Hornet Crash @ Virginia Beach - Populated Area

[Butters]

Wow the news is killing me.

"He was smoking really bad. Bad smoke was coming out of the engine. It kind of backfired a couple times. I heard two pops … then 15 seconds later I heard the explosion."

Had to have been the engines, no way that was the 2 guys ejecting.... using the "ejection button" Timmy referred to.

"Jet had rear flames before crash"... Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that how jet engines work? What is supposed to come out the back, water? beer?

[BQZip01]

Wow the news is killing me.

"He was smoking really bad. Bad smoke was coming out of the engine. It kind of backfired a couple times. I heard two pops … then 15 seconds later I heard the explosion."

Had to have been the engines, no way that was the 2 guys ejecting.... using the "ejection button" Timmy referred to.

"Jet had rear flames before crash"... Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that how jet engines work? What is supposed to come out the back, water? beer?

If it's beer, I've been working in the wrong portion of the Air Force...

[BADFNZ]

Didn't finish my thought. I just heard a resident say that he heard several bangs before the aircraft hit the building. I'm thinking a possible compressor stall/surge.

LS

Or two rocket motors strapped to the bottom of the pilot's asses.

[FUSEPLUG]

Saw an interview with a retired "rescue" guy on Fox News this afternoon. He described helping one of the pilots to safety from his ejection seat. Now I haven't flown anything with an ejection seat since the Tweet, but doesn't the seat-man separation happen in a matter of seconds for most of these things? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't leave the seat for some reason aren't you pretty much toast?

[Lensatic]

Or two rocket motors strapped to the bottom of the pilot's asses.

Yes, very good. That may well be. As an Airline Dispatcher for many years at LAX, I saw, heard, and dealt with many crosswind caused compressor stalls and/or surges, but no ejection seats. I was only pointing out a fact and offering an opinion from past experience.

KNTU's 05R departure end is 23L approach end and the Navy said it was a departure.

As you were! ;)

LS

Edited April 7, 2012 by Len Satic

[BQZip01]

Or two rocket motors strapped to the bottom of the pilot's asses.

<insert snide comment about the Navy and the aforementioned comment>

[BolterKing]

I seem to recall that Canuck Hornet doing airshow practice had something with a single engine compressor stall at high alpha and lost control. From the sounds (one nozzle open, one closed), that could be a culprit. Bolter King commentary?

But who cares, as long as people are okay, who gives a ###### about the airplane.

Rumors that tower reported they were on fire on takeoff. Was an F-18D, you can tell from pictures of the ejection seats on them interwebs, older seats, not the new SJU-17. There are Deltas with the newer seat, but those are high lot jets most of which are in Marine fleet squadrons, but I digress. Yes seat/man seperation happens right after the chute opens (which is packed in the head box (heh). Winds of 20G25 in the Hornet are not that big of a deal, compressor stalls in the F404 are pretty rare unless you suck something down like a bird. They operate just fine at 70 knots and 45+ AOA. The Canadian jet that crashed was doing a slow speed/high AOA demo practice and lost a motor, usually about 25 AOA and 110 knots or so, 35 AOA is C/Lmax. On takeoff you'll rarely exceed single digit AOA.

Agree that one nozzle open, the other closed indicates an engine problem (speculation) however the three loud bangs everyone heard was probably the ejection sequence. Canopy, back seat, front seat. Know the guy in the back, good/smart dude. Hoping everyone on the ground is ok.

This is going to turn into a political shit storm given the vocal nature of local opponents to the base.

Edited April 7, 2012 by BolterKing

[Victory103]

BK, how big a deal is a single engine EP in the Hornet, in this config (assuing at least one drop tank) right after take off?

Just remember in my Navy days at least one coming back to the boat, 10 mile straight in, half flaps. I realize, shore and boat completely different animals.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Victory103

[ATIS]

This is going to turn into a political shit storm given the vocal nature of local opponents to the base.

