Safety of Flight/Crew Rest

[hispeed7721]

Deployed, I could never imagine calling crew rest. We had dudes to support on the ground and I'm sure they've had less sleep.

Totally agree. I'm sure there is some scenario crazy enough that might dictate calling crew rest, but realistically, this is true.

[tac airlifter]

All kidding aside-- If you can't imagine calling crew rest deployed, than your imagination is small. Pushing it up to support a TIC or strike? Good on you, until you pass your own limits and make mistakes; then you're doing more harm than good. There's a balance between dogmatically following rules and habitually blowing them off. I've been fortunate enough to have leadership who recognized that and taught me judgement. Hope you guys are the same.

[HercDude]

There's a balance between dogmatically following rules and habitually blowing them off. I've been fortunate enough to have leadership who recognized that and taught me judgement. Hope you guys are the same.

Seems like there is less and less of that every day in my corner of the AF.

I could have legally & legitimately called it at least a dozen times while deployed or on an operational mission. I never have. But then there was one time I didn't. When I got home I was given a Commander directed Q3, LOA, and de-certed as an Aircraft Commander. I had what you call a paradigm shift.

[Champ Kind]

You did or did not call crew rest and got in trouble?

[ElLoco]

Seems like there is less and less of that every day in my corner of the AF.

I could have legally & legitimately called it at least a dozen times while deployed or on an operational mission. I never have. But then there was one time I didn't. When I got home I was given a Commander directed Q3, LOA, and de-certed as an Aircraft Commander. I had what you call a paradigm shift.

What's the story, if you care to share...sounds shitty

[Tonka]

Seems like there is less and less of that every day in my corner of the AF.

I could have legally & legitimately called it at least a dozen times while deployed or on an operational mission. I never have. But then there was one time I didn't. When I got home I was given a Commander directed Q3, LOA, and de-certed as an Aircraft Commander. I had what you call a paradigm shift.

I know 2 ACs with Q3s for not calling it for crew duty day... I also know of some SOF folks that were stranded because a crew decided there day was over and couldn't wait any longer. And a crew that had to explain to the 4 star (flown to meet him in person) why they decided to not fly the last leg with a DV on it for crew rest. The best we can hope to do is break even...

[disgruntledemployee]

I know 2 ACs with Q3s for not calling it for crew duty day... I also know of some SOF folks that were stranded because a crew decided there day was over and couldn't wait any longer. And a crew that had to explain to the 4 star (flown to meet him in person) why they decided to not fly the last leg with a DV on it for crew rest. The best we can hope to do is break even...

Did any of these ACs call home, explain the situation, offer a plan, and get some cover? That's the way the AF wants it. We are not supposed to make our own decisions anymore. I like to get my decisions made very high, usually 1 or stars is my target. That way I can justify all the generals we have.

Anyway...

Play like a cowboy, sometimes you swagger away, sometimes you get shot between the eyes.

Out

[jrobe]

There's a balance between dogmatically following rules and habitually blowing them off. I've been fortunate enough to have leadership who recognized that and taught me judgement. Hope you guys are the same.

Tac... re member the a - hole (leader)who asked us to fly in a dust strom below minimums....tried to stall the plane during a Tac departure...and Q3'd an entire crew....after he hit a fire bottle...and some how didn't Q3 himself.....

Glad you found better leaders. ...

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[Champ Kind]

I think a lot of us know who you're talking about.

[StoleIt]

Do share!

[Herk Driver]

I think a lot of us know who you're talking about.

He's on the way out via retirement this year.

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[fox two]

Honestly it's up to the individual to call it based on how they feel, and of course the specific number set by the regs isn't going to fit every situation 100% of the time. I've slept 12 hours and flew like dogshit (hadn't flown in awhile and wasn't feeling it from the beginning). On the other hand, after flying 8 days in a row, I got 4 hours of sleep while sick and flew my best mission (and saved 15 lives on the ground). High ops tempo and I knew I felt fine.

[HercDude]

You did or did not call crew rest and got in trouble?

I chose NOT to call crew rest when I legally could, because I was comfortable to fly, it was a brief interruption, it was a short flight, there was another aircraft commander on board, I felt pressured to accomplish the mission on time, and I believed my chain of command knew before I took off that my rest was interrupted (they denied that I had explained that adequately over the phone, which I found plausible but not all that likely).

