1st female Air Force combat vet in run for congress

[Guest]

Taking off with no gas is a huge mistake. Singularly, I don't think it qualifies anyone as a bad pilot. If an event like that does, we have an Air Force full of shitty pilots based on all sorts of flying buffoonery, from FEs to WGs, I'm aware of in my 10 year career as an 11F.

Every pilot has a few instances in their career that could have led to an FEB. Assuming it's not criminal, learn from it, move on, and become better (in the words of G-Lo, "Mess up, fess-up"). It's good technique to look in the mirror before throwing spears at another flyer. IMO, poor form on anyone who would crucify another flyer based on one mistake. It's especially poor form to project a flying mistake on other aspects of a person's life.

It wasn't one mistake. And he said he wasn't going to get into a he said she said pissing contest with her. She was the consummate victim and she made a HUGE deal about anything she didn't like to shield herself from her lack of skill.

Let me ask you this...do you think he was lying about her abilities? Or what he witnessed about her attitude about being a pilot? Or that she was not the model of the Robin Olds type USAF leader and commander she is claiming she was?

He wasn't saying she isn't smart. He was saying she was a shitty pilot and she was an extreme careerist. You can look at her career and decide for yourself if it is possible that she planned every move she made in order to advance her career or if she really was focused on flying and was not a square filling careerist type that everyone says we need to get rid of. I don't care what you think, just take a minute to think for yourself about what he said.

Everyone is always bitching about how no one has the balls to stand up and make a statement when they see something fucked up. The guy you heard on the radio did that his entire career, including when he was a squadron commander (which he didn't even mention, along with a host of other awards and combat experiences he left out of the discussion). And he is still doing it today.

If anyone around here knows him and doesn't respect him then you are probably a weak sister. If you know him and respect him you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you don't know him you can take my word for it or make your own assumptions to include believing her side of the story.

BL: Taking off with no gas has nothing to do with McSally's run for Congress. A lot can be learned about her from the call yesterday, but her performance in the jet is completely non-sequitur to her run for Congress.

Listen again.

He was giving his personal opinion as a counter to her claims of being a talented combat fighter pilot who was dedicated to serving others and not herself which she is wanting to continue as a representative to congress from Arizona.

If you believe she is telling the truth and should be rewarded by being elected as an honest and humble public servant I suggest you contribute to her campaign. You can also change your residency and vote for her if she makes it to the general election.

[Ram]

A lot can be learned from the call yesterday, but her performance in the jet is completely non-sequitur to her candidacy.

You're missing the point.

She continuously cites her "combat experience" and "combat leadership" in the A-10 as proof positive that she's prepared for the tough job she's running for. A quick look at her site shows a fucking gorilla package of pictures: Her w/A-10, her in flight gear, her in uniform accepting awards...

But if she's NOT the combat superstar she claims to be, her whole "I'm a combat-proven leader" argument/platform goes *POOF*

What we have here is the cancer that has been dragging the Air Force down for decades. She has all the symptoms. Hell, her behavior IS the symptom. Careerism: it's not what we need in our federal government.

[WABoom]

As a veteran Flyer I know I have made mistakes on flights (minor ones) so I am a firm believer that minor mistakes should not be the downfall of anyone. I just wished it had come up to see what her response would've been. I wasn't judging, just wanted to listen to the dance.

Pancake read my post again though bud, I just wanted to hear the conversation not dissecting what kind of pilot she was, or future politican she may be because she didn't have enough gas.

Edited April 14, 2012 by WABoom

[Fuzz]

LOL

The point of my post was skepticism in her claims from the phone interview, since there is nothing on any website stating she was an A-10 IP (other than FAIP), mission qualified, or any awards (besides the Schilling award) EXCEPT on her websites or in articles she has written.

[Danger41]

As a veteran Flyer I know I have made mistakes on flights (minor ones) so I am a firm believer that minor mistakes should not be the downfall of anyone. I just wished it had come up to see what her response would of been. I wasn't judging, just wanted to listen to the dance.

Pancake read my post again though bud, I just wanted to hear the conversation not dissecting what kind of pilot she was, or future politican she may be because she didn't have enough gas.

It is "would've". A contraction of "would have". Nothing personal, but that just bugs the hell out of me and you did it twice.

I agree with the sentiment that great pilot does not a great leader make. However, when you're saying you were a shit hot pilot and that will make you a great leader, you better have been a damn good pilot.

[WABoom]

Fixed.

[Bullet]

Still, it would have been awesome if Chuck finished his side of the phone conversation with "Remember how you used your protected celebrity status so you always got special treatment above guys more deserving and capable in the job? Well, payback is a McChing!"

See what I did there? Cleverly replacing "bitch" with "McChing"? Damn, I'm funny....

[Guest]

Everyone can untwist their panties... This is why I hate participating in this forum... No tolerance for anything less than "mob rule."

