Does it ever become fun again?

[Vetter]

A question to the old hats, especially the fighter dudes and former FAIPs:

Does flying ever become fun again?

[Guest rotorhead]

Never had an "unfun" flight. 20 years, no autopilot. All fun.

[brabus]

Seriously, how is flying not fun? I know I haven't been there yet (UPT), but still, flying a T-6/T-37 is a billion times better than flying what the average stud has before that (172, cherokee, etc). Any examples Vetter?...I'm honestly curious on this one. Even if stressful, flying in UPT can't be ALL bad.

[Champ Kind]

Originally posted by brabus:

Even if stressful, flying in UPT can't be ALL bad.

Flying is a blast. Being a FAIP would effin' suck.

[brabus]

Personally I think it'll be fun...yes stressful and probably will have some times where I'm just pissed at myself, but overall, I think it'll be fun. Hopefully I'm not walking into this with the wrong outlook, but I don't think I am.

[Ram]

I too have treaded the burnout line just a bit.

If I actually got to fly more (that's "fly," not "take notes while someone else flies"), I'd feel a little better.

The days I get to actually DO SOMETHING in the jet make me happy. Tomorrow, I fly with a dude who's on his 3rd attempt to pass a formation pre-solo checkout. If he passes, we'll go to the area solo v solo (I'll be T-3 support). Now THAT will be exciting...trying to stay alive, that is...

I'm sure it gets better. I mean...I'll go the merge SOMEDAY in the future. Sigh...

Nice thread, Vetter. I'll see you at FAIPAPALOOZA '06.

[Vetter]

Okay, let me clarify a little bit. I have a blast flying (most of the time) but all the other bullshit takes ALL the fun out of it.

Unfun Examples:

1.) Puking in the backseat on the second ride of the day when it's 100 degrees outside, no time for lunch, and flying with a person who has no concept of smooth, precise control inputs.

2.) Waking up at 4 AM so I can go in and hear the same exact weather briefing followed by a painful standup.

3.) Getting pulled aside by some Lt Col who blames me for being a shitty flight lead, not breifing like a 2000 hour fighter pilot, and not being given the opportunity to be a wingman. (Like I have choices)

4.) Seeing some guy who struggled through get a Viper, then wash out of IFF because our leadership didn't have the balls to give him a BUFF.

5.) Gradebook checks that take no shit...3 hours. This on top of trying to keep up with the Snack Bar and flying twice a day, everyday.

6.) TIMS!

7.) No notice checkrides.

8.) The leadership thinking you are a nuisance to the squadron for being FAIPed, then holding that fighter on stick like a carrot so you don't slack off. (Is a BUFF really that bad?)

9.) Dating one girl from the W, having it go bad, then being in the doghouse it with EVERY OTHER GIRL with a 50 mile radius.

Okay, those are the bad examples...now, I guess I need to think of the good examples:

1.) Cancelling IFR over the Grand Canyon coming into Vegas.

2.) 1 v 1 solo CT.

3.) 4 Ship Fly By for a funeral at Arlington National Cemetery.

4.) Seeing a student finally get it.

5.) Seeing a student you sent to checkride get a Excellent while the student the LT Col sent UNSATs. (Shitty for the stud)

6.) Seeing a student get an assignment they deserve.

7.) Key West.

8.) San Diego.

9.) DC

10.) Destin

11.) Phoenix

Okay, okay...I guess I answered my own question. If I only had to fly and not do any queep...life would be perfect. Are there any queepless flying jobs out there?

[HuggyU2]

Vetter,

Flying with others that are great people and great pilots can really improve your situation. I've been fortunate to be in an environment where, even though the day-to-day grind can be long, I look forward to showing up in the squadron each and every day.

If you are not in that kind of environment, keep looking. It will reset your love of aviation.

[Guest pcampbell]

Hey Vetter, I feel for you being a FAIP and all. I don't know what it would be like, I don't think I would've liked it even though I contemplated it.

I didn't have any fun flying at all (PPC, UPT, IFF), until I started flying the A-10. Now, every sortie is fun. I'm still in the FTU, so I don't know the pain of squadron ops. I'm having a blast right now though.

[Bergman]

You guys are KILLING me here! Are you saying that flying a twin-turbine aerobatic aircraft, for free isn't any fun?

I think ya'll need to take a step back and remember what it was like to be that 18-22 year old college kid "that would do ANYTHING to fly jets". Hopefully that will put things back in perspective.

[Guest Tony71]

a stick and throttle is a heck of alot better than a mouse and keyboard anyday!

[ClearedHot]

Vetter...time for some medicine.

Okay, okay...I guess I answered my own question. If I only had to fly and not do any queep...life would be perfect. Are there any queepless flying jobs out there?

