CSO to Pilot

[bottlerocket]

So I sit here now in Pensacola at UCT (do they even have an official name for this training yet?) and I feel its time to really start figuring out which road to take that would best get me to UPT. I have roughly 150 hours of flight time, instrument rating, 98 PCSM, etc, but a crappy semester from my freshman year is what killed it for me (that, and a brand new PAS at my det for the semester of boards, but I can hardly shift even a majority of the blame).

As of right now I'm 26 and will be finishing up UCT later this year and thats (hopefully) where the process starts. I, like many on this forum, am dedicated to making it to UPT. I spoke with my Flt/CC about this because he went through the same deal. He asked what I thought I would be, a pilot, a fighter pilot, or a pilot who flew fighters (he drove the A10). I wanted to make that snap decision and say fighter pilot, I mean who wouldn't? Its badass and that childhood dream kind of stuff. But then it occurred to me that even in the T6 I wasn't enjoying it like I should. I absolutely love flying and everything about it, but I don't know if its a control issue or pride or what, but if I'm not the one flying, its just not right to me. I've come to the realization that I would just be a pilot (in answer to his question). I can whole-heartedly say that I would RATHER fly a C-5, KC-135, or whatever is the most opposite end of the spectrum from a fighter, than be a WSO on an F-15E. I'd rather be in control of a heavy than ride in the back of a fighter. Thats not to say I wouldn't prefer flying an F-16 or something of that nature, but hopefully you get my point.

Time to get off my soap box now and get down to it...

Like I said, I'm 26. When I graduate I'll almost be 27. That scares the crap out of me due to the age limit of 30 for starting UPT. Sure there are waivers, but in today's Air Force? Really?

So where can I go from here? I do not want to try to blow my own horn here (sts) but as I sit now I am right near the top of my class and probably have the choice of airframe to go to provided its in the drop. Right now my plan is to go C-130 since that has the shortest FTU so that I can become operational and try to apply to the AD boards right away, instead of going F-15E WSO and having nearly 2 years of follow-on.

So any of you guys out there have any knowledge in this matter? Any idea the earliest possible I can start applying for the boards? Or should I even now start networking at some of the reserve/guard units so I have options on the other end of training? And is there even an option for a switch mid-training? Hell if they ripped me out of UCT today and said I was gonna start UPT in a week and pack my crap and get going I would be at U-Haul within the hour. But thats not happening.

If you've stuck with me this far I appreciate it, and any advice you may have to offer. I just hoped to express my desire to make it to UPT and not come across as some bitter kid who didn't get what he thought he deserved. I want to earn this.

[Disco_Nav963]

UTFSF

And who told you C-130s have the shortest FTU btw? E-3s and E-8s have them beat by a significant margin.

[Guest]

Never take a bad deal with the promise of a good deal follow on.

Mudhen. Do it.

[Fuzz]

Of all the navs and other cross-flow guys at UPT, it took them a good 3-4 years to get selected. The AF isn't going to send you to Nav school to turn around and then send you to UPT after you finish your FTU and move to your operational squadron. Most everyone I talk with said they work their butts off to be the best at their job their first assignment and then applied. Everyone that is a cross-flow from other career fields are junior Captains, so I would say you have a little while before you have a chance.

[Guest Grind]

You should fly helicopters.

[spaceman]

I thought you had to do your job for like 3 years before you can apply to switch jobs? Maybe that's for non rated officers applying to go rated, I'm not sure.

But if that is the case, I would agree with Rainman and say just take the most bad ass thing you can get now and make the best of it. If you really don't think you'll be satisfied sitting in the back of a frickin strike eagle dropping bombs on shit, I think you're just being greedy bro

Edited March 9, 2012 by spaceman

[nsplayr]

I absolutely love flying and everything about it, but I don't know if its a control issue or pride or what, but if I'm not the one flying, its just not right to me. I've come to the realization that I would just be a pilot (in answer to his question). I can whole-heartedly say that I would RATHER fly a C-5, KC-135, or whatever is the most opposite end of the spectrum from a fighter, than be a WSO on an F-15E. I'd rather be in control of a heavy than ride in the back of a fighter.

