Enlisted Marine to AF Pilot?

[Guest Turbine0512]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, and I'm interested in learning more about becoming an Air Force pilot via OTS.

Here are some stats:

I'm an active duty enlisted Marine with 5 years of F/A-18 experience. I'm getting out honorably with a Secret Clearance and excellent health. I'm about a year and half away from earning my bachelor's degree in Aviation Technical Management from Embry Riddle with a 3.8 GPA. I have an Airframe and Powerplants Certificate (A&P), as well as about 50 hours of flight time as a Private Pilot.

Some setbacks:

I have a misdemeanor for criminal damage to property on my record from when I was 18 (I'm 24 now). However, I'm in the process of getting it expunged. As I mentioned, I still was able to get a Secret Clearance without any problems.

I have 20/30 near vision, correctable to 20/20 and 20/40 distant correctable to 20/20

My blood pressure is a little on the high side (138/80 at times), but I'm taking measures to reduce that number. Other than that, my blood work is excellent.

I have 10 tattoos (totally legal and documented by the Marine Corps), only 3 of which are visible in PT gear. One is an American Flag (right forearm), a spiderweb on my left elbow, and a quote on my right elbow. They're all smaller than half the palm of my hand.

Given the above, what are my chances for getting selected for a pilot slot? I think my military and aviation experience along my GPA, would make me pretty competitive, but I also see a few things that might be disqualifying (?) (tattoos, eye sight, criminal record).

Assuming I'm able to acquire a First Class Flight Physical, how is someone guaranteed a pilot slot versus a WSO or navigator slot?

Thanks!

[donkey]

Welcome to the board.

When you submit your OTS package, you can specially only mark "Pilot" as your first/only choice, which then guarantees you pilot if you're selected.

Secondly, how did you on your performance reports in the Marine's, any volunteer experience, and where are you expecting to get some letter of rec's from. So far your grades, flight hours, and prior service are definitely good, as everyone likes to say its a whole person concept. You'll also have to take the AFOQT and TBAS to get a better picture.

I don't think the vision will be a problem as long as its correctable, although you should read up on the med forums here as I haven't kept up with vision waivers in a while. I'm also not sure how much or how bad the misdemeanor would be viewed.

Otherwise, good luck, and if you have any more questions feel free to ask. Hopefully some others can chime in as well and give you their thoughts.

[HiFlyer]

I don't think anything you've said is a significant problem. The misdemeanor might require a "morals waiver" but that is mostly a paperwork review to ensure it isn't a "pattern of conduct" thing. Vison is okay, although there are other vision details that require passage, too (color, depth perception, ect).

I would recommend that you go over the www.AirForceOTS.com web site and sign up there. The site is focused on OTS applicants and all that goes with it. Sign up in the "Introductions" topic and that will allow you to post in the rest of the site. Read older posts in the "Applying for OTS" topic (and others) for a while...almost every question you have has probably been answered numerous times.

Edited March 10, 2012 by HiFlyer

[Guest Turbine0512]

Thanks for the replies and insight. My performance reports are all outstanding and I can easily get letters of recommendation from multiple sources. I will check into the medical forums and the OTS site listed above. Can I take the TBAS and AFOQT tests now?

I didn't realize that you could select 'pilot only' as an option. I always thought that you more or less had to roll the dice. Does that mean I'd be guaranteed a pilot slot if I exceed the requirements?

Edited March 10, 2012 by Turbine0512

[Learjetter]

Nothing is guaranteed. Ever.

[nolandaman]

You can take the TBAS and AFOQT whenever you want, but make sure you look over some study guides so that at the very least you know what to expect.

As was mentioned you put down what positions you are interested in, and then if you are selected they offer you a slot in your order of preference. If pilot is the only option you put down and you get selected high enough that they still have pilot slots, then you are in. There are more posts than you would ever care to read on the site mentioned about the selection process and how it works.

You sound like you would be as competitive as anyone, but do remember it is very competitive so there is no way to know for sure.

