Bye bye demo teams (A-10, F-15E, F-16)

[Buddy Spike]

.....all the solo's teams except F-22 are cancelled.

Low show option only.

[BCan]

Oh, for ######'s sake. They logged RAP "on most X-C sorties"? You guys get lots of good tactical training in the mudhen on your X-C sorties these days without pods or even PTMs on board? Do your guys only go to air shows in the local area?

I'm not disagreeing with you. The demo guys get much better training with local RAP sorties...so then that's the savings...you get a tactically proficient IP/SEFE type back in the sq...not dozens of wingmen making RAP as is being offered by ACC.

I've got guys in my A10 sq stepping today for dry MOA CAS...alot of show locations are close enough to stop in a MOA for 20-30 minutes and to do dry SAT, CAS, BFM. Is it great triaining...no...but you sometimes do the same type of training at home.

My big beef (sts) is that ACC cnx's Demo...changes the name to Heritage...claims savings...and then we still support random static requests throughout ACC with CAF aircraft across all units. We took a great program that was refined over the last 30 years...cancelled it...restarted it 2-weeks later under a new name...and now it's 1/2 the program it use to be....

And like everything else...it's an additional duty for all my friends...AF standard.

Edited April 23, 2012 by BCan

[JS57]

I'm not a fighter guy so i have no idea how this cut could/could not help with training etc, but it is absolute horse sh*t that programs like this get cut while programs like TIB is in full force. Where is the disconnect with leadership? They honestly think the members of the AF or general public give a rat's ass about TIB and instead of cutting that they cut programs that put the inspiration into some kid's heart to want to someday be a US Air Force pilot?

I wonder how many of us fell in love with the idea of serving our nation as a AF pilot from hearing a friggin band.

[Day Man]

Where is the disconnect with management?

FTFY

[Guest]

RAP: I was on the F-15E demo

What does "on the F-15E demo" mean? Were you the demo queer?

[HuggyU2]

Noonin,

BCan and many others know this side of the equation far better than I,... and if they sat down and 'splained it to you for 5 minutes, you'd get it. Unfortunately, I cannot remember many of the nuances of the budget side of it that make the decision invalid.

However, I do know that most General-officers (with a few notable exceptions such as Lt Gen Gorenc and Brig Gen Jannitto) know nothing of how or why airshows work, and what they do for the Air Force.

I'm willing to bet there are more than a few congressional districts that will be complaining about the lack of AF jet team presence at their show this year. I know of one already.

You have to spend money to make money. Although the AF isn't into it to "make $$$", the AF certainly does "make 'money' " at many airshows.

And at $55,000/hr, why did the AF decide to keep the F-22 demo team vice the other ones? I'm referring to the demo teams that operate aircraft whose cost per hour is less than half the F-22's (F-15E, F-16, A-10... ).

Edited April 25, 2012 by Huggyu2

[Claybird]

I'm willing to bet there are more than a few congressional districts that will be complaining about the lack of AF jet team presence at their show this year. I know of one already.

And at $55,000/hr, why did the AF decide to keep the F-22 demo team vice the other ones? I'm referring to the demo teams that operate aircraft whose cost per hour is less than half the F-22's (F-15E, F-16, A-10... ).

Would these two lines have anything to do with it? You think these Congressmen who are having their pet National Guard squadrons mothballed are going to be happy to see a Hog or Viper come to their state and demonstrate how capable it is? Cynical of me I know...

[Guest]

You think these Congressmen who are having their pet National Guard squadrons mothballed are going to be happy to see a Hog or Viper come to their state and demonstrate how capable it is?

Politicians could give a shit about the airplanes. They only care about jobs.

In other news...there are typically less than 50 people in any ANG unit who actually care what type of aircraft, if any, are on the ramp. They also just want a job, full or part time.

[Danny Noonin]

Noonin,

BCan and many others know this side of the equation far better than I,... and if they sat down and 'splained it to you for 5 minutes, you'd get it.

Thanks, but I understand the situation just fine and don't need anything 'splained to me.