Have fun being a copilot! Seriously dude, I get that you love flying but from where you sit now, at the CSO schoolhouse, you either need to bury those feelings deep or get your mind right that you are not a pilot, will not be a pilot in the very near future, and that other people are gonna fly you around for a little while. Buy your own plane and fly on the weekend, that's great, but you need to learn to accept that you're gonna be a CSO and you need to be the best damn CSO you can be if you want a shot at UPT down the line. If you can't handle that you need to find a different path in life. And like I said...if you eventually go to UPT and get heavies, you will be a copilot for several years anyways, letting someone else fly the jet is something you need to be OK with.

Right now my plan is to go C-130 since that has the shortest FTU so that I can become operational and try to apply to the AD boards right away, instead of going F-15E WSO and having nearly 2 years of follow-on.

Like Rainman said, don't pick something you don't want because you think it will work out for you better later. Look at all the jets available to you, choose the one you think sounds the best (mission/location/community/whatever) and take it. You can get UPT from just about anything if you're good at it and have a good attitude, don't take a bad deal now because you think you'll be able to trick-fuck the age waiver system.

FWIW we've sent about 3 folks to UPT from the U-28 community so far and they all were both shit-hot dudes who were great CSOs, and they were also who paid their dues in terms of deployments, shitty jobs back at home, and time on station. If you arrive at your gaining unit and immediately want to start applying to UPT you will get shit on by the other CSOs who are out there hacking the mish.

Good luck and keep your head down, keep working hard, and you can make your dreams happen, just try not to get ahead of yourself.

Edited March 9, 2012 by nsplayr

[ExBoneOSO]

So I sit here now in Pensacola at UCT (do they even have an official name for this training yet?) and I feel its time to really start figuring out how to graduate UCT which road to take that would best get me to UPT.

FIFY...seriously, nsplayer's comment was spot on. If becoming a pilot is your goal, you have to kick ass now as a CSO to have any kind of chance. Go with the mission that interests you, and you'll succeed.

[Guest Mostpeople]

All these guys are spot on, you are a CSO, and the only way to EVER HOPE of getting accepted to UPT on active duty for you now -- is to be the BEST CSO you can be. I have been exactly where you are right now, wondering how to make it happen. And I had A-holes telling me to be a better CSO too, it may not be what you want to hear (at the time i didn't want to hear it), it is however the reality. Without exception, every year I saw the BEST CSO's in the wing get picked up.. logical conclusion was to be the best. open those doors for yourself and you will feel a sense of accomplishment. On my last chance to apply, I was rated #1 from my squadron -- maybe the wing who knows, who cares. The point is I was sh1t hot as a CSO, I know nothing about putting the plane where it needs to be on parameters, that's pilot business and I left it at that. However I did know how to do my job better then anyone in my peer group, and better than any of the applicants, and that is what got me selected. It certainly wasn't scores on the AFOQT, or having a PPL, or my GPA. It was being the best in my wing. So, take it for what its worth, but what these guys are telling you, is 100% accurate.

/Bragging I know, but he needs to hear it from someone who has done it and been there.

Life is what is happening while you wait bro, learn to love CSO, choose a plane you want to fly and go enjoy it. If you get picked up later on for UPT, awesome, if not you can still have a great career from the back seat as well, plus in certain airframes you are 10x more involved in the mission than the pilots ever are, that's a cool thing a lot of CSO's don't understand.

I'm about to go to ABM training in a few months. What I've heard for us rated guys is that we have to wait 2.5 years after we are winged to apply to the AD board

This is not true, you have to have 2.5 years of service from the date you are winged, you can apply earlier and your class date will just be later, as long as its within the scope of the board which if I recall correctly extends to the end of the Fiscal Year... but don't quote me on that.

Had a guy PCS in, and appied with about 1.5 years on station, you have to serve two right? Got picked up and his PCS date was I believe 2-3 weeks after the 2 year mark, and his class date worked out with his winging date as well. Lucky guy, basically min time for everything, but he was the exception not the rule. My case has been the opposite, I ran right up the TAFCSD limit.

You can control only so much, the rest is being at the right place at the right time, and of course, recognizing it helps too!

Edited March 10, 2012 by Mostpeople

[Guest]

I was rated #1 from my squadron -- maybe the wing

The point is I was sh1t hot as a CSO

I did know how to do my job better then anyone in my peer group, and better than any of the applicants, and that is what got me selected.

It certainly wasn't scores on the AFOQT, or having a PPL, or my GPA. It was being the best in my wing.

/Bragging I know, but he needs to hear it from someone who has done it and been there.

I wouldn't call that bragging. I would simply say you are pretty confident that you are better than everyone else you know at being a CSO.