[Guest Turbine0512]

Yes, I should know better than to think anything is guaranteed. What else can I do to become more competitive? I was thinking about getting about 100 hours total of flight time including some high performance/complex time. I want to join the Red Cross as well for more volunteer opportunities.

[JakeFSU]

Nothing is guaranteed. Ever.

Truth.

Turbine0512,

I know that you said that you know nothing is guaranteed and I'm not trying to preach that you thought anything was guaranteed. With that said, the moral waiver thing isn't guaranteed until the signatures are on paper. Even if you have support from recruiter/squadron/leadership. I was recently selected for a Guard slot, started processing, but my moral waiver wasn't signed by leadership. In my case, I disclosed everything beforehand and had support of the squadron and the recruiting office. Regardless, upper leadership didn't sign the waiver. Nothing is guaranteed is a very tough lesson to learn.

As you know, disclose everything up front and have all court documents ready. I'm just trying to give you a heads up that getting a moral waiver isn't easy, but (hopefully) not impossible. Good luck.

[guineapigfury]

I know a guy who I went thru OTS who had a morals waiver and a pilot slot, so it can happen. How it works with a "guaranteed" pilot slot is like so:

You get to list up to 3 jobs when you apply for OTS. You can list only one if you want. If you put down only pilot, you will either get picked up for a pilot slot or not at all. I had the chance to talk to a SMSgt who worked in the office that processed OTS applications. His take: Letter of Recommendation from an O-7 or higher will get you in*. This was 2007, so it could have changed since then, but I doubt it.

*When you're at OTS and you see that one assclown who has no business being there, and you and all those around you ask yourselves "How the ###### did this idiot get in?", this is your answer.

[Guest Turbine0512]

O-7? That's interesting. I'm positive I could get letters of rec from E-8, E-9 and probably an O-5, but I don't personally know and O-7s. What about letters from a congressman?

Again, I do appreciate the advice and insight from everyone. I'm sure my questions have all been asked a thousand and one times, so I do appreciate you taking time to respond.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Turbine0512

[HiFlyer]

There are some half truths here. Starting from the simplest...

- The O7 thing is not totally true. First, the O-7 has to know you well from personal involvement and write a strong LOR showing that personal knowledge. Second, the rest of the application has to match the O-7's description. The way they score the package is in several independent sections that are summed to make the final package score. The best LOR in the world won't offset bad scores in the other areas, so if the O-7 says you're incredible, your resume, leadership examples, past accomplishments, etc. need to support the General's statements (and visa versa). The best way to max your LOR score is not a single letter, but four or five strong, well written ones from people who have had supervisory/executive positions (some military, but not necessarily all) and can describe in many ways how you excelled in your efforts. Obviously, if you have such a strong, well written letter, and it is from a General/Flag officer, it can really help the LOR grade.

- Congressmen/high civilian political figures: don't bother unless you know them well and have actually worked with/for them (or they are a close family friend and can relate to your growing up). Standard "He's a good guy." form letters from the typical political leader are worthless without the personal insight and examples. The board considers them as fluff and a waste of paper.

- The AF Fm 56 application now allows you to select up to all four of the rated fields, in preferential order. You can select less than four if you wish, however there's a risk. If you're number 25 on a list of 400 applicants, but put only pilot, and there are only 20 pilot slots (all of whom are above you), you may not get selected for a slot at OTS because your name won't show in the list of volunteers for other fields Keep in mind the board doesn't actually select people for OTS, it only scores the packages and ranks them from 1 to n. That list is then handed to the AFRS personnel people who take the list, and parcel out career field assignments until they are out of slots. How they chose to deal with that issue is purely policy, and they can make the policy any way they choose. The question for you is "How badly do you want an OTS slot?" Are you willing to risk losing a chance at becoming an AF officer because you bet the whole show in being a pilot or nothing else. Only you can make that decision, and it depends on how you feel about the issue of AF Officer or only AF pilot. I've seen it go both ways and there is no clear and "correct" answer. The job of the board is first and foremost to provide for accession of new AF officers, not to select pilots, or CSOs, or whatever.

