resilience within the AF, we have to build lasting friendships with our fellow service and/or community members. The number one thing that stops people, aside from those who will kill themselves anyway, is that real connection with other people. No amount of training, CBTs, or resilience/wingman days can instill the type of personal relationships needed to give a suicidal person pause in their actions.

[Techsan]

We spent our Monday listening to PowerPoint briefings, but at least we could wear flight suits. That made it a tad more tolerable. I like the idea of ultimate frisbee & going home early though.

I'm curious to what the suicide rates are for corporations similar in size to the AF. I'm guessing that it's probably pretty similar. I agree that ops tempo & the like are contributors, but very small ones. More likely are issues such as financial problems/depressed economy & family issues.

Oh, and Napoleon, I think you need to be more resilient & bounce back from that article!

[Tank]

Ours was on Friday, started at 0800 and ended at 1630 and then the base went straight into ATSO training until about 1830. Needless to say, if you didn't want to kill yourself before that day, you definately did after 10.5 hours of briefings.

[spaceman]

To truly achieve resilience within the AF, we have to build lasting friendships with our fellow service and/or community members. The number one thing that stops people, aside from those who will kill themselves anyway, is that real connection with other people. No amount of training, CBTs, or resilience/wingman days can instill the type of personal relationships needed to give a suicidal person pause in their actions.

Exactly.

[BQZip01]

A-freaking men

[polcat]

Ours was Thursday. Yes, we got to go home and be "resilient" with our families after lunch. However, I lost all resiliency as I had to go in Saturday and administer 5 checkrides in the sim (I felt bad for the students). Oh, and then I spent Sunday working on another paper for my master's. Weekend gone. Resiliency my ass.

[Flare]

We had a 30 minute brief, CC call, and a pilot meeting. Total of about 2 hours. Then we went and watched Red Tails, and then played softball. A good day, but I agree with Napoleon. It was angering to me that they're focusing on the suicides and not the cause behind them (or at least a major contributing factor): our broken Air Force. They (senior leadership) just don't get it.

[pawnman]

SoS had one Monday...which was a normal day of classes, followed by a 1 hour powerpoint by the flight commanders. At least our flight commander had the decency to admit that you won't ever stop all suicides in the Air Force.

[Whitman]

Guys aren't killing themselves because they don't know any better, they're killing themselves because they can't deal with the bullshit anymore, and they feel that nobody cares. This post may be a bit of a vent, but articles like what I linked to frustrate the hell out of me.

Are you implying that airmen are so distraught with AF policy that they take their own lives? The leading cause of suicide is untreated depression. I seriously doubt someone is hanging themselves because they got chiefed at 3am on their way to the cadillac. I'm shocked at how many people let the queep consume them and ruin their outlook on a career in the AF. We get paid to fly jets for a living, just let it roll of your back and press. With that said, leadership by powerpoint was not the best way to handle resiliency day. A round table discussion between key leaders and the wing commander on direct involvement of leadership and getting to know your people would've been much more effective.

[SuperWSO]

SoS had one Monday...which was a normal day of classes, followed by a 1 hour powerpoint by the flight commanders. At least our flight commander had the decency to admit that you won't ever stop all suicides in the Air Force.

That has always bothered me. Other threads have mentioned when the Air Force sets the goal of zero (suicides, accidents, misplaced nuclear weapons, etc) This leads to the ugly question, how many suicides are OK? Zero isn't achievable unless we all start getting prozac at the base BK with our Whopper, but no one in leadership will ever say, we tried but just couldn't reach that guy/gal. We had three suicides at Pensacola while I was going through VT-10/VT-86. The training kicked into high CYA gear after the third - it seemed like someone told the leadership they were not going any further if it happened again, so the Air Wing had death by powerpoint, suicide prevention cards, and a bunch of other stuff designed to show that leadership was "doing something."

t

[Champ Kind]

Ours was Thursday. Yes, we got to go home and be "resilient" with our families after lunch. However, I lost all resiliency as I had to go in Saturday and administer 5 checkrides in the sim (I felt bad for the students). Oh, and then I spent Sunday working on another paper for my master's. Weekend gone. Resiliency my ass.

Well, at least you got a long lunch, right? ....right? UFB.

stuff designed to show that leadership was "doing something."

And there is one of the causal failures in our organization. Reactions (often kneejerk) that mgmt feels are necessary to show that they are "doing something" and/or "in full compliance". I can just hear it now, "Oh, yes sir, all of our people have 100% attended 'Combat Orientation'" at a certain deployed location.