I am really tired of the “if I only had to fly routine”. I guess I am getting older and I see the crap that good dudes on the staffs have to put up with to keep people flying airplanes. I am saying everyone should work on the Airstaff or some paper-pusher job, but we are all officers and we have a responsibility to try and keep OUR USAF going in the right direction. What would it be like as pilots if we just sat in the cockpit our entire career and let someone else determine the future of our USAF? The pencil necked geeks would drive this train even further into the ground. Instead a few good dudes (myself not included), are taking one for the team and trying to do what is right while a few other whine about not getting to fly their entire career…utter crap in my opinion.

This afternoon when you crawl in that jet and climb to 30,000’, drop your mask for a second and look at yourself in the mirror and remember you are flying that mission today not just for the student in the front seat, but also for chucklemelons like me who spent 18 hours yesterday trying to save a small piece of the USAF.

Off my soapcontainer.

[ 05. April 2006, 09:55: Message edited by: ClearedHot ]

[Guest TheBurt]

Seriously, God bless those like CH that are taking it for the team. I hope and pray that one day every Colonel and General will have wings on their chest, like the good ole days.

Now for the good news, I'm in the guard (not AGR or a Technician), and all I do is fly, so to answer Vetter's question, yes there are a few jobs out there that let you fly. Oh yes, btw, it's fun!!

[Guest F16PilotMD]

Originally posted by Vetter:

Are there any queepless flying jobs out there?

Sure. My friend flies a Cessna 172 for traffic obs for local radio stations. All he does is fly. Everyday. Twice a day. No paperwork, no hassles, no nothing. Just flies. He eats mac-n-cheese every night and would KILL to do what you do.

There are sh*tty, thankless, bullsh*t jobs everywhere. The queep gets worse with every promotion. I'll trade your backseat sortie with Lt. Rugburn for my 12 OPRs and the like.

[Guest Hoser]

Being a FAIP doesn't suck. The queep associated with the job, whether it's a gradebook check for a FAIP, writing OPR's for the Flt/CC or attedning Thursday meeting hell days as the ADO, the queep just had many different shapes.

As a 2LT I was a 4 ship flight lead in the T-38 leading around 3 other aircraft, 2 of which has solo students flying them. I was responsible for their training and their safety. I got over 1,000 hrs in the 3 years and got as close to the 4 corners of the CONUS as the leadership would allow. Nothing on the jet it TS, so all you need is 8K feet and a govt fuel contract. Even the start carts could be borrowed from an airline that fly's DC-9 / MD-80's (yes, I've done in). I would kill to be able to take my Strike Pig into Boston Logan like I did the T-38 and visit the fam over 4th of July weekend.

Any assignment it what you make of it. I my choice was ALO to Iraq or go teach T-37's, I would take the Tweet in a heartbeat.

Hoser

[Guest dtfl]

The "we-hate-aircrew" mentality that is VERY obvious in the USAF today

AMEN to that! The worst was the base support in the AOR after 9-11 when we were trying to fight the war..they acted like we shot their dog when we asked to get our ECU fixed after it went TU on a 110 deg day. If we flyers complained and disregarded our job like some support folks I have encoutnered it would be akin to blowing off a TOT or CT?!?!?

I respect every AFSC in the AF - but it IS called the "AIR....FORCE"

From the end of the pointy thing to the dude driving the bus, everyone has a job to do and is in a support role at some time or another. Just do it.

Dammit...CH see what you did!?!?!

[ 07. April 2006, 01:06: Message edited by: dtfl ]

[Light Chop]

I agree with the posts that complain of apathy in non-flying career fields in the GENERAL sense (whose primary responsibility is to support aircrew - or the "mission" in the bigger sense). However, as a former shoeclerk (acquisition officer who was at the ass end of the spear; yet worked to directly support aircrew - i.e. give Link 16 for the fighter folks or BLOS to the bomber dudes (those who have worked with it know what I am talking about) please give people you haven;t had a run in with the benefit of the doubt. I've seen both sides...and as an acquisition officer, nothing turned me more bitter towards aircrew (a person who I was so desperately trying to become) than those who didn't know me or what I was trying to do to help them - ***** or complain to me. They became nothing more than a prime example of something that I did NOT want to be should I be fortunate enough to become a pilot. And now as a pilot, I still try my best to keep my promise (unless that above mentioned apathy kicks in and there is absolutely no excuse for being stupid).

Give people a chance until you know personally they dont't give a f---. Not ALL shoeclerk folks suck. From the outside, most pilots are viewed as pompous asses...prove 'em wrong until they f- you over.

[Guest KoolKat]

"prove 'em wrong until they f- you over."

I liked everything you said right up until that.

I'm willing to prove them wrong, but not at the expense of gettin f- over.

f- us over, your f- the mish over. no. That's not ok.

Other than that...I agree with you.

BENDY

[Light Chop]

Bendy-

Totally agree with your counterpoint-

"but not at the expense of gettin f- over"

Agreed- We shouldn't take it in the exhaust before raising a fit. Let me clarify the last sentence, if i may.

I'm just asking people (some - not all - aircrew) not to kick doors down, guns-a-blazin before they dismiss the posibility that the person they're talking to is actually willing to help them.

