guineapigfury Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Isn't Ambien/Dex regulated at a higher level (i.e, usage between you and the flight docs since it has to be approved by WG/CC or higher depending on the situation)? I know when I was at a certain poo-pond having location last year, all I had to do was go over to the flight doc and ask for some. I had all kinds of trouble sleeping, which could have easily been solved by a ration of 3 drinks, which of course was unavailable/illegal.
JeepGuyC17 Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Isn't Ambien/Dex regulated at a higher level (i.e, usage between you and the flight docs since it has to be approved by WG/CC or higher depending on the situation)? Our Wing had a policy that before the doc would give you Ambien, you had to fill out a "please give me ambien" worksheet and get it signed by your DO
Guest Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 The only stigma against calling crew rest that I've seen is the "go ahead, call crew rest, you're only gonna fuck your bros who now have to cover that line for you" guilt trip. But from what I am reading here the "fuck your bro" thing does sometimes happen, right? People who do that should be policed/tuned up because they are ultimately the ones creating the problem.
bagasticks Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) i've worked in scheduling at an undisclosed location and actually had phuqqers play the crewrest or ORM card to do a fantasy football draft, texas hold'em tournament etc.. or they play the card at no-shit step-time. Seems one would know they are not rested or pissed prior to stepping for the jet. the current arrangement is questionable, but i dont know a better solution because the 5% shit-bag population will abuse any system in place and unfortunately get away with it because we certainly can't have anyone getting a proper kunt-punt. It's unfortunate that a dude that is legitimately tired, stressed etc. gets a ration of shit from mama. Edited March 20, 2012 by bagasticks
BQZip01 Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 The more I read this thread, the more I'm convinced an IG investigation is warranted. Being pressured by HHQ to make illegal decisions is known as unlawful command influence
PirateAF Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I called safety of flight in 2008 (undisclosed location SWAsia) due to the scheduler officially calling me in crew rest (dead sleep) to direct me to account for my crewmembers due to an airfield incident. The next day my leadership ordered me and my crew to mop and vacuum the squadron building and all crewmember trailers. Took all day - lesson learned.
disgruntledemployee Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Rule 1: ACs must have a spine with a pair attached. Rule 2: DOs and CCs must have a spine with a pair attached. If the AC calls crew rest or safety of flight and fails to stand firm, the issue may be viewed as bullshit. If the DO doesn't have your back on legit matters, they are worthless. That said, the spectrum of crap crews pull is wide and distinguished. Everything from staying up all night playing Halo (LMs) to tossing out the boat anchor to stay at a sweet locale for another night has been played. When someone has a legit issue, ACs need to employ their spine. If you need a brace, call someone to roll in and assist. Out
Ram Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Men making bullshit "crew rest" calls is a fucking integrity issue in my book, and it makes it all the more difficult for the next guy (who might have a no-shit legit reason not to step). 1
BQZip01 Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Rule 1: ACs must have a spine with a pair attached. Rule 2: DOs and CCs must have a spine with a pair attached. If the AC calls crew rest or safety of flight and fails to stand firm, the issue may be viewed as bullshit. If the DO doesn't have your back on legit matters, they are worthless. That said, the spectrum of crap crews pull is wide and distinguished. Everything from staying up all night playing Halo (LMs) to tossing out the boat anchor to stay at a sweet locale for another night has been played. When someone has a legit issue, ACs need to employ their spine. If you need a brace, call someone to roll in and assist. 2 Every DO and CC I had the pleasure of working with always had the back of his crewdogs as long as they played it straight with them.
Homestar Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Men making bullshit "crew rest" calls is a ######ing integrity issue in my book, and it makes it all the more difficult for the next guy (who might have a no-shit legit reason not to step). This, in my mind, is the ultimate issue here. I'd like to believe that ACs across the fruited plain would never make a BS crew rest/flight safety call, but it happens (Texas Hold 'em?), so someone has to make an imperfect judgement call on whether an AC is making a legit call. It's hard to prove something didn't happen...did Capt America save the day by calling crew rest? Impossible to know when/if you've broken the mishap chain. We only get good evidence when we don't break the mishap chain and someone dies. They'll second guess you either way.
