Safety of Flight/Crew Rest

[JarheadBoom]

That's a pitiful rationale. You want to avoid misuse and abuse? How about simply trusting the flyers to use the pills as prescribed. You're only giving them 1-2 pills tops! It's not like it would be easy/economical/intelligent to sell 1-2 pills on the black market. You staff rats who make these convoluted decisions need to pull your collective heads out of your fourth point of contact. Let me get this straight, you trust aircrew with a $100M+ aircraft with possibly hundreds of lives on board with the chance of an ever present IFE, but taking a single pill is beyond their level of trust?!?

UFB?!?!?!

Remember, we're talking about the same "leadership" that decided that the same folks they trusted with multi-million/billion $$ national assets, strategic intel, nuke secrets, and dozens of other things that require the utmost integrity as a part of their daily routine, could no longer be trusted to count pushups and situps...

[Guest]

That all makes sense if you fly a multiplace aircraft. We single-seaters don't always have much of a choice. Alert sorties flown after broken rest periods, pond crossings flown into/out of night...the list goes on. A pill isn't a substitute for good ol' sleep, but it's a gap-filler when the only alternative is mission failure.

Go pills came up when Psycho shacked the Canadians.

[BQZip01]

Remember, we're talking about the same "leadership" that decided that the same folks they trusted with multi-million/billion $$ national assets, strategic intel, nuke secrets, and dozens of other things that require the utmost integrity as a part of their daily routine, could no longer be trusted to count pushups and situps...

Duh, you're career's on the line when pushups and situps are measured. Flying is merely a benefit of being in the service...

[ViperStud]

Searched 11-202v3 and the airframe specifc vol 3 and couldn't find this - isn't there some restriction as to how much down time you need when you cross X amount of time zones on a trip, whether for work OR personal travel? I'm sure it's different for fighter versus heavy (augmented) crews but I remember this being a factor when I crossed the Pacific and it came up again after some personal travel but I couldn't find where it was mentioned.

[Butters]

Searched 11-202v3 and the airframe specifc vol 3 and couldn't find this - isn't there some restriction as to how much down time you need when you cross X amount of time zones on a trip, whether for work OR personal travel? I'm sure it's different for fighter versus heavy (augmented) crews but I remember this being a factor when I crossed the Pacific and it came up again after some personal travel but I couldn't find where it was mentioned.

Last time I saw that was in the PACF SUP to the MDS Vol 3s. Not in the AMC regs. Not sure about USAFE.

[busdriver]

Searched 11-202v3 and the airframe specifc vol 3 and couldn't find this - isn't there some restriction as to how much down time you need when you cross X amount of time zones on a trip, whether for work OR personal travel? I'm sure it's different for fighter versus heavy (augmented) crews but I remember this being a factor when I crossed the Pacific and it came up again after some personal travel but I couldn't find where it was mentioned.

ACC sup to 202v3

[GearMonkey]

Searched 11-202v3 and the airframe specifc vol 3 and couldn't find this - isn't there some restriction as to how much down time you need when you cross X amount of time zones on a trip, whether for work OR personal travel? I'm sure it's different for fighter versus heavy (augmented) crews but I remember this being a factor when I crossed the Pacific and it came up again after some personal travel but I couldn't find where it was mentioned.

AMC hands out a fatigue pamphlet that mentions this (It's something like one day off for every three or four time zones crossed) but it isn't an official instruction or regulation. The best part is that every factor it mentions that negatively impacts sleep patterns is essential to AMC operations. Bottom line, if you want proper time off to adjust to time zone changes in AMC you'd better find yourself a fighter drag.

[ChkHandleDn]

As far as the C-17 is concerned, the only specific time I've ever seen is for PMCR in which we're supposed to get 1 hr off (up to 96 hrs) for every 3 hrs we spend off station. Granted this can be waived. I haven't seen anything specific to time zone crossings though.

[lj35driver]

I haven't seen anything specific to time zone crossings though.

C-17 Vol 3 mentions crossing time zones in this paragraph but that's about it. I think it's ignored for the most part.

3.10.3.2. Mobility planners should construct mission itineraries with en route ground times longer

than 16+30 hours to afford aircrew members opportunities to recover from the cumulative affects

of fatigue caused by flying on several consecutive days or due to transiting several time zones. If

practical, make the en route ground time 36 hours (maximum) after three consecutive near maximum

FDPs.

The paragraph that follows is the section on Crew Enhancement Crew Rest and goes into how it's not an alternative to a safety of flight delay. I once asked for an additional 3 hours ground time after 4 near max for my combat basic crew. Our schedule had been jacked around so many times over the past week that we were draggin' ass. The floor DO had a shit fit and stated that he was calling our DETCO to report that we had requested CECR. I told him I could care less what he did because for the first time in a week, we were in a location where the crew could some good recuperative sleep. And for phuck's sake, the jet was empty on the next leg! If there wasn't consensus the next day that we all felt good enough to go fly, I would've called it and not blinked.

[Fozzy Bear]

At the risk of, ya know..