Here's the facts:

1) the demos were cancelled because ACC/A3 could not justify them when we have inadequate training lines in CAF units

2) I can see his point and I really think he's trying to do the right thing, but cutting demos then continuing to send statics and 2-ships to heritage flights doesn't pass the smell test. FWIW, the Navy cut back demos severely as well for the same reasons.

3) Cancelling the demos will not fix our training problem, but will add some training sorties back into the lineup. Enough to make a real difference? No. But in some sense, every sortie counts.

4) This has absolutely nothing to do with TIB. Those that equate the two are the ones that need the real world 'splained to them.

5) I think the demos should have stayed

I'm not sure there is still any disagreement here.

[czecksikhs]

You have to spend money to make money. Although the AF isn't into it to "make $$$", the AF certainly does "make 'money' " at many airshows.

And at $55,000/hr, why did the AF decide to keep the F-22 demo team vice the other ones? I'm referring to the demo teams that operate aircraft whose cost per hour is less than half the F-22's (F-15E, F-16, A-10... ).

Because the AF makes more of the "money" you speak of having the newest and greatest toy show up to air shows.

[Cap-10]

What does "on the F-15E demo" mean? Were you the demo queer?

Nope....safety observer for a few years flying the spare airplane....got to enjoy all the perks (hotel points, flights in the Heritage birds) of the trip with no bottle/throttle requirement....just had to stand next to the airboss and try to look good....not throwing up in front of the crowd was bonus points!

Cheers,

Cap-10

[Claybird]

Rainman, I concur, but every other day for the last month one of our esteemed Iowa representatives or senators is on the radio or issuing a press release about what a great asset the Des Moines Vipers are. Of course these hypocritical idiots were nowhere to be seen last Thanksgiving when that whole budget boondoggle that led to all these defense cuts happened in the first place. And I don't see them chopping foreign aid or welfare or $6000 toilets to put the budget in places the Constitution says it should be. Only .069% of the public actually knows the truth about all of that anyway.

[Danny Noonin]

I've made many a "picture", "sort" and "fox" calls during my XC's but maybe that's just me....you can get as much/little training out of your gas as you want

Sorry but I have to call you out on this one...You were able to practice sorts on XCs? Lots of 737s flying formation inside group criteria were there?

[Majestik Møøse]

TLDR: You can fly a low of fighter airshow demos for $750K-$2.2M. And this is only one TIB trip.

This July, TIB will be performing across the AOR for two weeks. Being a numbers kind of guy, I wanted to quantify the cost of this "deployment" (that's what they call it, no kidding), so I busted out the trustly old excel spreadsheet. I came up with a low-end cost (KC-10 deploy/redeploy, C-130J intra-theater) and a high-end cost (C-5/C-130H) based on the USAF CPFH models and hours assumptions. A good friend of mine had to move these guys, their standard cargo weight 70k, along with 40-45 personnel.

[sky_king]

I don't see your point. It's from a different pot of money...

[capt4fans]

TLDR: You can fly a low of fighter airshow demos for $750K-$2.2M. And this is only one TIB trip.

This July, TIB will be performing across the AOR for two weeks. Being a numbers kind of guy, I wanted to quantify the cost of this "deployment" (that's what they call it, no kidding), so I busted out the trustly old excel spreadsheet. I came up with a low-end cost (KC-10 deploy/redeploy, C-130J intra-theater) and a high-end cost (C-5/C-130H) based on the USAF CPFH models and hours assumptions. A good friend of mine had to move these guys, their standard cargo weight 70k, along with 40-45 personnel.

Can we get this in a power point brief so it all makes sense?

[BFM this]

Can we get this in a power point brief so it all makes sense?

It's like BQZip's mating call!

[brabus]

Sorry but I have to call you out on this one...You were able to practice sorts on XCs? Lots of 737s flying formation inside group criteria were there?

I love the XC RAP argument: "just take a valid 120 on an airline and log it as TI." No, go fuck yourself. I'm not a complete "RAP snob" and will do my best to get some blue training when flying red air, for example, but if all I did was drive and die then RTB to an ILS...its red air. Between these two scenarios, the recent RAP cuts and MX, the bullshit logging of RAP has to end. Don't be a douche about it, but at the same time your bullshitting yourself and others if you claim you got valid, tactical training on some of the crap I've seen guys log (and in the past I've been talked into logging).