- "...exceed the requirements." Also keep in mind that technically, everyone who applies and gets to the board meets or exceeds the requirements, or the AF would not accept the application. Its not a question of the requirements...its how well you stack up across the board compared to all the other applicants who meet the requirements. I suspect that on any given board there are two or three times as many people who meet the pilot requirements as there are slots to give them, sometimes more than that. So, the question is not whether you meet or exceed requirements, its how well does the composite score of your entire package (which consists mostly of non-flying things) compare to everyone else, and how many slots are available (again, you can be #10 out of 500 pilot applicants), but if there are only 9 pilot slots, you're out of luck).

- Finally, having a PPL will help, but more hours won't mean much beyond that unless they provide additional ratings and aviation experience(Instrument, commercial, etc) and even that won't provide that much additional help. Again, each scoring catagory can only provide so many points, so once you reach the top of the catagory, you can't get many extra points towards your score. As a reference, on the last two rated boards, the pilot selects were about 50-50 between PPL and no PPL, so don't figure the PPL gives you a guaranteed selection.

Don't let this dissuade you from trying, though. Go for it the best you can. Chances of making it are zero if you don't try.

Edited to correct poor grammer!

Edited March 11, 2012 by HiFlyer

[guineapigfury]

Turbine, listen to the guy above, his gouge is fresher than mine. Good luck, get your degree done and hope you make it.

[Guest Turbine0512]

Thank you again for the advice. I'm going to try my luck. It's important for me to stay in the military, yet progress beyond the enlisted realm.

In the Marines, you choose your preferred job (up to 3), and based on the needs of the Corps, they may just put you where ever and you're still locked into you 4-6 year contract no matter what... So, to ensure I understand this correctly, if I only choose a pilot slot and don't make selection, am I still locked into any commitment with the AF in another job? Or do you just not go to OTS? Are the slots locked in before you go to OTS? This is where I think the MC and AF differs, or perhaps where the O and E differ. At any rate, I'm going to try.

As far as testing, SNAP stated that I could take the TBAS and AFOQT anytime. Would I just go to an AF recruiting office or MEPS to do this? How long are the scores valid for?

Does being married have any negative standing with the board?

Thanks again, and I apologize for asking so many questions.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Turbine0512

[HiFlyer]

"...if I only choose a pilot slot and don't make selection, am I still locked into any commitment with the AF in another job?" No. If you are not selected, you are just another civilian.

"Are the slots locked in before you go to OTS?" If you are selected, you will have an assigned career field. That won't change unless you are somwehow DQ'd (fail some part of the pilot physical, etc.). If so, you will probably be offered another choice, but not always (you could simply be released).

As far as testing, SNAP stated that I could take the TBAS and AFOQT anytime. Would I just go to an AF recruiting office or MEPS to do this? Recruiting office, not MEPS for scheduling the tests. If there is an AFROTC unit near you they might allow you to take the tests with their people...but it's space dependent, and some don't have the TBAS. Call the AFROTC det.

How long are the scores valid for? Forever.

Does being married have any negative standing with the board? No. They don't care and its not a scorable situation.

Edited March 11, 2012 by HiFlyer

[nolandaman]

The other option for taking the AFOQT/TBAS is to find somewhere that will let you take it. As was mentioned ROTC units sometimes have availability, but being a Marine, you do have access to bases, and the AFOQT is often available on bases that you can just call and sign up for. I seem to remember a website that listed all of the different testing locations for the AFOQT and TBAS. I took the AFOQT at Randolph and the TBAS at the ROTC Det at University of North Texas. I set them both up by myself because my recruiter was useless, and I was majorly crunched for time.

In terms of pilot selection, it is similar to the Marine Corps, in that the Marine Corps will guarantee a flying slot before you leave for OCS. The Air Force assigns all jobs before going to OTS, but the Marine Corps only assigns pilots.