Is that a tear I see running down your cheek?

I am addressing you man to man. No mob here. Just me.

No matter how good or bad of a pilot she was, she served and has every right to use that as a competitive advantage over her opponents.

Noted. However, she doesn't have the right to say she was something she wasn't and not get called on it. Get real.

I'm sure there's a slew of A-10 pilots who think I'm a sub-par instructor and a detriment to the Hog community

You are?

Damn. That's too bad.

Regardless of what help she had along the way, or her attitude about it, she has Form 8s signed by "the man" that says she's good enough... If she was truly dangerous, any IP or FE who flew with and passed her for unsafe flying is probably more to blame and is a bigger problem than her careerism-they could have stopped it two decades ago.

You talk about people being naive. Check Victor.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. You clearly cannot imagine what it would be like to have the SecAF on down and influential politicians calling your squadron.

A few people did stand up and say NFW she should be flying the jet. TomChuck gave examples of how he did that very fucking thing. If it were not for Nellis plucking him out of that nightmare he would probably fallen on that sword with an IG complaint and any other thing he could do, burnt bridges and his own career be damned.

He continues to say what he believes is the truth. He is calling her out. Period.

There are plenty of pilots in leadership roles, great leaders and terrible leaders, that are less than stellar tactically. So, it's really a false argument to say that because she may have been a terrible pilot, she was unfit to be a commander or candidate for Congress.

You're still totally missing the point.

The point is she is unfit because she is dishonest about who she is and why she should be trusted with people's votes.

But like Jim pointed out (and what CN was trying to point out before Garret Lewis, the obnoxious host he is, interrupted) her flying performance isn't the issue. The focus should be on the way she handles adversity.

She handles it by pulling the fucking fire alarm or threatening to do so. She sued the DoD because she was told to put on a shirt over her sports bra when she ran around the perimeter road at Al Jaber. What she was doing was uncomfortable for the host nation troops who saw her running in short shorts and a sports bra. She blew that up into her flail against the family Saud (which had nothing to do with her real issue with what happened at Al Jaber) and the Department of Defense.

Focusing strictly on the fact that she made mistakes isn't the point. The way she handles adversity is. And as for careerism, show me one elected official in Washington that isn't a careerist. Ironically, the Mr. Smith-type reps don't seem to last long in DC. The Air Force really is no different. VSP, RIF, etc... proved you have to play the game by not "showing your cards" to maintain viable careers as officers and pilots, despite your true desire to run for the door. Everything is a game. To believe otherwise is naive.

All I can say is I am very disappointed you feel this way. It doesn't have to be that way. Some people are able to follow the WWROD path and make it work. Few, but some.

Like I said, feel free to put your money where your mouth is. You can contribute to her campaign with a couple mouse clicks.

[skibum]

So, it's really a false argument to say that because she may have been a terrible pilot, she was unfit to be a commander or candidate for Congress, as is her claim that a great pilot translates to a great leader.

I disagree.

1. If you fly single seat fighters and you are "a terrible pilot", I believe that does indeed make you unfit to be a commander (at least of that type fighter squadron). Being a decent leader, and being a decent leader in a particular position/culture are not necessarily synonymous. This culture historically requires credibility in the jet to lead with credibility as the CC. I can think of no examples of dudes (or chicks) who suck at flying yet are great squadron commanders. Bottom line - it matters.

2. I don't doubt you can be "a terrible pilot" and be a good congressional leader. I bet almost all (with a very few notable exceptions) of the great congressional leaders in history suck at flying. The difference in this case is she is using the idea that she didn't suck at flying as a campaign issue. In that case, fight's on and all the critiques are legit arguing points.

[Pancake]

Is that a tear I see running down your cheek?

I am addressing you man to man. No mob here. Just me.

Noted. However, she doesn't have the right to say she was something she wasn't and not get called on it. Get real.

You are?

Damn. That's too bad.

You talk about people being naive. Check Victor.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. You clearly cannot imagine what it would be like to have the SecAF on down and influential politicians calling your squadron.

A few people did stand up and say NFW she should be flying the jet. TomChuck gave examples of how he did that very ######ing thing. If it were not for Nellis plucking him out of that nightmare he would probably fallen on that sword with an IG complaint and any other thing he could do, burnt bridges and his own career be damned.

He continues to say what he believes is the truth. He is calling her out. Period.

You're still totally missing the point.

The point is she is unfit because she is dishonest about who she is and why she should be trusted with people's votes.

She handles it by pulling the ######ing fire alarm or threatening to do so. She sued the DoD because she was told to put on a shirt over her sports bra when she ran around the perimeter road at Al Jaber. What she was doing was uncomfortable for the host nation troops who saw her running in short shorts and a sports bra. She blew that up into her flail against the family Saud (which had nothing to do with her real issue with what happened at Al Jaber) and the Department of Defense.