[Cap-10]

I love the XC RAP argument: "just take a valid 120 on an airline and log it as TI." No, go fuck yourself. I'm not a complete "RAP snob" and will do my best to get some blue training when flying red air, for example, but if all I did was drive and die then RTB to an ILS...its red air. Between these two scenarios, the recent RAP cuts and MX, the bullshit logging of RAP has to end. Don't be a douche about it, but at the same time your bullshitting yourself and others if you claim you got valid, tactical training on some of the crap I've seen guys log (and in the past I've been talked into logging).

Noonin was calling me out for my claims of sorting while on Demo XC's...valid, no B-737 flying welded wingman....my point was that I got what I could out of the gas I was given....I used my radar for long range search, practiced good lock mechanics, made appropriate locked/pop-up comm, loaded training misses, hit the pickle button and said "Fox", monitored missiles status thought TOF, etc.

If you go back and read my earlier posts, I said I did NOT log RAP on XC's sorties, I logged COB (cost of business). Demo Safety Observer was an additional duty and I was flying plenty of RAP sorties instructing B/I/TX coursers when I was home.

Your point of pencil whipping RAP squares are valid, but there are plenty of guys whipping on local flag pole sorties (logging two sorties just because you went to the tanker, even thought the AAR was per-fights, not a fight-tank-fight)...you don't have to be on a demo XC to fudge RAP.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[Guest]

Quibbling.

[brabus]

If you go back and read my earlier posts, I said I did NOT log RAP on XC's sorties, I logged COB (cost of business). Demo Safety Observer was an additional duty and I was flying plenty of RAP sorties instructing B/I/TX coursers when I was home.

Copy, my bad. Anyways, my comment was more a generic RAP comment and not really directed at you. I've just been in the XC situation before and told I needed to log RAP...yeah right.

but there are plenty of guys whipping on local flag pole sorties (logging two sorties just because you went to the tanker, even thought the AAR was per-fights, not a fight-tank-fight)...you don't have to be on a demo XC to fudge RAP.

Valid. In fact just the other day we ended up pre-vul tanking, fought ONE vul, then went home and training/scheduling said, "yeah but you tanked...so that's two RAP sorties." No it's not, now kill yourself. I even had one guy try to argue that the point of RAP was to just start the jet and take off, therefore every time you get airborne you should log RAP...he told me this after I just had a takeoff EP and landed. According to him I should log RAP for that "sortie"...retard.

[TAMInated]

WTFO? I've been out of the game for four years, but is this shit happening everywhere? Why would any self-respecting fighter pilot do that or tell someone else they should?

[brabus]

Why would any self-respecting fighter pilot do that or tell someone else they should?

Good question. It's become even worse in the recent past with how low our sortie rate is. The "get airborne = log RAP" idea is getting stronger as people reach more and more to make squares green on some powerpoint slide. The irony is this idea is even worse now that dudes aren't even flying at a BMC rate, yet some want them to log RAP on a flight that goes out to the airspace and turns right around for wx with no tactical training accomplished (and yes, they've already logged their one instrument RAP counter for the month). All that is accomplishing is making already NCMR pilots even more NCMR, if there is such a thing...I'm sure you get my point.

Dudes need to call a spade a spade, not log bullshit RAP, and not be afraid to let big AF know how 90% of the wing is NCMR for X,Y, Z reasons. Pencil whipping the shit out of RAP only makes us worse and less lethal.

[Jaded]

And if the DO tells the squadron to log those sorties as RAP or you don't fly?

[brabus]

And if the DO tells the squadron to log those sorties as RAP or you don't fly?

Is it more on a case-by-case basis with "those guys," i.e. log red air if they're scheduled to fly red, regardless of the fact they still got a couple BFM sets in (i.e. log BFM) or is it sq-wide and the "gear in the well = RAP" mentality no matter what? If it's the latter, then that's a shitty situation and bad on the DO.

Edited April 26, 2012 by brabus