[Spur38]

On a slightly different note. What is the deal about previous flight experience, if any? I have a friend that's been told that an FAA private is necessary for Guard UPT true or BS?

Thanks

[HiFlyer]

On a slightly different note. What is the deal about previous flight experience, if any? I have a friend that's been told that an FAA private is necessary for Guard UPT true or BS?

Thanks

Not true (but probably nearly true). Most Guard units get a UPT slot or two allocated from the HQ every year or so, and its paid for in advance by the National Guard Bureau to the active duty (AETC ) account. They don't get the money back, nor an opportunity to send another guy for that slot if the selectee washes out (funding is for that fiscal year only). They are pretty selective about who they send...they want the best possible chance of actually getting a finished product out of the pipeline. Therefore, when they look at applicants, some flying experienced to show you can at least get up and down without puking your brains out or bending the struts can be a major factor. The real answer is that it depends on the unit. Formal requirement, no...but in most cases its a definate plus!

[Guest]

I'm positive I could get letters of rec from E-8, E-9

Probably not worth it for a UPT board. Try to convince the E-9 to get an O-6+ to write something...unless the E-9 wants to mention how sweet you are at tucking your PT shirt in and how you never wear your sunglasses on top of your cranium.

[Ahab]

I was enlisted 5 years in the Marines before I became an Air Force pilot. I took a different route than what you're trying for, however. I served my time in the Marines entirely, got my DD214 then immediatly started college and joined AFROTC as any civilian would. It worked out great for me. If I had to do it all over again I wouldn't change anything - I most certainly wouldn't have tried to balance active duty Marine service and getting a degree (though I just did the same thing in the Air Force with my 'box-checked' masters) and then taking the big-chance of trying to get a pilot slot via OTS.

I recommend at least looking into going the AFROTC route.

[guineapigfury]

Yes, but there is no guarantee of him getting a pilot slot via AFROTC. If you want to serve in one specific job or not at all, OTS is the way to go as that's exactly what you get. He could do 2 or 3 years of ROTC then find out he's going to be a food services officer. Then all his hard work will have been wasted, at least until he gets his cold cuts qual.

[Guest Turbine0512]

I thought about the AFROTC thing, but like Crew Dawg stated, the OTS route would probably be my best interest, especially since I've completed a lot of college already. Would it help having a Masters vs a bachelors on the selection board?

As far as LORs are concerned, I'm going to get one from my Master Sergeant (E-8), my OIC (O-3) and AMO (O-5). I figured that will be better than nothing. I don't know any Colonels or Generals personally, so this will be the best I can do for now anyway.

My only concern is my vision. As stated, it's now about 20/30 on a good day... I can only imagine it getting worse before I'm through with college. I'm taking some vitamins and staying hydrated, but I still wear glasses sometimes. (correctable 20/20). I'm considering LASIK or PRK. I don't know too much about it, though.

[matmacwc]

ANG

[Guest Turbine0512]

Gray, what about it?

[Stitch]

...Starting from the simplest... LOR score is not a single letter, but four or five strong, well written ones from people who have had supervisory/executive positions (some military, but not necessarily all) and can describe in many ways how you excelled in your efforts....

As far as LORs go, since you're an ERAU stud talk to your ERAU Campus' Director of Academic Support especially if they're retired/former military. I personally know three, now former, enlisted guys who went that route and they all got picked for rated slots both active and guard. Not saying that's what sealed the deal, but the Director could speak about both your academic record and possible potential as an officer. Can't hurt and it don't cost nothing. As always, remember; your milage may vary, check with your DAS for more info.

[Guest Turbine0512]

What documents should I hang onto/retrieve from the Marine Corps to bring to an Air Force recruiter? I'm thinking medical and dental records, performance reports, LOR's, military education records (SMART Transcript), MOS related training records, and formal schools. What am I missing?