Sidebar:

Biggest lesson learned there was that when you are handed a AF Form 1168 and read your Miranda Rights, don't think you'll just be a bro and play it cool with your commander. I thought he'd help me out and be on my side. Turns out he threw me under the bus. Decline to comment and go see the ADC.

[jrobe]

Sidebar:

Biggest lesson learned there was that when you are handed a AF Form 1168 and read your Miranda Rights, don't think you'll just be a bro and play it cool with your commander. I thought he'd help me out and be on my side. Turns out he threw me under the bus. Decline to comment and go see the ADC.

Agreed....

Same advice applies when the phrase " I'm not trying to Q3 you." Can you write down what happened? Is used.

This happen to me once. ...and happened to a few freinds....and it didn't work out too well for them

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[Herk Driver]

That sounds similar to a crew at AUAB back in the day. Sitting Bravo, watched a movie late out between the tent rows (O and P). Blocked the road for the crew van and gave the duty dawg a hard time when he asked them to move. Made a lot of noise that kept others awake and finally went to bed. Several hours later they were alerted.

He filled out the ORM sheet with several sarcastic comments about no sleep or very little sleep. IIRC, next to quality of sleep he wrote, "yeah, right." The ORM numbers required a call to the Sq/CC and then the OG. Not sure that the Sq/CC even got a phone call before the duty crew called the OG directly. The crew had stepped to the airplane before hearing back. The OG did not approve and called the crew back in. I don't remember the consequences but the AC got his ass handed to him, at a minimum for not using good judgement.

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[Insubordinate & Churlish]

Big Thread Bump

Is it written anywhere that aircrew "must/shall/will" be assigned single occupancy rooms for crew rest? And yes, I understand that while deployed this certainly goes out the window, but during routine TDY we always get it. Just looking for a reg reference.

[brabus]

I’ve had double billeting on normal TDYs several times throughout my career. Never heard of it being explicitly not allowed, but of course single billeting is always the goal and generally works out. 

[Chida]

It used to be in the lodging reg, along with other standards such as air conditioning, which I used to justify getting off-base lodging due to “adverse effects”, back when I did aircrew TDYs. 

[HossHarris]

IIRC the specs that were controlling were for officer lodging (vice aircrew). May have been a DoD Reg but I have no recollection of where I found it 

[pawnman]

On 8/2/2014 at 9:45 AM, HercDude said:

 

 

I chose NOT to call crew rest when I legally could, because I was comfortable to fly, it was a brief interruption, it was a short flight, there was another aircraft commander on board, I felt pressured to accomplish the mission on time, and I believed my chain of command knew before I took off that my rest was interrupted (they denied that I had explained that adequately over the phone, which I found plausible but not all that likely).

 

Sidebar:

Biggest lesson learned there was that when you are handed a AF Form 1168 and read your Miranda Rights, don't think you'll just be a bro and play it cool with your commander. I thought he'd help me out and be on my side. Turns out he threw me under the bus. Decline to comment and go see the ADC.

Every day is shut the fuck up Friday. 

No one on your side will ever read you your rights. 

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Every day is shut the fuck up Friday. 

No one on your side will ever read you your rights. 

It makes for incredibly akward situations (been there) but anyone that pushes you in the wrong direction (talking when you shouldn't be talking) isn't interested "looking out for you".  On the plus side, you get to REALLY rile up Staff Sergeant Fucktard Investigator who really doesn't like it when you or your troop exercise their rights.  

[ViperMan]

I'm pretty sure all officers and higher up Es are due single billets...notwithstanding deployment.

[arg]

Back in the day it was E-7/O4 and above

[jrizzell]

If your Sq is dictating this for TDY, then you get to suck it up. Unless you feel like fighting with leadership.


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[Prozac]

1 hour ago, jrizzell said:

If your Sq is dictating this for TDY, then you get to suck it up. Unless you feel like fighting with leadership.


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& put it in your bag of “reasons I’m leaning the AF for Delta/FedEx/United/etc.”. You will not be dealing with double occupancy at any of those places & will have zero reasons to avoid calling fatigued when proper rest has not been achieved.