Concur. Stashed with VFC-12/NAS Oceana in 1992 and wondered about the fact that the build up around the base was starting to increase. 1994, in a T-2 Buckeye on downwind, puts me right over Lynnhaven Mall with a huge flock of birds co-alt and closing with nowhere to go = bad place. My trips back to Oceana to work the pattern in the late 90's and into the early 2000's really opened my eyes, no more farmland to put a jet...it's all developments now. Pax River on the West and North side is starting build up and look like encroachment...but luckily it's all water to the South and East. This is going to be a shit sandwich for the Oceana supporters/base to eat, would be worse if there were fatalities. Kudos to the student/instructor for dealing with the sitation, and the response by the local FD.

ATIS

[BolterKing]

BK, how big a deal is a single engine EP in the Hornet, in this config (assuing at least one drop tank) right after take off?

Just remember in my Navy days at least one coming back to the boat, 10 mile straight in, half flaps. I realize, shore and boat completely different animals.

Jet flies fine on one engine, especially light (one centerline and pylons). Buddy of mine lost an engine on the cat shot in in a combat loaded jet (two drops, three 500 #ers) and didn't even realize he'd lost the motor until after he cleaned up. Never got any master caution/warning or aural tones.

Have to wait until they pull the info from the DFIRS to see what actually happened.

[Tank]

I am still waiting for CNN to spin the story and make it President Bush's fault...

[60 driver]

Yes, very good. That may well be. As an Airline Dispatcher for many years at LAX, I saw, heard, and dealt with many crosswind caused compressor stalls and/or surges, but no ejection seats. I was only pointing out a fact and offering an opinion from past experience.

KNTU's 05R departure end is 23L approach end and the Navy said it was a departure.

As you were! ;)

LS

Fire up that past experience and elaborate on how the wind affected the engines in flight.

Edited April 7, 2012 by 60 driver

[fire4effect]

Bolterking,

How likely was it that the crew was intentionally dumping fuel versus leaking fuel? With as little time as they apparently had then they were sure on top of things either way. If a part of the engine liberated (I'm referring to something heavy like a disk as opposed to blade(s) which I would suspect would stay contained) then it could easily puncture a tank and maybe account for some witnesses (assuming they're right) saying they saw fire prior to impact.

[Cap-10]

Yes, very good. That may well be. As an Airline Dispatcher for many years at LAX, I saw, heard, and dealt with many crosswind caused compressor stalls and/or surges, but no ejection seats. I was only pointing out a fact and offering an opinion from past experience.

Wait...What?

You are saying the airliners are so poorly designed, that they would compressor stall becuase of the disturbed airflow into the engine due to the crabbing for the crosswind?

Please enlighten us.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[Guest jtsmith1]

Bolterking,

How likely was it that the crew was intentionally dumping fuel versus leaking fuel? With as little time as they apparently had then they were sure on top of things either way. If a part of the engine liberated (I'm referring to something heavy like a disk as opposed to blade(s) which I would suspect would stay contained) then it could easily puncture a tank and maybe account for some witnesses (assuming they're right) saying they saw fire prior to impact.

You are correct, the engine case is designed to contain the blade in a blade out event. We spend a lot of time and money making sure of this, including running fan blade out tests where we rig a blade with explosives and let it loose at a certain point in the cycle to prove the case worthy of containing the blade.

While it's possible that a rotor failed, it is very, very unlikely. We do extensive design work to prevent these. Why? Because we cannot contain a rotor failure event, there is too much energy in the rotor. There has only been one situation that I am aware of where a rotor has failed on one of our engines and that was in the 80's.

Wait...What?

You are saying the airliners are so poorly designed, that they would compressor stall becuase of the disturbed airflow into the engine due to the crabbing for the crosswind?

Please enlighten us.

Cheers,

Cap-10

Yes, this is possible, though the engine design should account for it. This is another event we design for and test, though there are other operability systems that could unload the compressor and keep it from stalling in this kind of situation. This would be a very unique situation and I think you would have to be really pushing the engine to the edge of its operability envelope and then have some other failure occur where the engine couldnt unload the compressor.

Edited April 7, 2012 by jtsmith1

[Guest]

Yes, this is possible.

Please.

[Champ Kind]

Yes, this is possible

Please.