What is the difference between Crew Duty Day and Flight Duty Period? I see these terms interchanged in conversations and regulations.

Either one basically means your clock starts at show or when official work starts, and ends either when engines shut down, post mission paperwork is complete, or something like that - depends on what you read.

Are these just synonyms, or is there a legal difference?

[Champ Kind]

I always thought the vol 3 was pretty clear. Don't have one handy to copy/paste.

Is there a specific issue?

FDP ends at engine shutdown (and is shorter) because that's the longest time that one can operate an aircraft. Crew duty is the additional ground items.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Champ Kind

[Fozzy Bear]

the issue would be that extra hour or so, post shutdown... just trying to nail down some planning items.

I've seen it where one is the 'governing' term versus the other, and I've seen them be used interchangeably; thought there was a slight difference. Thank you.

[Champ Kind]

Your crew duty day would end after engine shutdown and all post-flight duties were done as well as any preflight planning for subsequent missions. The latter can definitely be murky, especially on the road.

[Azimuth]

Out of my MDS's Vol 3:

3.7.1. Flight Duty Period (FDP). FDP is the period of time starting at mission report time and ending immediately after the aircrew completes the final engine shutdown of the day.

3.7.2. Crew Duty Time (CDT). CDT is that period of time an aircrew may perform combined ground/flight duties. Plan the mission so aircrew members may complete postmission duties within maximum CDT. An aircrew member may perform mission-related duties for other missions when approved by members home station SQ/CC or equivalent.

So FDP starts one hour after alert and ends when engines are shut down. While CDT starts one hour after alerted and ends depending on what your MDS's Vol 3 says (mine 18+00 for basic crew, 24+45 for augmented crew).

[Smokin]

Forget if it is 202v3 or 2-F-16 but if you cross more than 4 time zones it is a 48 hr DNIF. If you go TDY or on vacation to Europe from CONUS or vise versa, you're DNIF for 48 hrs when you get back. It does not apply during AOS movements, only when you arrive at your final destination.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Smokin

[Champ Kind]

24+45 for augmented crew

Eff. That.

[ThreeHoler]

Forget if it is 202v3 or 2-F-16 but if you cross more than 4 time zones it is a 48 hr DNIF. If you go TDY or on vacation to Europe from CONUS or vise versa, you're DNIF for 48 hrs when you get back. It does not apply during AOS movements, only when you arrive at your final destination.

Not 202...we do it all the time in AMC.

We can also land at night when we go off station.

Eff. That.

You get used to it.

[magnetfreezer]

Eff. That.

33ish hr (with go pills though): https://www.ellsworth.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123411832

[SurelySerious]

33ish hr (with go pills though): https://www.ellsworth.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123411832

B-2 crew flew 44 hrs to AFG out of Whiteman. Giddy up.

[stract]

At the risk of, ya know..

What is the difference between Crew Duty Day and Flight Duty Period? I see these terms interchanged in conversations and regulations.

Either one basically means your clock starts at show or when official work starts, and ends either when engines shut down, post mission paperwork is complete, or something like that - depends on what you read.

Are these just synonyms, or is there a legal difference?

You can fly as long as your FDP, and you must rest IAW crew rest rules, but the crew rest clock starts when you are done with post-mission stuff, not when the engines stop.

[brwwg&b]

Forget if it is 202v3 or 2-F-16 but if you cross more than 4 time zones it is a 48 hr DNIF. If you go TDY or on vacation to Europe from CONUS or vise versa, you're DNIF for 48 hrs when you get back. It does not apply during AOS movements, only when you arrive at your final destination.

Each MAJCOM is supposed to have their own rules. It's in the 202v3, this sounds like the same one AETC had

edit to add: Exceptions apply to cargo types on HHQ missions

Edited July 28, 2014 by brwwg&b

[ThreeHoler]

Each MAJCOM is supposed to have their own rules. It's in the 202v3, this sounds like the same one AETC had

edit to add: Exceptions apply to cargo types on HHQ missions

Oh, so in the MAJCOM Sup to 11-202V3...not the 11-202V3. Got it.

[tac airlifter]

At the risk of, ya know..

What is the difference between Crew Duty Day and Flight Duty Period? I see these terms interchanged in conversations and regulations.

Either one basically means your clock starts at show or when official work starts, and ends either when engines shut down, post mission paperwork is complete, or something like that - depends on what you read.

Are these just synonyms, or is there a legal difference?

Fozzy, here's how I remember the difference: FDP is the one we sometimes violate. CDD is the one we always violate. Have fun out there!

[Bode]

A specific example C17 CDD augmented is 24+45 starting one hour after alert or crew show. FDP is 24+00 from the same point. Basically allows for you to shut down engines at 24 hours and still do paperwork and off load.

[Magruber]

No offense, I get crew rest is important, but this thread has me laughing. Deployed, I could never imagine calling crew rest. We had dudes to support on the ground and I'm sure they've had less sleep. That said, I'd never question someone's judgement. But I never had too either. I guess my unit had some perspective. We had real decisions to make.

Commence spear throwing.