Interesting change over the past couple days. Especially considering the enormous amount of teen angst I saw a couple days ago before you got picked up for UPT. Kind of a remarkable Clark Kent > phone booth > Superman total confidence transformation, actually.

Speaking of being the Miss Universe of CSOs...just curious, is there a way to score CSOs other than a person's opinion?

I wonder, do the other CSOs in the wing know you think you are way better than they are at being a CSO?

These quotes would go over great on day one of UPT when someone gets their hands on them. Not that anyone could triangulate something like that.

They also need to be saved for a naming ceremony, if you graduate and there is such a thing wherever you end up.

in certain airframes you are 10x more involved in the mission than the pilots ever are, that's a cool thing a lot of CSO's don't understand.

Interesting.

BTW, what jets are those, just so everyone knows what to avoid?

Wouldn't it suck to be a CSO in one of those jets, go to UPT and end up back in that jet as a pilot only to have a worse job than you had before UPT?

Damn.

Had a guy PCS in, and appied with about 1.5 years on station, you have to serve two right? Got picked up and his PCS date was I believe 2-3 weeks after the 2 year mark, and his class date worked out with his winging date as well. Lucky guy, basically min time for everything, but he was the exception not the rule. My case has been the opposite, I ran right up the TAFCSD limit.

Wait, that dude who min ran his CSO time and got picked up in front of you was lucky and your situation where it took you max time to become the best of the best was all skill based?

I'm confused.

You can control only so much, the rest is being at the right place at the right time, and of course, recognizing it helps too!

Wait, timing is everything? I thought being the best CSO in your wing was everything.

I'm all mixed up now.

I guess I'll just go with work your ass off and be good at your job so that you are in a position to take advantage of good timing.

[spaceman]

You're in good form today Rainman.

[Guest]

Noted.

[Guest Mostpeople]

I've got to admit I am rather impressed, I also have to admit I know how to pick my battles, and I know when I am out-matched.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Mostpeople

[bottlerocket]

So this thread took a turn for strange...

Of all the navs and other cross-flow guys at UPT, it took them a good 3-4 years to get selected. The AF isn't going to send you to Nav school to turn around and then send you to UPT after you finish your FTU and move to your operational squadron. Most everyone I talk with said they work their butts off to be the best at their job their first assignment and then applied. Everyone that is a cross-flow from other career fields are junior Captains, so I would say you have a little while before you have a chance.

I guess that kinda sucks for me then. By the time I'm in my MWS for 3-4 years, I will be over 30 and beyond the cutoff for UPT. That was the whole point of this post to find out what else is possible. Hell even a reserve/guard spot, whether part or full time, would be just fine for me. I have every intention of working my butt off here and at my FTU. Its not like I'm slacking off at all, I'm working hard and taking every bit of info in that I can. I am just trying to find out other's experiences beyond "work hard". I'm speaking of other avenues to accomplish my goal or any other advice.

You should fly helicopters.

Those terrify me. But honestly, I'd do it if it means flying.

I thought you had to do your job for like 3 years before you can apply to switch jobs? Maybe that's for non rated officers applying to go rated, I'm not sure.

But if that is the case, I would agree with Rainman and say just take the most bad ass thing you can get now and make the best of it. If you really don't think you'll be satisfied sitting in the back of a frickin strike eagle dropping bombs on shit, I think you're just being greedy bro

Greedy? Gotcha, ok well if I am ever an Eagle WSO and you happen to be flying some heavy, gimme a call and I'll trade you.

I do not see it as being greedy. I see it as having a goal and knowing what makes you happy. We only have one life to live, if you're not doing what you're passionate about, you're wrong. Thats what I'm trying to get at. Sorry if I'd rather be in the front seat than the back. You're entitled to your opinion.

FIFY...seriously, nsplayer's comment was spot on. If becoming a pilot is your goal, you have to kick ass now as a CSO to have any kind of chance. Go with the mission that interests you, and you'll succeed.

They are all "interesting" in the way that intro to chem was interesting back in college. Its ooohs and ahhhhs, but its not the "holy crap this is amazing $*** that I want to do every waking moment for the rest of my life and sleep when I die" stuff. Thats how flying feels to me lol.