I guess the crew is just lucky they were single ship. If they'd been in formation, they may have flown through their flight lead's jet wash and wound up in a flat spin, headed out to sea.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Champ Kind

[Guest jtsmith1]

I guess the crew is just lucky they were single ship. If they'd been in formation, they may have flown through their flight lead's jet wash and wound up in a flat spin, headed out to sea.

I didn't say it was likely nor did I elude to it having anything to do with this incident, in fact I explicitly said the opposite. I just stated that it is physically possible. Not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

[Cap-10]

jtsmith,

I well aware of the design testing (my F-15 has variable ramps and 6-9 internal doors that are constantly changing based on AOA, etc to keep the airflow smooth as in enters the engine)....I am also aware that anything is possible, but LAX flight dispatcher guy was making it sound like airliners were compressor stalling all the time just because they were landing in a crosswind and I was throwing the BS flag and asking him to elaborate on his position (STS).

Cheers,

Cap-10

[sky_king]

A heavy can experience a compressor stall at high power settings during the beginning of the takeoff roll if crosswinds are strong enough. This is due to the fuselage disturbing the airflow to the downwind engines. Specifically, Boeing 707 type airframes have a recommendation for max crosswind with a static takeoff for this very reason. Above about 30 kias, however, there is no way a crosswind could affect the engines.

Edited April 7, 2012 by sky_king

[HercDude]

I am still waiting for CNN to spin the story and make it President Bush's fault...

Or give credit to Obama for the lack of fatalities.

[General Condition]

A heavy can experience a compressor stall at high power settings during the beginning of the takeoff roll if crosswinds are strong enough. This is due to the fuselage disturbing the airflow to the downwind engines. Specifically, Boeing 707 type airframes have a recommendation for max crosswind with a static takeoff for this very reason. Above about 30 kias, however, there is no way a crosswind could affect the engines.

I call bullshit. You got a reference for this?

[fire4effect]

A heavy can experience a compressor stall at high power settings during the beginning of the takeoff roll if crosswinds are strong enough. This is due to the fuselage disturbing the airflow to the downwind engines. Specifically, Boeing 707 type airframes have a recommendation for max crosswind with a static takeoff for this very reason. Above about 30 kias, however, there is no way a crosswind could affect the engines.

One other thing about some older engines on the heavies is as compressor blades wear then the stall margin decreases. The F108 on the 135 has some old, high time engines that can under certain crosswind conditions on taxi and early in the takeoff roll, stall.

On my earlier point an A-10 had a disk let go in the not too distant past. There's even a case out there on a ground run where an American 767 I think threw a disk that went clear through the fuselage into the other engine. I know everyone remembers Souix City. Improper forging left an inclusion that caused it to fail. Thats why disks have eddy current/ultrasonic inspections and hard life limits

[Jughead]

I call bullshit. You got a reference for this?

I'm guesssing you've never flown TF-33-equipped -135s before; I trust the -1 is a good enough reference...?

This static maximum effort takeoff technique will only be used when takeoff distance is critical and crosswind conditions are not severe.

I grabbed the the text from the WC-135 -1 since that was the first small-motor -135 book I could put my hands on--the same (or similar) wording is in every small-motor -135 I've ever flown (and, more to the point, compressor stalls at the start of a high-power takeoff in crosswind conditions is a very real condition). No idea if this applies or not to the Hornet in question....

EDIT: Format

Edited April 8, 2012 by Jughead

[Bergman]

Wait...What?

You are saying the airliners are so poorly designed, that they would compressor stall becuase of the disturbed airflow into the engine due to the crabbing for the crosswind?

Please enlighten us.

Cheers,

Cap-10

Compressor stalls were fairly common in the -135E, which had TF33s lifted from 707s. One would assume the actual 707s that used to roam the earth would have similar issues.

Typically they would happen at high power settings with a relatively high crosswind component of maybe 15-20 knots. When it'd happen, you would swear the damned engine just blew up...loud as shit and the whole jet would rock violently. Had it happen on go-around twice but think those were due to either ham-fisting the throttles or mx issues.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Bergman