What they DIDN'T say is that it's a bullshit waste of time that any chimp with a powerpoint could "teach", that it fucked up rotations of aircrews on the flying schedule (circadian rhythm shifts, etc), and that guys had already been in-country for a month and had already learned from their bros what to do during a rocket attack.

But..... we are are in "full compliance."

Take this example and apply it to many things in the AF, and you'll see a pattern.

Ugh.

[HeloDude]

We had three suicides at Pensacola while I was going through VT-10/VT-86. The training kicked into high CYA gear after the third - it seemed like someone told the leadership they were not going any further if it happened again, so the Air Wing had death by powerpoint, suicide prevention cards, and a bunch of other stuff designed to show that leadership was "doing something."

t

That right there is the problem. Though I believe that none of the commanders are ok with suicides occurring (leadership does suck, but I don't think they're full of hatred), they only do these kinds of things when they're told to and/or when their leadership puts their asses on the line for having too many suicides, DUI's, etc.

I firmly believe that 90.69% of O-6's and above (you can also include BTZ O-5's) will always put their own self interests above what is truly the right thing to do. Often times their own self interests naturally match up with what is the right thing to do for people and the mission (ie take care of wounded soldiers because leadership is told to so and they'll look bad if they don't do it), but other times, these 'leaders' will do whatever is necessary to impress their own bosses and make sure that their own records shine--regardless of whether it's the right (read integrity) thing to do. They are "Yes Men" in the purest form.

Again, this is just my opinion...but you know what, it's close to the same opinion of the majority of my peers. And if we're wrong, then there is obviously a disconnect...but a disconnect none the less, and then the leadership should do something about it, because this opinion has negative effects. A leader is someone who inspires you to do what is needed...a manager just tells you what they believe needs to be done and then makes sure go ahead and do it. We have a lot of managers in the upper ranks.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Are you implying that airmen are so distraught with AF policy that they take their own lives? The leading cause of suicide is untreated depression. I seriously doubt someone is hanging themselves because they got chiefed at 3am on their way to the cadillac. I'm shocked at how many people let the queep consume them and ruin their outlook on a career in the AF. We get paid to fly jets for a living, just let it roll of your back and press. With that said, leadership by powerpoint was not the best way to handle resiliency day. A round table discussion between key leaders and the wing commander on direct involvement of leadership and getting to know your people would've been much more effective.

No, I'm not saying that the day in and day out BS of the Air Force alone is what is leading people to kill themselves, I'm saying it isn't helping. Most people put a lot of effort into their job, and when they are rewarded with more queep and asspain it doesn't do a lot of good for their mental well being. Furthermore, the idea that you can just brief away the problem is simultaneously laughable and tragic.

[spaceman]

I have often wondered what I would do if I was just standing around and happened to see an instance of "bad things" happening in the AF.

I thought I might pace back and forth with a scowl as if preoccupied by a perplexing moral dilemma.

Either that or attempt to erase it from my memory with massive amounts of alcohol.

As long as you don't go out and rape someone, drive home drunk, and then kill yourself...

[Day Man]

"Bystander Intervention Training"

FIFY

And yes, it's as terrible as it sounds.

[sky_king]

But, is it ever okay to call a woman a bitch?

[Beaver]

Guess Don Cornelious didn't get the brief.

[pawnman]

But, is it ever okay to call a woman a bitch?

The instructor and I differed on that point.

[DirkDiggler]

The instructor and I differed on that point.

2, I was pretty happy that my explaination of why thats ok left him with nothing intelligent to say.

[sky_king]

My answer was pretty simple, "Sure, if she's being a bitch."

[Rifleman96]

Had the Group Psychiatrist give us a briefing on resiliency training. Same BS as everybody else has gotten. He went on to explain that complaining about our situation (RPA's @ Glorious AFSOC West Coast base and going on 3 1/2 yrs) does not help the situation. I explained to him that it helps to sometimes have B!@#$ sessions, we can typically get some good laughs out of it. He then went on to explain that it statistically does not help individuals. He even went on further to explain a comparison of a WWII US POW in a GE prison camp preparing his mind for the ordeal and going on each day with a positive attitude. I'm not really sure if everybody else caught it, but I sat back in amazement that this guy just compared our situation to a WWII POW situation. I literally just started laughing. The second thing I took out of it is that he is saying I have to brainwash myself that everything is all good here in Blovistan sitting in a box.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Rifleman96

[HossHarris]

Guess Don Cornelious didn't get the brief.

Best headline I've seen:

"Don Cornelious Starts Black History Month Off with a Bang..."