All I can say is I am very disappointed you feel this way. It doesn't have to be that way. Some people are able to follow the WWROD path and make it work. Few, but some.

Like I said, feel free to put your money where your mouth is. You can contribute to her campaign with a couple mouse clicks.

Dude. I deleted the post you referenced because it's pointless to engage in a discussion with you.

My single point is that her flying mistakes have nothing to do with her viability as a candidate. The way she handled those mistakes and other adversity (or favoritism) is what's important. People that want to attack her singularly because she wasn't Robin Olds in the jet and says she was are missing the point. BTW, Antenori and Kelly are doing the same thing (Green Beret and Marine rifleman, respectively).

She handles it by pulling the ######ing fire alarm or threatening to do so. She sued the DoD because she was told to put on a shirt over her sports bra when she ran around the perimeter road at Al Jaber. What she was doing was uncomfortable for the host nation troops who saw her running in short shorts and a sports bra. She blew that up into her flail against the family Saud (which had nothing to do with her real issue with what happened at Al Jaber) and the Department of Defense.

Yeah dude, I get it. You can afford to throw spears because you know her. I've never met her-only heard stories about her from people like you. So I'm not going to throw spears in a public forum, especially about someone who I know only through lore. My point is that her calling in to go toe-to-toe with Chuck Norris says a lot about her as a candidate. Since you were there, I'll let you highlight all the reasons why someone shouldn't vote for her.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Pancake

[Pancake]

You have no idea what you are talking about here. You clearly cannot imagine what it would be like to have the SecAF on down and influential politicians calling your squadron.

A few people did stand up and say NFW she should be flying the jet. TomChuck gave examples of how he did that very ######ing thing. If it were not for Nellis plucking him out of that nightmare he would probably fallen on that sword with an IG complaint and any other thing he could do, burnt bridges and his own career be damned.

He continues to say what he believes is the truth. He is calling her out. Period.

And good on him-that's integrity. My point, however, FS/CCs and OG/CCs signed her Form 8s. Before you jump my shit, I'm inferring that if she was unsafe to fly, FS/CCs and OG/CCs may have tied their progression to her progression, which is equally or more egregious than accounts of her personal actions. Otherwise, IPs, FEs, and CCs along the way all said she met standards when they signed her passing gradesheets/Form 8s.

You're right, I can't imagine elected officials calling to check in on an individual pilot. And like you said, it got to the point where pressing the issue would have ended the careers of some great Hog pilots. So, WWROD? I'm not chucking spears at or criticizing anyone other than to acknowledge that at some point we're all careerists looking out for our own hide.

Flame away...

[Red Fox]

My understanding is that she was below the zone to major (I might add at a time when I saw a lot of good pilots passed-over), but that she wasn't a four-ship flight lead yet. Is that true? If so, did she ever qualify as a four-ship flight lead, IP, or mission commander?

[busdriver]

The issue is that she's using her experience as an A-10 pilot as a qualifying mark for her to be a congressional leader. Except there is little evidence that she showed any leadership while she was flying the A-10. Hence my question about Sandy 1 qual. If she was merely saying "I served as an Air Force officer" that would be one thing, but she's claiming combat leadership based on her time in the Hog that isn't warranted, further to that she also can't claim SME experience that a Sandy1 qual would indicate.

To sum it up: she's saying "I was a fighter pilot!" And my response is why should I care?

[Ram]

To sum it up: she's saying "I was a fighter pilot!" And my response is why should I care?

Most of us are awesome. Sometimes shitty ones get pushed through as part of a militant feminist agenda. What can ya do.

[Tank]

The issue is that she's using her experience as an A-10 pilot as a qualifying mark for her to be a congressional leader. Except there is little evidence that she showed any leadership while she was flying the A-10. Hence my question about Sandy 1 qual. If she was merely saying "I served as an Air Force officer" that would be one thing, but she's claiming combat leadership based on her time in the Hog that isn't warranted, further to that she also can't claim SME experience that a Sandy1 qual would indicate.

To sum it up: she's saying "I was a fighter pilot!" And my response is why should I care?

I am not defending her in anyway but am just wondering how a Sandy 1 qual equates to leadership while flying the A-10?

Yes, being a Sandy 1 is a big deal but then you can also say that being a FAC(A), 2-Ship, 4-Ship, IP, SEFE, etc... also shows leadership while flying the A-10. Being a squadron commander also shows leadership.

You are right though, I could care less on if she was a fighter pilot or what quals she held while flying the A-10 but when running for Congress, I want to know how she is going to help the greater good and once being a fighter pilot should not matter b/c we all saw how that helped Duke Cunningham.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Tank

[Guest]

Flame away...

Don't care.

I will mention one thing, just to try to raise your overall SA...