[Guest KoolKat]

Roger, Chop.

Back to Vetter's thread...

BENDY

[Steve Davies]

As an outsider... It's interesting to note that on the board there is one thread that states explicitly and by implication that it would be nice if only pilots made the rank of General; and another concurrent thread blasting non-flying members of the air force for apathy.

If the former attitude is prevalent in the Air Force, then can you really expect the latter not to follow closely? I am sure that this is a huge over-simplification of matters, but as an outsider, I wonder if it is one of the causes?

[dmeg130]

Good point Steve...

To rephrase, I think it's important that all career fields have an opportunity for advancement to GO -- even those of us in bastard child airframes feel under-represented a lot.

What torques the ops world off are those who have been so insulated by their exec positions and being SOS cadre that they have NO IDEA AT ALL what the AF is doing on a daily basis in OEF/OIF. They've never deployed (maybe in a support position at the Deid), and they feel that their little feifdom, whether it be finance, personnel, whatever, is the most critical cog in the AF and that their Friday training shutdown at noon is more important than getting a crew deploying on Monday their orders/Mobility bags/updating DEERS, etc.

For as much focus as we're putting on "Army" PT and convoy/ground fighting, we sure aren't putting any more on supporting the war fighter. THAT'S our beef.

And Vetter... remember the day you got those things put on your chest? All worth it, my man.

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by Light Chop:

I agree with the posts that complain of apathy in non-flying career fields in the GENERAL sense (whose primary responsibility is to support aircrew - or the "mission" in the bigger sense). However, as a former shoeclerk (acquisition officer who was at the ass end of the spear; yet worked to directly support aircrew - i.e. give Link 16 for the fighter folks or BLOS to the bomber dudes (those who have worked with it know what I am talking about) please give people you haven;t had a run in with the benefit of the doubt. I've seen both sides...and as an acquisition officer, nothing turned me more bitter towards aircrew (a person who I was so desperately trying to become) than those who didn't know me or what I was trying to do to help them - ***** or complain to me. They became nothing more than a prime example of something that I did NOT want to be should I be fortunate enough to become a pilot. And now as a pilot, I still try my best to keep my promise (unless that above mentioned apathy kicks in and there is absolutely no excuse for being stupid).

Give people a chance until you know personally they dont't give a f---. Not ALL shoeclerk folks suck. From the outside, most pilots are viewed as pompous asses...prove 'em wrong until they f- you over.

I can see both sides of this argument. As an operator, I am grateful I had the opportunity to get my wings, that being said, I busted my ass to get them. Humility is difficult to gauge, I don’t walk around saying I am a pilot please stand to the side of the hallway when I pass…HOWEVER, for folks that have risked their lives and flown into harms way….to get shot at, to shoot back, and to survive, life and service take on a different perspective. I can’t help but look on with distain when I see a gum-shoe get all bent out of shape over a staff summary sheet. Maybe I am jaded, but I have a lot more respect for someone who puts their pink fleshy arse on the line, than for someone who has never even been TDY out of the continental U.S. It’s human nature.

BTW before I start feeling all gushy about the “shoe clerks”, take a look at the latest promotion statistics…being a pilot is not necessarily good for your career. The Pilots had the second lowest selection rate to O-5, While Support officers had the highest. Acquisition officers by LAW have to be promoted at a rate equal to or higher than the rest of the USAF.

I know we are all on the same team, but the shoe-clerk group hug is going to have to wait until I get back from my XXth deployment to Af-crap-istan.

[Steve Davies]

dmeg

Thanks for educating this civilian .

[Bergman]

Originally posted by dmeg130:

they feel that their little feifdom, whether it be finance, personnel, whatever, is the most critical cog in the AF and that their Friday training shutdown at noon is more important than getting a crew deploying on Monday their orders/Mobility bags/updating DEERS, etc.

SHACK! There is nothing worse that being TDY for 90+ days (sleeping on a cot, 100 yard walk to the shitter, chow hall, etc) and then getting home, filling out your travel voucher the same day you arrive home, driving all the way to finance...to find out the f_ckers are "closed for training" at 1300 on a Friday with the lights out and doors locked. With all the training they do, you might hope your voucher would be correct more than half the time.

Or how about your wife trying to get a new ID card a week before you deploy for 120 days. She takes not 1, not 2, but 3 afternoons off from work to drive to the base and attempt to get a new ID before it expires. All 3 times the MPF customer service counter is closed, the machine is broke, "the system is down today", or there isn't anyone around who can operate it in the first place. I shouldn't have to call the Squadron Commander personally to complain...and have him call the section OIC...who calls the NCOIC...who finally makes the ID card.

The stories are endless...so the bottom line is this: shoe clerks - DO YOUR F_CKING JOB! We as aircrew are expected to do ours every day, during any weather, any hour of the night or day, for months on end. Why can't we expect the same quality of work from our "support" community???