I really appreciate all of the input here, but the sad fact is like I said previously... after finishing up here I do not have the years left to be able to apply to UPT. What really brought this on is me starting a family, getting married soon (no kids in the near future), etc. I am trying to think down the road at what happens next. Sure I'm happy as long as I'm in a jet, but being a CSO won't enable me to fly later on if the air force decides my services are no longer needed or something. Its not like I can go to the airlines or a charter company and be like "hey, I used to be a back-seater. Can I be a nav for you?" Yea, we know how that would turn out. It might be looking at the negative side of things, but I'm sure those of you with families can at least understand my perspective. Thats why I'm asking for advice specifically regarding my age and timeframe I have to get into UPT.

[nsplayr]

I guess that kinda sucks for me then. By the time I'm in my MWS for 3-4 years, I will be over 30 and beyond the cutoff for UPT.

It might be possible...I know a guy who went sooner. Keep your dreams in mind, but...

Greedy? Gotcha, ok well if I am ever an Eagle WSO and you happen to be flying some heavy, gimme a call and I'll trade you.

Lose this attitude ASAP. No one at Pensacola gives a shit that you really, really wanted to be a pilot and neither will anyone at your gaining unit. Like I said before, if you show up as a brand new CSO and are only interested in being a pilot you're experience interacting with other CSOs will probably not be great.

They are all "interesting" in the way that intro to chem was interesting back in college. Its ooohs and ahhhhs, but its not the "holy crap this is amazing $*** that I want to do every waking moment for the rest of my life and sleep when I die" stuff. Thats how flying feels to me lol.

The grass is always greener man, there are ups and downs in every job. There are great CSO missions out there, when it comes time to pick concentrate on those rather than what will lead you to the front seat fastest.

Sure I'm happy as long as I'm in a jet...

It sure doesn't sound that way. The biggest thing holding you back from what you want might well be your attitude and that's one of the easiest things to fix. Fix it.

If you can't live with being a CSO for minimum of 3-4 years and probably for the rest of your career considering your age, do not complete CSO training, do not pass GO, do not collect $200. If you're really so hard up to be a pilot, DOR, do your 4-6 years as a comm officer or whatever, get out and become a commercial pilot.

Edited March 18, 2012 by nsplayr

[bottlerocket]

Lose this attitude ASAP. No one at Pensacola gives a shit that you really, really wanted to be a pilot and neither will anyone at your gaining unit. Like I said before, if you show up as a brand new CSO and are only interested in being a pilot you're experience interacting with other CSOs will probably not be great.

Thats one of the most unfortunate things ever.

The grass is always greener man, there are ups and downs in every job. There are great CSO missions out there, when it comes time to pick concentrate on those rather than what will lead you to the front seat fastest.

Kinda goes against the whole point of my post.

It sure doesn't sound that way. The biggest thing holding you back from what you want might well be your attitude and that's one of the easiest things to fix. Fix it.

So you're saying if I'm happy with what I'm doing and not focus on being a pilot, it will magically happen?

If you can't live with being a CSO for minimum of 3-4 years and probably for the rest of your career considering your age, do not complete CSO training, do not pass GO, do not collect $200. If you're really so hard up to be a pilot, DOR, do your 4-6 years as a comm officer or whatever, get out and become a commercial pilot.

Wow, some people here are really good at completely and totally destroying dreams. So in your opinion there is 100% no way for me to have a shot, is that what you're getting at?

Because I find that hard to believe. With the options like Palace Chase, AD boards, etc, there has to be some way to get in to UPT from where I am or where I'll be in the future before I turn 30

[Guest]

Some people just can't face the brutal reality and make a decision based on what they see.

The guy wants a magic answer that doesn't exist.

He's been given excellent advice which he chooses to rail against like a two year old in the midst of a tantrum.

No amount of coaching can correct that.

Game over.

[bottlerocket]

Some people just can't face the brutal reality and make a decision based on what they see.

The guy wants a magic answer that doesn't exist.

He's been given excellent advice which he chooses to rail against like a two year old in the midst of a tantrum.

No amount of coaching can correct that.

Game over.

No I'm not looking for a magic answer. I'm just looking for something that isn't the same thing that in reality gives me nothing. I don't mentally have one foot out the door of UCT, I am just trying to plan ahead and anticipate what is down the road. Yes I understand I need to do well here, yes I know I need to do well at my FTU and at my MWS, there is no reason to talk down to me. If you feel the urge to do so again, I really suggest you take it elsewhere. I really don't have time for useless ignorant posts such as this.