DC Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) If a crew calls safety of flight a brief discussion of what details led to the safety issue, e.g. unable to sleep due to concert or sleep-cycle problems, the conversation should end and the crew should go to bed. However, a follow-up is necessary! If there was an issue, something went wrong somewhere and it needs to be fixed to keep it from happening again. If it was bullsh|t the punishment should fit the crime. In both AMC and now in AETC I've been in a position where I've called safety of flight and in a position where I've had to back up crews I'm supervising. Higher leadership always comes asking, so the trick is to have your sh|t in a sock (see initial conversation about details) and follow-up later. If you can answer the questions when they come asking and promise a follow-up, they'll get bored quickly and move on. And always, always remember the most important rule when dealing with routine missions: No good deed goes unpunished. Edited March 21, 2012 by DC
Guest Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 For better or for worse -- such a difference between our communities. Don't know how many times I've strolled into the old Rainbow Vegas (anyone here remember that place, across the street from the Cook County Detention Center and a couple blocks from Fremont Street?) 20 minutes before the AM van was leaving for the first RF go after being out all night at Binion's / Tender Trap. More than once passed 180 out with the Sq/CC or DO in the lobby with nothing more than "Morning sir, we were just out getting a little breakfast, we'll be changed and back down here in 10" and no one even flinched. Ever. Eight hours of uninterrupted rest, how you define that is up to you. You know if you can hack it, don't fuck up. A tired mind is a tactical mind...or so the thought went.
OL Patch Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 You know if you can hack it, don't xxxx up. Following procedure is technique only--do not attempt to replicate: There once was a young light grey pup pulling out of dearm after a Mission CC upgrade at a Green Flag, the morning after a night of Bat Hanging in the Canadian -18 squadron bar....canopy up, puke over right side, canopy down, pull into chocks, check for evidence of "stomach bug". Upgrade ride passed. Just a story from the 80s--technique only--do not attempt to replicate. OL Patch
Guest Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Following procedure is technique only--do not attempt to replicate: There once was a young light grey pup pulling out of dearm after a Mission CC upgrade at a Green Flag, the morning after a night of Bat Hanging in the Canadian -18 squadron bar....canopy up, puke over right side, canopy down, pull into chocks, check for evidence of "stomach bug". Upgrade ride passed. Just a story from the 80s--technique only--do not attempt to replicate. OL Patch In position on the runway at an FOL in Germany, push it up signal followed by pull it back followed by canopies up followed by FL puking over the side, followed by canopies, push it up, cranium nod 2xform T/O into the goo/TRA. 2,3 and 4 were all shit on in the debrief for not following lead and puking over the side of their jets, too. Technique only.
BigFreddie Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I've seen this multiple times. 18 hours into a day after being alerted out of bravo alert at midnight - crossing the pond at night with storms and severe turbulence. The crew was dog tired and the AC called. The squadron leadership called him on it to explain himself why he couldn't hack a 24 hour day after being in bravo. No real repercussions to the AC or crew. Second was similar, flying on the east coast. Alerted late, had mx issues, flew an hour to another location, pounded the ramp for a bit and everyone was dead tired. An evaluator was giving an OME and the AC-to-be miscalculated the ORM worksheet - he ended up with a total in the 70s or 80s. They called TACC who asked if they would like to crew rest or continue and the crew opted to crew rest. TACC entered it into their mission detail as the crew calling safety of flight. Crew called home and told the on call ADO what the story was. By the next morning everything was rolling downhill. AC-to-be was Q3'd, the evaluator was de-certified as an EP and the DO (who was a huge dude) berated the entire squadron making every single young pilot in the squadron determined to never call safety of flight for fear of their life and career. After being the subject of a Class A mishap investigation I don't mess with crew rest or flying fatigued... BF
sputnik Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I don't understand the story. The crew got hammered then the DO yelled at everyone?