Your "Robin Olds in the jet" reference is not à propos. I'll give you a pass on that because you probably never met him. It is important you understand what her represents.

What made Robin Olds a great leader was more about what he did on the ground than it was about what he did in the jet but it is really about being an all around leader who is respected and who others try to emulate. The fact that he was willing to kick over garbage cans when appropriate, keep his mouth shut when appropriate, lead any mission and inspire others is what we are really talking about.

I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else anything about McKaching even though many people would like nothing more than for me to shit all over her. All I could do is throw a bunch of titillating bullshit out there for the crowd and I said I wasn't going to do that several pages ago. TC tried to speak up and you can see the reaction. tough to do when people don't have perspective. Once a person becomes willing to claim victim status because of race or gender or religion and use that as a defense for all their shortcomings they become almost impossible to call out.

Let's remember something important, she is thrusting herself into the public spotlight here. It is not like people are seeking her out just to bully her. She is running for an important job. The very nature of the job she is running for requires qualification of her character and she must demonstrate that she is qualified, which includes addressing any challenges to her character. Some people say it shows a lot that she called in to challenge TC. She had no choice if she really wants to be elected and I am sure she very much does. She called in, started to defend herself, pointed to the very same vetting process to qualify as a MR pilot and FS/CC people here are saying she made it through (implying she must've met the min) and eventually claimed victim status.

I have given my opinion about what kind of person she is and that's all I've got on that.

TC did the right thing. I publicly scoff the duck and anyone who says "we need more leaders who kick ass in the jet and are dependable toward their people, stand up and speak out without regard for how it will impact their own career and give a shit about promoting the right things for the right reasons" and then says TC was wrong for calling out the duplicity of her campaign claims. Especially if you don't know either one of them.

Again, contribute to her campaign and vote for her if you want. I wouldn't.

[nsplayr]

Marine rifleman

This is a redundant statement. Just FYI.

Edited April 15, 2012 by nsplayr

[Flatley]

This is a redundant statement. Just FYI.

"Every Marine a rifleman" is analogous to "Every airman a warrior" and provokes about the same response from a real grunt. Kelly was a squad leader with a line infantry unit, so the distinction is warranted.

Anyway...

[StainedClass]

Damn, she's good. I have no doubt what Tom C. says is true, but as articulate and credible as he is, she turns it around and makes him look like a bitter, chauvinistic old fart to the uneducated listener. If you listen closely to what she says, she states that she 'excelled in training' (FTU), 'met standards', and 'passed a checkride given to her by her SQ/CC'. All technically correct, verifiable and cleverly spun.

All of us old guys who have spent half our lives in a flying squadron know the type of person MM is (or is purported to be), but these types of people, male and female, are political masters of spin. The everyday, non-pilot citizen can't follow what Tom was saying on the radio but those of us that have spent a career dealing with people like MM can. I've seen it several times in my career (maybe not to that extreme, with GOs and members of Congress calling the scheduler to check on her) and I could see myself in that exact situation Tom found himself in, with the same results.

I suppose the only thing you can do is not vote for her. I will say she has what it takes to have a long career as a politician.

[Swizzle]

I suppose the only thing you can do is not vote for her.

Wrong, inaction is bad choice. There exists a better choices for the non-supporters.

Just as voting is a choice made heard or active participation....those who don't vote for a candidate can make heard their "nay-votes" heard by speaking out against the candidate or funding the opposition. Sitting back and just not voting for the person isn't a good solution....action, not inaction is necessary from both sides.

edit: grammar

Edited April 16, 2012 by Swizzle

[HercDude]

So what would it look like if she released her FEF to the public? Lots of people have demanded to see the military records of vets who have run for office when someone questions the quality of their service. If all the stories are true, shouldn't she have some Q3s in there - something that would verify the caller's accusations and discredit her? Or did politics take care of that too?

[busdriver]

No it wouldn't. Passing min standards does not equal excelling or showing anything approaching leadership. If they meet the min, fine but that doesn't mean they get to brag about what they've done without someone calling them on their shit. If multiple A-10 patches have said she wasn't all that impressive I'm inclined to believe them.

FWIW I'm not saying she needs to be a bad ass pilot to be a good representative, it's the fact that she's trying to link the two herself and she apparently lacked the former.

[HeloDude]

Results of the primary should be in at 8pm PT. Here seems to be a decent site to watch the returns. And for my liberal friends, here is a link to politico who will also have the primary results.

[SurelySerious]

Results of the primary should be in at 8pm PT. Here seems to be a decent site to watch the returns. And for my liberal friends, here is a link to politico who will also have the primary results.

I suppose this would be an official source, if there were any results present. Maybe in a bit. Pima County Elections

Edited April 18, 2012 by SurelySerious

[Guest]

Dodged a bullet, Kelly wins.

Standby for some sort of challenge based on a bullshit victim status discrimination lawsuit from McKaching.