I made the mistake of not planning for the future when I was in school and when I realized my mistake, it was too little too late at the time, there was nothing I could do that could alter my course and get me to UPT. I do not want to make the same mistake twice. So that being said, and other than the glaringly obvious advice, I am curious as to other's actual experiences. Not rumors or other BS.

I was told about a year ago by an F-15E pilot that he tracked WSO and upon arriving immediately went to UPT and that roughly 1 in 4 had the same opportunity. I am not sure if this sort of thing happens any longer, but things like this is what I'm looking for, trying to gauge my odds of making it. If there is a zero-percent chance that I will make it doing it the "normal" way, i.e. 3-4 years in my MWS, apply to the AD boards and pray for a waiver, etc, then I would rather go Strike Eagles and hope for UPT from there. Its those sort of things that are other options separate from the "hey put on a smile and enjoy your fate" sort of thing.

And yes, Rainman, I can face a brutal truth. But there is no brutal truth here, only rumors and speculation.

[old crow]

bunch of quibbling words

You're right and Rainman/nsplayr are full of shit. They are crushing your dreams with their lies and bitterness and you shouldn't take it. Here's what you should do:

1. Memorize this: "Brevity is the soul of wit." It might help you out in your sure-to-be successful military career.

2. Disregard all the bullshit advice that folks with experience give you. You're a 26 y/o commissioned officer and know more than anyone else.

3. SIE. Your best path to being a pilot is to immediately tell your Flt/CC that CSO-stuff is beneath you and that you're not going to settle for being "second best."

[OregonHerc]

I really suggest you take it elsewhere. I really don't have time for useless ignorant posts such as this.

This is about to be the highlight of my week.

[magnetfreezer]

No I'm not looking for a magic answer. I'm just looking for something that isn't the same thing that in reality gives me nothing. I don't mentally have one foot out the door of UCT, I am just trying to plan ahead and anticipate what is down the road. Yes I understand I need to do well here, yes I know I need to do well at my FTU and at my MWS, there is no reason to talk down to me. If you feel the urge to do so again, I really suggest you take it elsewhere. I really don't have time for useless ignorant posts such as this.

I made the mistake of not planning for the future when I was in school ... I am curious as to other's actual experiences.

And yes, Rainman, I can face a brutal truth. But there is no brutal truth here, only rumors and speculation.

Here's some brutal truth: if you read the VSP/RIF/many other threads on here, the AF can't even figure out how many hundreds of thousands of people it'll need next year, much less the number of WSO to pilot transitions in 2 years. Nobody on this board will give you a percentage because not even AFPC knows. Strike eagle guys go through the same boards as everyone else as well. The best method of planning for the future is to do what everyone has been advising you; since timing is everything, being the best you can be keeps the door open to jump on the opportunities when they pop up, whether it be UPT, WIC, TPS (yes WSOs can do the last 2 although they got their jobs due to poor grades), or just the sweet liason tour in Germany.

[Beaver]

Never trust a WSO who doesn't wear glasses.

[Guest]

I get it, you want facts.

I have a fact for you that you can actually use to make a decision and take appropriate action:

Your SA is too low to become a pilot. That's a fact.

[HerkNav]

Bottlerocket,

First off be grateful that you are in the operational community at all. I spent 5 years of my life in CE and while I didn't completely despise mission support it was not where I wanted to be. I worked hard and applied to get into any flying program(Pilot, CSO, ABM) and was accepted into the CSO program and will never scoff at it. I wanted to be a pilot above everything else but the AF decided this was best for me and I was more than happy to take the position.

There was another individual in my flight at Pensacola who had the same experience as me but he still wanted to pursue the pilot program. He was 28 when he started the CSO program. He made his intentions known to leadership and tried just about every angle to get in to UPT while still enrolled in UCT. He even put together an application package and submitted it. It never left Pensacola...

Don't slap the AF in the face for a good thing that has been given to you...it could be worse. There are waivers that you may be able to get for a Guard/Reserve unit. From what I have seen from the guy I know who was trying to do the same thing as you no units will really even talk to you until you finish UCT and the schoolhouse for your MWS (whatever you end up getting.)

If you have specific questions feel free to PM me. But as for the goings on down at P-Cola; do well in academics and the flightline and keep your head down. If you make your intentions public the word will get around and it won't be looked upon very favorably....

Cheers

Edit: spelling

Edited March 26, 2012 by HerkNav

[Fuzz]

Don't slap the AF in the face for a good thing that has been given to you...it could be worse.

Best advice yet (no offense Rainman).