Guest Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 My buddies at FedEx say they sleep on the plane all the time. In fact, the international guys say they change into sweats passing 10K. We should let our heavy guys do that. You have a galley, bunks and a shitter...kind of like an RV. Why can't you guys get some chow and some rest?! Just kidding. I remember an IP I had telling a story about how everyone on his Star Lizard crew fell asleep crossing the pond. I guess the autopilot would cycle to the first point on the route when it ran out of steerpoints and one of the crew woke up and realized the sun shouldn't be shining into the cockpit and that's when they realized they had hit the end of their NAV points and were turned back RTB. I'm sure the 10% truth rule applies but it is still a funny story.
ChkHandleDn Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 My buddies at FedEx say they sleep on the plane all the time. In fact, the international guys say they change into sweats passing 10K. We should let our heavy guys do that. You have a galley, bunks and a shitter...kind of like an RV. Why can't you guys get some chow and some rest?! When we fly augmented with three pilots we can use the bunk and it's not too bad. However, we fly basic (two pilots/two loads generally) when we're deployed and we have to stay in the seats. The days are still 16 hours, so if you've been up for awhile, you're still easily looking at 24+. Another thing of note is that he said that the safety of flight call was the toughest call he's had to make as an AC so far. In my opinion a safety of flight call should not be the toughest call one would have to make in their aviation career. It should be a simple, no questions asked call. Yet, the difficulty behind making it just demonstrates the current, second-guessing environment we find ourselves in. There seems to be some stigma behind calling it, that's for sure.
Guest Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 When we fly augmented with three pilots we can use the bunk and it's not too bad. Another thing of note is that he said that the safety of flight call was the toughest call he's had to make as an AC so far. Tell him not to worry, this will eventually be eclipsed by much more difficult decisions.
Coasta Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I never called safety of flight, but probably should have on several occasions. The one thing I never did/do was pass up an opportunity to "rest your eyes." If there's a bunk and you're augmented, there should always be someone in it. One of the many mistakes I made was joking to my crew about "wake me up before we land." We were flying from Okinawa to Elmendorf, and 9 hours later, those dipshit LTs woke me up on approach-- just in time to cuddle up to a stripper at the ABC. Calling safety of flight shouldn't be a difficult decision, but then I didn't fear reprisal because I was lucky enough to actually have leadership that backed up my decisions. I'm guessing that's where this so called "difficulty" comes into play. However, when I DID made a decision that may have been questionable, I always gave a courtesy call back to the sqdn before a grenade got rolled into the CC's office at 0700. 1
BQZip01 Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Don't know how many times I've strolled into the old Rainbow Vegas (anyone here remember that place, across the street from the Cook County Detention Center and a couple blocks from Fremont Street?) 20 minutes before the AM van was leaving for the first RF go after being out all night at Binion's / Tender Trap. More than once passed 180 out with the Sq/CC or DO in the lobby with nothing more than "Morning sir, we were just out getting a little breakfast, we'll be changed and back down here in 10" and no one even flinched. Ever. Eight hours of uninterrupted rest, how you define that is up to you. You know if you can hack it, don't fuck up. A tired mind is a tactical mind...or so the thought went. "...the opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted rest..." What YOU choose to do with it is up to you...technique only... After being the subject of a Class A mishap investigation I don't mess with crew rest or flying fatigued... You new pups take note and learn from the experiences of others so you don't have to learn it on your own! Edited March 22, 2012 by BQZip01
Gov Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Following procedure is technique only--do not attempt to replicate: There once was a young light grey pup pulling out of dearm after a Mission CC upgrade at a Green Flag, the morning after a night of Bat Hanging in the Canadian -18 squadron bar....canopy up, puke over right side, canopy down, pull into chocks, check for evidence of "stomach bug". Upgrade ride passed. Just a story from the 80s--technique only--do not attempt to replicate. OL Patch Just brought a tear to my eye. Everything up through the night before was the same, except I remember that the sequence of events was clearly, mask down, puke over side, mask up, start number two, taxi out, avoid new FOD.
BigFreddie Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I don't understand the story. The crew got hammered then the DO yelled at everyone? Exactly. Crew got hammered after they returned from the mission. The DO yelled at everyone in the squadron before the crew in question even got back from the mission.
Guest Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 "...the opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted rest..." What YOU choose to do with it is up to you...technique only... I think that was my point but thanks ever so much for clarifying. Could you slap that on 6-9 ppt slides for everyone? Thanks.
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